Did Jesus give His life on the Cross so that we could be "free" in the "Bill of Rights" and "Declaration of Independence" sense of "freedom"?

[Bartolome_Casas]

As I see it, the principle of “freedom” as expressed in the Bill of Rights (first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution of 1789), in the Declaration of Independence (issued in 1776 by Continental Congress of the 13 states of the U.S.), and as found in the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to the U.S. Constitution of 1789, is all about these things:

–Freedom to worship or believe religiously as one wishes, including the freedom to no have no religious belief or worship.
–Freedom to start businesses as one wishes, be employed as one wishes, dismiss employees as one wishes, and freely buy and sell with other parties in the Free Market as one wishes.
–Freedom from high government taxation.
–Freedom to freely express and publish one’s thoughts and opinions, even if government leaders or a majority of the people hate what you are saying.
–Freedom of adults to associate with other adults, in public or private, however they wish.
–Freedom of the majority to elect and un-elect government leaders, and to even change the Constitution.
–Freedom of adults to marry whoever they wish, and divorce whomever they wish, without having to ask the approval of anyone (this one does not seem to be in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, but most Americans now consider this to be an essential part of their “freedom” as Americans).

SO, are those “freedoms” what Jesus came, suffered and died for?

WHY do I ask?

Because on the radio, on TV, and the Internet, I hear many Catholics and other Christians speak as if those freedoms are what Jesus died for! These commentators and pundits then attempt to rally Catholics and other Christians to various political causes, crusades, and campaigns to “take back our freedoms” based on the theory that the Christian religion is all or mostly about winning and safeguarding these freedoms.

BY CONTRAST, when I read the Four Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, I see NOTHING about a fighting wars or engaging in political campaigns to win, defend, or safeguard these freedoms, or to spread these freedoms to other nations where they are lacking.

So, what’s up? Are these politicos trying to “co-opt” (pervert, twist) the Holy Faith? Are they trying to hijack the Catholic Church and use it for their political purposes?

What do you think?

Did Jesus come to the world, teach, suffer, die and rise from the dead so that we could have lower taxes, or so that we could have the freedom to skip Mass, freedom to watch porno, freedom to gamble at casinos, freedom to buy lotto tickets, freedom to easily divorce when we meet somebody we like better, freedom to pass on gigantic inheritances to children without the government taking any of it by an inheritance tax, freedom to to go strip clubs, freedom to start and promote a religious cult, freedom to start a radio talk show that dispenses inflammatory half-truths for three hours per day, freedom to buy and use contraceptives, and so on?

In short, did Jesus die so that we can be free in the American Libertarian sense of “freedom,” as expressed in the American Revolution era flag that says “Don’t Tread On Me” with an image coiled, threatening serpent?

 

[Seeker1961]

I don’t believe that Jesus wanted anything to do with politics, based on His attitudes toward those who wanted to make Him into a political leader.

What Jesus died for is so much bigger that who wins the next election. All this who’s right and who’s wrong in Washington is so petty when we look at it in proportion to eternity.

Yes, I do believe that many politicians have figured out enough “Chrisitaneze” to fool people into believing that they are advocates for the True Faith. They’re not. They want people’s votes, they want their money and they want power for themselves.

Jesus died to save us from our sins, so we would understand His amazing love for us and that we would change our lives in response to that love. No matter who wins or loses an election, that doesn’t change.

 

[someperson555]

Yes, they are just trying twsit the meaning of christianity to support their agenda. american conservativism is quite anti-thetical to true christianity.

another thing,
the bill of rights incorrectly uses the word “freedom”. the bill of rights doesnt contain “freedoms” it contains “rights”. rights are the opposite of freedom, since a "right’ is something which is bestowed upon you by a higher authority in exchange for your subjugation, therefore having rights makes you a slave. so the conservatives not only twist the true meaning of christianity, but they also misuse terms like “freedom”.
plus, the bill of rights is based on capitalist and democratic principles which are very anti-thetical to christianity.

 

[livingwordunity]

I don’t believe that Jesus wanted anything to do with politics, based on His attitudes toward those who wanted to make Him into a political leader.

What Jesus died for is so much bigger that who wins the next election. All this who’s right and who’s wrong in Washington is so petty when we look at it in proportion to eternity.

Yes, I do believe that many politicians have figured out enough “Chrisitaneze” to fool people into believing that they are advocates for the True Faith. They’re not. They want people’s votes, they want their money and they want power for themselves.

Jesus died to save us from our sins, so we would understand His amazing love for us and that we would change our lives in response to that love. No matter who wins or loses an election, that doesn’t change.

When Pontius Pilate asked the crowd “which one do you want me to release to you, Barabbas, or Jesus called Messiah?”, would the one who says, “I’m not going to vote for either one because I’m too good to have any part of politics.” Would that person be any better than the ones who yelled out “crucify him!”?

Jesus was involved with politics because he was crucified by a popular vote. That’s why we should be involved in politics and why it does matter who we vote for.

