Did Jesus Exist? (Pros and Cons)

[MagicKirk]

Besides, isn’t this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Aren’t you trying to do a little evangelizing of your own by starting this thread?

 

[MagicKirk]

This thread has nothing to do with shaking stereotypes and misconceptions concerning Jews.

 

[Sepharad]

Whenever someone tries to convert another to what they believe is the truth (whether that person is Catholic, Jew, Mormon, JW, or Muslim) that person is performing what they believe is a kindness. I can understand that you might have your own beliefs, but I don’t understand why you’d be offended by someone wanting to share,

Do you ever watch TV?

Have you seen a commercial that gets replayed every few minutes, so much so that it drives you batty and you just wish it would stop? Some examples might be: the former Head-On commercial, the Vonage commercial with the annoying sounds in the background, and the Verizon FIOS commercial with the talking flea.

Well, to me, the Christian message is like that. I’ve heard it so many times that I have long since reached saturation point. It BORES me. I have it memorized, in all 3 versions! Catholic, Protestant and JW.

I have heard it millions of times in the course of my life and it means nothing to me. When you hear something too many times, you start to tune it out and you want nothing to do with it.

 

[Eden]

Its not that it makes me unhappy; I have debated religious topics for 30 years with all kinds of people. This is nothing new to me.

Then “becoming increasingly hostile” is a feeling you enjoy?

But as for this forum, I stay to try to correct some of the very atrocious errors being stated about my people, my faith and our laws and customs. It appalls me how ignorant most Catholics seem to be of Jews, Judaism, and ancient Jewish customs and rituals. I’ve had some beg me not to leave, but to stay so they can consult me about these issues, and I’m glad to comply.

What does mocking elderly Catholic ladies, unapproved apparitions and the Miracle of Lanciano have to do with correcting atrocious errors about the Jewish people?

But the proselytization does get rather tiresome after a while.

Would you like some cheese with that whine? Just trying to interject some levity…

When you hear something too many times, you start to tune it out and you want nothing to do with it.

Around and around we go. It’s your choice to stay here.

 

[Sepharad]

Besides, isn’t this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Aren’t you trying to do a little evangelizing of your own by starting this thread?

No. Because I think at this point that Jesus probably did exist.

 

[Cathdefender]

“Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

 

[Sepharad]

Then “becoming increasingly hostile” is a feeling you enjoy?

What does mocking elderly Catholic ladies, unapproved apparitions and the Miracle of Lanciano have to do with correcting atrocious errors about the Jewish people?

Would you like some cheese with that whine? Just trying to interject some levity…

Around and around we go. It’s your choice to stay here.

Did you read the threads where I supposedly “mocked old Catholic ladies”? Because that’s not what I did, I simply related an experience my husband and I had in Quebec on vacation one year, when, on a tour, we went into the Shrine of St Anne De Beaupre, and saw a couple of elderly ladies praying to a statue, and holding the hand of it, and talking to it.

How was that “mocking”? I simply told what we saw.

As for the Lanciano thing, I said what I thought of it AFTER several Catholics kept pushing it at me, trying to convince me that I should “see the Catholic church is the truth” because of the Lanciano thing.

See, this is how it always works for Jews throughout the ages…all we ever asked was to be left alone, but Catholics kept trying to convert us, and when we told them WHY we did not want their religion, they accused US of “attacking” or “insulting” their religion. We can never win!

If you are going to take the initiative and try to convert people to your religion, you are going to have to suck it up when they critique your religion in the process of explaining WHY they don’t want to accept it.

I truly believe that certain ones among you will never be happy unless Jews quietly listen to your proselytization and then meekly convert.

Well, guess what? Its not gonna happen.

 

[Cathdefender]

Did you read the threads where I supposedly “mocked old Catholic ladies”? Because that’s not what I did, I simply related an experience my husband and I had in Quebec on vacation one year, when, on a tour, we went into the Shrine of St Anne De Beaupre, and saw a couple of elderly ladies praying to a statue, and holding the hand of it, and talking to it.

