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Dan_Defender
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Not the leader/founder/inner circle.
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Dan_Defender
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You are missing the point that in such cult episodes the leader’s insanity got all of them killed. I find the comparison offensive. You are not doing atheists any favor by resorting to such tactics. Please do not reply to my posts you will be ignored.Ummm - Jonestown? Waco? I’m not comparing the founders with Jesus, just pointing out that religious commitment ceding to death is not uncommon, even today.
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FiveLinden
Guest
No offence intended, as I made clear. But the point is that many people of many religions are committed to the point of giving up their lives.
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Montrose
Guest
That is an individual opinion and NOT the Church position.Pope Pius XI said that the Shroud was for certain authentic. As I have said, he did not come to this conclusion lightly, but only after years of study and research. His opinion is good enough for me, and intensive scientific investigations have not been able to find anything that would preclude authenticity
Science has not proven this to be the burial cloth of Christ.
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Montrose
Guest
Science has NOT proven the Shroud to be genuine. That is an untrue statement.The Catholic Church does not, as a rule, endorse any relic.
The scientific evidence that the Shroud is authentic is overwhelming, but if you refuse to see that, no one can force you to. I do not understand why any Catholic would think themselves smarter or more educated on this subject than such a great Pope of the Catholic Church.
The Pope’s opinion is just that - his opinion.
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Montrose
Guest
Go into the actual threads which are only about the Shroud and you will see how this so-called evidence has been refuted.I don not know what more evidence anyone who believes in the resurrection could want, but, apparently all this is not enough for some Catholics.
You might also want to read these:
You don’t have to download the PDF file (you can if you want to) but just scroll down and read the text online.
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Montrose
Guest
I followed all the threads carefully and I find him very creditable, certainly more than his opposite number in the threads who I seem to recall was called deadrat. I haven’t seen him/her for a long time. You are not him/her back under another name???I have already reviewed Mr. Farey’s papers (under my old shoes now) and found them to be full of misinformation and unscientific statements. No one in the world of sindonology takes him seriously.
In my discussions with Mr. Farey I noticed a deep antipathy towards the Catholic Church and a modernist leaning which denies that Jesus actually performed any miracles.
I am surprised that you would quote some one like this. I refuted all of the arguments that he presented on CAF and also discovered that he is only a high school science teacher, not a real scientist at all.
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FiveLinden
Guest
The Shroud of Turin, if it is indeed the imprint of a human body, and even if it is a miraculous imprint of a human body, does not tell us that it is the shroud and imprint of Jesus. It might, for example, be the shroud and imprint of St Peter. Or the good thief. Or any of the other thousands crucified.
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FiveLinden
Guest
Where does this information come from? E.g. ‘not normally scourged’.
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FiveLinden
Guest
So you have reasoned to this view based on what information about how Romans scourged?Scourging is such a severe injury that it can even result in the death of the victim, and it is probably the reason that Jesus died after only a few hours on the cross. The whole point of crucifixion is that it is a torture that will go on for as long as three days with no effort on the part of the executioner. That does not happen if a preliminary scourging is inflicted.
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FiveLinden
Guest
Thanks I just wasn’t aware that this level of detail was known. I’ve read a lot of assertions but actual facts seem to be fairly hard to come by (as are facts about most things in 29 CE.
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Hugh_Farey
Guest
Greetings to you all!
Rather, I suspect, to everyone’s surprise, I have no doubt at all that Jesus existed, and that his Resurrection from the dead was the trigger that set off Christian expansion across the world for the next two thousand years or so. I explore this in an essay in The Medieval Shroud 3, at academia.edu.
However, as some have noticed, I also have no doubt at all that the Shroud of Turin is a medieval fabrication. I think I have argued my case carefully, and correspond frequently with most of the other leading researchers into the subject, so I am intrigued by Mr Silly’s comments that my work is “full of misinformation” and “unscientific statements” and wonder how he knows that “no one in the world of sindonology takes him seriously.” If Mr Silly is a new identity for UndeadRat, then I have to say that he has never refuted any of my arguments. And what’s this “only a high school science teacher, not a real scientist at all”? How rude. On behalf of high school science teachers everywhere, I’d like to claim that we are indeed ‘real scientists’, usually with a greater breadth of knowledge than any number of ‘mere’ laboratory workers, who tend to be very restricted in their particular fields of expertise.
FiveLinden - Roman crucifixion procedures are extremely poorly documented, so almost nothing can be stated with confidence. Such contemporary mentions as we have (principally Josephus, for Jewish crucifixions) do indeed suggest that scourging sometimes killed its victims, but that crucifixion was at least sometimes intended to last for days. The rapid demise of Jesus may have been related to the fact that he was scourged before being condemned to crucifixion, so the scourgers didn’t know when to stop. Nevertheless, they were not so severe as to prevent Jesus from carrying his cross. In fact Pilate, who had instructed both punishments and knew very well what they entailed, was surprised that Jesus had died so soon. Some people think that he was complicit in a plot to rescue Jesus before he died, that Jesus was in fact rescued, and that the Shroud image is that of a living man. I do not subscribe to that, but it is a well respected view among many authenticists.
Rather, I suspect, to everyone’s surprise, I have no doubt at all that Jesus existed, and that his Resurrection from the dead was the trigger that set off Christian expansion across the world for the next two thousand years or so. I explore this in an essay in The Medieval Shroud 3, at academia.edu.
However, as some have noticed, I also have no doubt at all that the Shroud of Turin is a medieval fabrication. I think I have argued my case carefully, and correspond frequently with most of the other leading researchers into the subject, so I am intrigued by Mr Silly’s comments that my work is “full of misinformation” and “unscientific statements” and wonder how he knows that “no one in the world of sindonology takes him seriously.” If Mr Silly is a new identity for UndeadRat, then I have to say that he has never refuted any of my arguments. And what’s this “only a high school science teacher, not a real scientist at all”? How rude. On behalf of high school science teachers everywhere, I’d like to claim that we are indeed ‘real scientists’, usually with a greater breadth of knowledge than any number of ‘mere’ laboratory workers, who tend to be very restricted in their particular fields of expertise.
FiveLinden - Roman crucifixion procedures are extremely poorly documented, so almost nothing can be stated with confidence. Such contemporary mentions as we have (principally Josephus, for Jewish crucifixions) do indeed suggest that scourging sometimes killed its victims, but that crucifixion was at least sometimes intended to last for days. The rapid demise of Jesus may have been related to the fact that he was scourged before being condemned to crucifixion, so the scourgers didn’t know when to stop. Nevertheless, they were not so severe as to prevent Jesus from carrying his cross. In fact Pilate, who had instructed both punishments and knew very well what they entailed, was surprised that Jesus had died so soon. Some people think that he was complicit in a plot to rescue Jesus before he died, that Jesus was in fact rescued, and that the Shroud image is that of a living man. I do not subscribe to that, but it is a well respected view among many authenticists.
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Elf01
Guest
The bones of those crucified with Jesus were broken so that they would die before the sabbath. That would imply that, at least in this case, the crucifixion was intended to be quick.FiveLinden - Roman crucifixion procedures are extremely poorly documented, so almost nothing can be stated with confidence. Such contemporary mentions as we have (principally Josephus, for Jewish crucifixions) do indeed suggest that scourging sometimes killed its victims, but that crucifixion was at least sometimes intended to last for days.
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Hugh_Farey
Guest
Well, one has to wonder how long they would have survived if their legs hadn’t been broken. Any punishment intrinsically long-drawn-out can be shortened to suit local conditions, I guess.
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