 

[Seeker1961]

When Pontius Pilate asked the crowd “which one do you want me to release to you, Barabbas, or Jesus called Messiah?”, would the one who says, “I’m not going to vote for either one because I’m too good to have any part of politics.” Would that person be any better than the ones who yelled out “crucify him!”?

Jesus was involved with politics because he was crucified by a popular vote. That’s why we should be involved in politics and why it does matter who we vote for.

I’m sorry but I’m not following that at all.

I was thinking of descriptions of events like the one in John Chapter 6 where Jesus fled the crowd that wanted to make Him king, and the repeated disputes between Jesus and the religious leaders of the day who were the “political” power. Even under Roman rule, the religious leaders still had a great deal of power, and Jesus doesn’t seem to be much of a fan of those people and their practices.

If you want to be involved in politics, have at it- but don’t give it power or significance that it can never have and be careful of the politician who wants to be your Savior. He/she may have just learned the right words.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

To me, Catholics should vote, for the best people possible.

But I see a HUGE danger in which political pundits, commentators, radio talk show folk, TV talk show folk, MISLEAD people into thinking that Christ died to promote Free Market Economics, or to promote Lower Taxes, or to promote the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

All those things may be good things, but, as far as I can see by reading the Four Gospels, and the Catechism, they are NOT the reason Jesus Christ came to this world, taught, suffered, died and rose again on the third day, and gave St. Peter the keys.

It’s as if these political people want to rewrite the Bible and put the words of the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence into the mouth of Jesus!

 

[kevinerose]

Jesus said to give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. In the epistles, we are taught to be content and do as your governement leaders direct you, or what your master tells you, or what your boss tells you, etc. And that these leaders are also responsible even more so to their people and to treat your subjects good.

In America, you are the leader. The People are above the President, Congress, or the Judicial branch. We the People are responsible. The government’s duty is to do what the people ask of them. Thus as the people we are responsible according to the bible to make decisions and so to vote. In voting, we must vote for good of the people. So in doing so, we must vote in line with God’s will. And as Catholics, that means voting our faith. And if you are not in line with the Church, you may want to rethink your stance. If you are voting against Church teaching, you may want to reconsider.

 

[Seeker1961]

Have you seen the painting of Jesus handing the Constitutuon to George Washington?

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

To me, when Catholics and other Christian get more focused on political activism than on Mission of the Church, or when they get misled into thinking that the Mission of the Church IS political activism, everything goes wrong and gets worse.

What the Mission of the Church? Based on the New Testament and the Catechism, it seems to be this: Leading individual souls (one’s own soul, and the souls of others) to:
-Love of God
-Love of Neighbor
-Practice of forgiveness
-Personal Humility
-Faith
-Repentance/Penance
-Conversion
-Baptism
-The Church
-The Mass
-Practice of all the Virtues, and Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy.

By contrast, Politics is about defeating political enemies and opponents in elections and forcing on these enemies and opponents laws and wars they hate, at least until the next election, at which time the tables may be turned, and these enemies and opponents may gain the upper hand in the voting and will be able to force repugnant laws and wars on the former victors.

 

[kevinerose]

Have you seen the painting of Jesus handing the Constitutuon to George Washington?

USA is really quite a miracle in itself. It is designed with the bible in mind and meant to reflect the trinity with the 3 branches. It is a culmination of all the theological and phyllosophy of the time.

In less than 100 years, Darwin came with his ideas. Now Man wishes to replace God on the throne. That is why they want America to fail. They want USA to be transformed into the image of Man. I personally do not want to follow the path of Satan.

 

[kevinerose]

To me, when Catholics and other Christian get more focused on political activism than on Mission of the Church, or when they get misled into thinking that the Mission of the Church IS political activism, everything goes wrong and gets worse.

What the Mission of the Church? Based on the New Testament and the Catechism, it seems to be this: Leading individual souls (one’s own soul, and the souls of others) to:
-Love of God
-Love of Neighbor
-Practice of forgiveness
-Personal Humility
-Faith
-Repentance/Penance
-Conversion
-Baptism
-The Church
-The Mass
-Practice of all the Virtues, and Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy.

By contrast, Politics is about defeating political enemies and opponents in elections and forcing on these enemies and opponents laws and wars they hate, at least until the next election, at which time the tables may be turned, and these enemies and opponents may gain the upper hand in the voting and will be able to force repugnant laws and wars on the former victors.

You are forgetting 2 huge items on your list:
Obedience
Righteous Judgement

 

[Mintaka]

Going back to the original question –

Jesus died to deliver us from sin, and to make us Christ-like. Christ-like people are always supposed to be trying to do good things and teach good things. One of those good things is to be a good citizen of the country you live in, so far as that is consistent with Christianity. And frankly, the early Church Fathers thought it was consistent with all sorts of crazy regimes, including the pagan Roman Empire.

So… obviously the US “be a good citizen” thing is not anywhere near as challenging.

Freedom is a good thing, because it allows us to make more good choices, and have greater scope for doing good deeds and giving glory to God.