How was that “mocking”? I simply told what we saw.

As for the Lanciano thing, I said what I thought of it AFTER several Catholics kept pushing it at me, trying to convince me that I should “see the Catholic church is the truth” because of the Lanciano thing.

See, this is how it always works for Jews throughout the ages…all we ever asked was to be left alone, but Catholics kept trying to convert us, and when we told them WHY we did not want their religion, they accused US of “attacking” or “insulting” their religion. We can never win!

If you are going to take the initiative and try to convert people to your religion, you are going to have to suck it up when they critique your religion in the process of explaining WHY they don’t want to accept it.

I truly believe that certain ones among you will never be happy unless Jews quietly listen to your proselytization and then meekly convert.

Well, guess what? Its not gonna happen.

I haven’t seen the post about the elderly couple, but I have seen the post about the Miracle of Lanciano. You have stated that it turned your stomach and you have stated other rotten things about the Body of Christ. This is blasphemy and uncalled for on a Catholic forum.

 

[Eden]

Did you read the threads where I supposedly “mocked old Catholic ladies”? Because that’s not what I did, I simply related an experience my husband and I had in Quebec on vacation one year, when, on a tour, we went into the Shrine of St Anne De Beaupre, and saw a couple of elderly ladies praying to a statue, and holding the hand of it, and talking to it.

How was that “mocking”? I simply told what we saw.

You mocked them. Plain and simple. You said you were “shocked” that they “held hands” (?) with a statue and “spoke to it”. You mocked their behavior and said it gave the scandalous impression of idolatry. Yet, you were unwilling to comment on the outward appearances of people weeping before, talking to and caressing the Western Wall.

I’ve been in the shrine, and those are not ALL of the statues in there. There was one section in the middle, where there were statues lower to human level, and they even had kneelers placed right in front of them (which, of course, are used only to “remind” a person of that saint…)

It was there that we saw two elderly women talking to the statue, and in one case, grasping the hand of one of them.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=244293&page=6

As for Lanciano thing, I said what I thought of it AFTER several Catholics kept pushing it at me, trying to convince me that I should “see the Catholic is the truth” because of the Lanciano thing.

I have also seen you mocking the Eucharist, calling it “worship of flesh and blood”. And I don’t see the thread in which you were told to accept Catholicism based on the Miracle of Lanciano.

If Catholics do not worship blood and flesh (or should I say, the belief that bread and wine become flesh and blood), why do you have Benediction services, where hymns and sung to a wafer inside a monstrance?

I tend to agree. Something you said (I think it was you) I also wanted to second: that it seems that only Catholics have been allowed to investigate or study this so-called piece of flesh that bleeds. Ditto for the alleged shroud of Turin.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=242595&page=3

For someone who has found the understanding of Judaism here “atrocious”, your attacks against Catholicism stand out ever larger in bold!!!

See, this is how it always works for Jews throughout the ages…all we ever asked was to be left alone, but Catholics kept trying to convert us, and when we told them WHY we did not want their religionl they accused US of attacking or insulting their religion.

Left alone? *You *came here. We didn’t seek you out. And you most certainly have attacked and insulted our faith, aside and apart from what ever claims you make to have predicated those attacks. Let’s weed through the excuses as to why, and leave them for a moment, do you agree that you have attacked our faith? Or is saying that we “worship blood and flesh” a compliment?

If you are going to take the initiative and try to convert people to your religion, you are going to have to suck it up when they critique your religion in the process of explaining WHY they don’t want to accept it.

And the same isn’t true of someone who wants to defend their religion on a *Catholic *forum? It goes both ways. Also, I would hardly call it “taking the initiative” since you sought us out, not vice versa.

 

[Sepharad]

I haven’t seen the post about the elderly couple, but I have seen the post about the Miracle of Lanciano. You have stated that it turned your stomach and you have stated other rotten things about the Body of Christ. This is blasphemy and uncalled for on a Catholic forum.

People were presenting it to me as something glorious, and I tried to be HONEST about how it made me feel, and I remember that even a few Catholics said it turned them off, too!

Would you rather I lie? Don’t you want honesty? I told my honest, gut reaction to the thing.

You know something? I have to say something I have noticed here.

In the last 30 years that I have debated religious subjects (with Buddhists, Hindus, messianics, evangelicals, Catholics), the only one of the named groups that got this touchy and took things this personally, were the Catholics.

What does this mean? Usually when someone is ultra touchy about even the slightest critiquing of their religious dogmas, it reflects an insecurity of sorts. Because I have never seen this level of touchiness in any other religious group. I have never even seen it in debates between secular and religious Jews.

Maybe, if Catholics are not emotionally able to handle honest criticism of their doctrines, they should not be pushing them in a forum designed for APOLOGETICS?

After all, this is not simply a board for Catholics to get together and share beliefs with each other. If it were that kind of forum, I would not even be here. But this forum is designed for religious DEBATE, is it not?

The stated purpose is to proselytize the Catholic religion, to gain adherents and bring back ex-Catholics.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but in order to do that, you are going to need to develop a much thicker skin, because when you try to make others see your religion as worth joining, you are going to have to be willing to handle hearing their objections to it.

 

[Eden]

People were presenting it to me as something glorious, and I tried to be HONEST about how it made me feel, and I remember that even a few Catholics said it turned them off, too!

Would you rather I lie? Don’t you want honesty? I told my honest, gut reaction to the thing.

Being honest doesn’t mean being rude.

 

[Eden]

You know something? I have to say something I have noticed here.

In the last 30 years that I have debated religious subjects (with Buddhists, Hindus, messianics, evangelicals, Catholics), the only one of the named groups that got this touchy and took things this personally, were the Catholics.

What does this mean? Usually when someone is ultra touchy about even the slightest critiquing of their religious dogmas, it reflects an insecurity of sorts. Because I have never seen this level of touchiness in any other religious group. I have never even seen it in debates between secular and religious Jews.

Maybe, if Catholics are not emotionally able to handle honest criticism of their doctrines, they should not be pushing them in a forum designed for APOLOGETICS?

After all, this is not simply a board for Catholics to get together and share beliefs with each other. If it were that kind of forum, I would not even be here. But this forum is designed for religious DEBATE, is it not?

The stated purpose is to proselytize the Catholic religion, to gain adherents and bring back ex-Catholics.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but in order to do that, you are going to need to develop a much thicker skin, because when you try to make others see your religion as worth joining, you are going to have to be willing to handle hearing their objections to it.

Right. It’s our fault you’ve been so rude. There is a difference between honest dialogue and debate and simply being mean-spirited and rude. I think it really unkind to talk about old ladies who were having a moment of meditation and prayer, and to detail their behavior which you were ogling for the purposes of mockery. I also think it’s unkind to make light of old ladies on buses who cross themselves when they pass a church or hear an ambulance. I don’t see how this adds anything to the dialogue. It’s these instances in particular which just rub me the wrong way, as nothing short of mean-spirited and cruel with no other purpose. Would you find it clever if I laughed at seeing old men wailing in front of a wall? The mockery of our faith as “worshiping blood and flesh” is just kind of the icing on the cake of the rude behavior from you, our guest.

Have you read the rules that you agreed to when you signed up… twice?

 

[Cathdefender]

People were presenting it to me as something glorious, and I tried to be HONEST about how it made me feel, and I remember that even a few Catholics said it turned them off, too!

Would you rather I lie? Don’t you want honesty? I told my honest, gut reaction to the thing.

You know something? I have to say something I have noticed here.

In the last 30 years that I have debated religious subjects (with Buddhists, Hindus, messianics, evangelicals, Catholics), the only one of the named groups that got this touchy and took things this personally, were the Catholics.