It is possible to go overboard with this (ie, the heresy of Americanism), but American concepts of rights and liberties come from a tradition of law and philosophy and religion that was promulgated and supported by great thinkers and saints like St. Robert Bellarmine (who was studied by our Founding Fathers). Vatican II, for all its faults, articulates this very clearly, but it’s also very clearly in the tradition of many papal encyclicals on the matter of freedom and justice for all.

Second, I’m pretty shocked that somebody calling himself by the handle “Bartolome Casas” would speak against the importance of natural law and just government. Don’t you know about the whole Spanish scholarly movement by people like Suarez, and their students, like de la Casas, to make the Spanish government and its colonies more just and more free for the king’s subjects?

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Have you seen the painting of Jesus handing the Constitutuon to George Washington?

Good one.

But I HAVE seen the painting that George Washington in his Freemason outfit. That’s is a real painting, not a joke.

 

[livingwordunity]

When Pontius Pilate asked the crowd “which one do you want me to release to you, Barabbas, or Jesus called Messiah?”, would the one who says, “I’m not going to vote for either one because I’m too good to have any part of politics.” Would that person be any better than the ones who yelled out “crucify him!”?

Jesus was involved with politics because he was crucified by a popular vote. That’s why we should be involved in politics and why it does matter who we vote for.

I’m sorry but I’m not following that at all.

I was thinking of descriptions of events like the one in John Chapter 6 where Jesus fled the crowd that wanted to make Him king, and the repeated disputes between Jesus and the religious leaders of the day who were the “political” power. Even under Roman rule, the religious leaders still had a great deal of power, and Jesus doesn’t seem to be much of a fan of those people and their practices.

If you want to be involved in politics, have at it- but don’t give it power or significance that it can never have and be careful of the politician who wants to be your Savior. He/she may have just learned the right words.

You aren’t following because you chose to ignore what I said.

 

[Seeker1961]

Good one.

But I HAVE seen the painting that George Washington in his Freemason outfit. That’s is a real painting, not a joke.

So is the Constitution painting…it’s for real and the people who are hanging it their homes don’t think it’s a joke. They believe that the Constitution is divinely inspired in the same way the Bible is and view the Founders as divine.

It’s an extreme position that frankly scares me a bit.

 

[someperson555]

So is the Constitution painting…it’s for real and the people who are hanging it their homes don’t think it’s a joke. They believe that the Constitution is divinely inspired in the same way the Bible is and view the Founders as divine.

It’s an extreme position that frankly scares me a bit.

lol, they think the constitution is a papal encyclical

 

[livingwordunity]

The OP is a straw man argument. It’s a false dichotomy to ask, “do you want Jesus or do you want freedom?” There are some good aspects to the US Constitution that are compatible with our Catholic faith, and there are some unjust laws such as abortion that go directly against the Catholic faith.

 

[Seeker1961]

You aren’t following because you chose to ignore what I said.

I did NOT ignore what you said-I did not make the same connection that you did between the people calling for Jesus over Barabbas and our current system of voting. I still don’t.

I also did NOT say there was anything wrong with voting or being involved in politics. What I did warn against was giving politics and politicians honor or power that does not belong to them. I also warned about politicians who will learn the right words to say and will fool many people into thinking they are someone they are not.

Methinks you’re getting defensive for no reason.

 

[reconman]

In short, did Jesus die so that we can be free in the American Libertarian sense of “freedom,” as expressed in the American Revolution era

No they entirely unrelated. God gave every human these “unalienable rights.”

It has nothing whatever to do with religion or creed of any sort.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

You are forgetting 2 huge items on your list:
Obedience
Righteous Judgement

Well, good point, honorable forum co-member. Part of the Mission of the Church is to lead and teach people (both its own members, and whatever converts it can win) to OBEY the commandments of God.

But, on the other hand, do we want the STATE to replace the CHURCH and GOD in imposing Righteous Judgment and forcing obedience to God and the Church?

The STATE operates by LAW and FORCE. That is all the STATE has, as far as I can see. Legislators pass laws. Congress authorizes military missions to FORCE some solution in other countries, and the President oversees the military to see that this force is carried out. The STATE’s police and courts enforce the LAW. FORCE all the State has, as far as I can see.

By contrast, the GOD and the CHURCH are about VOLUNTARY SUBMISSION to the Truth and to the Commandments, and ultimately to the person of Jesus Christ. The State cannot make anyone love God or love neighbor.

It seems that the FORCE of the STATE only gets us so far. For example, we have laws against marijuana, yet every high school kid in the U.S. can get and smoke marijuana whenever he wants, without much difficulty. It seems like righteousness cannot be forced on a nation or society.

When politics and political activism becomes the main focus of Catholics and other Christians, the Mission of the Church is neglected. It seems like only the Mission of the Church, which, to use the words of Blessed John Paul II, “proposes but never imposes,” can save a soul or save a nation.

The State cannot change hearts and minds. Politics cannot change hearts and minds, because the Holy Spirit does not operate through politics. Politics is like a football game–the point is to defeat the opponent, NOT win them over to God.

Longing to use the force of the state to save the nation or save souls seems to be what politics and political activism is all about. It seems mostly misguided.

The Church saves. Jesus saves.

The State does not save. The Party does not save. Politics does not save.