What does this mean? Usually when someone is ultra touchy about even the slightest critiquing of their religious dogmas, it reflects an insecurity of sorts. Because I have never seen this level of touchiness in any other religious group. I have never even seen it in debates between secular and religious Jews.

Maybe, if Catholics are not emotionally able to handle honest criticism of their doctrines, they should not be pushing them in a forum designed for APOLOGETICS?

After all, this is not simply a board for Catholics to get together and share beliefs with each other. If it were that kind of forum, I would not even be here. But this forum is designed for religious DEBATE, is it not?

The stated purpose is to proselytize the Catholic religion, to gain adherents and bring back ex-Catholics.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but in order to do that, you are going to need to develop a much thicker skin, because when you try to make others see your religion as worth joining, you are going to have to be willing to handle hearing their objections to it.

You must add that “Catholics have said it turned them off to”. I do not believe you. You always throw in "well, the Catholics this " or “the Catholics that”. I am happy that the only group that were touchy WERE the Catholics. You just proved to me that we defend our faith and take it more seriously than anyone else.

 

[Sepharad]

You must add that “Catholics have said it turned them off to”. I do not believe you. You always throw in "well, the Catholics this " or “the Catholics that”. I am happy that the only group that were touchy WERE the Catholics. You just proved to me that we defend our faith and take it more seriously than anyone else.

Not only did a couple of admitted Catholics say it turned them off too, but you replied (under your former “righteousone” handle), accusing them of not being “true Catholics” because they felt that way.

 

[Eden]

You must add that “Catholics have said it turned them off to”. I do not believe you. You always throw in "well, the Catholics this " or “the Catholics that”. I am happy that the only group that were touchy WERE the Catholics. You just proved to me that we defend our faith and take it more seriously than anyone else.

I actually saw someone make the comment that S is speaking of. I think they were Catholic. A sad moment indeed. I can’t say that calling it “icky” or whatever the term was that was used was the most mature moment on CA.

 

[Cathdefender]

Not only did a couple of admitted Catholics say it turned them off too, but you replied (under your former “righteousone” handle), accusing them of not being “true Catholics” because they felt that way.

My former handle as you put it was not Righteousone. And if any Catholic feels sick to his stomach as you put it about the Miracle of Lanciano, let him come forth and admit such.

 

[Sepharad]

My former handle as you put it was not Righteousone. And if any Catholic feels sick to his stomach as you put it about the Miracle of Lanciano, let him come forth and admit such.

You don’t have to believe me, just use the search feature of this forum and find that thread.

Here, I’ll make it easy for you:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=242595&page=4&highlight=lanciano

Check the posts by timotheos and thistgal (I think that is her handle.)

 

[Cathdefender]

I actually saw someone make the comment that S is speaking of. I think they were Catholic. A sad moment indeed. I can’t say that calling it “icky” or whatever the term was that was used was the most mature moment on CA.

Well, I think it’s sad that a Catholic, after not even investigating this supernatural event because he could not have possibly have done so if he felt like that… . Is sad indeed.

 

[Sepharad]

Well, I think it’s sad that a Catholic, after not even investigating this supernatural event because he could not have possibly have done so if he felt like that… . Is sad indeed.

Both thistgal and timeotheos (and I think some others) said they either found it distasteful or ridiculous (don’t quote me, I’m doing this from memory!), and they are Catholics:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=242595&page=4&highlight=lanciano

 

[MagicKirk]

Perhaps some would find it “distasteful” that God would allow the Red Sea swallow up the Egyptian soldiers, causing the death of many. They might have been horrified by what they considered the many deaths. Others, perhaps you included, might say that it was a miracle and a sign of the power of God. (I would agree)
Eurcharistic miracles are no different. It might not be YOUR miracle of choice, but they are nonetheless miracles. Who are we to dismiss or belittle the power of God? Can you say with absolute certainty that you KNOW the evidence presented concerning the Eucharistic miracle is false and can be dismissed out of hand? Without such certainty, perhaps its not wise to ridicule or dismiss the possiblility.