P
Pugsly
Guest
Dear Father,
ὤφθη δὲ αὐτῷ ἄγγελος ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ ἐνισχύων αὐτὸν. καὶ γενόμενος ἐν ἀγωνίᾳ ἐκτενέστερον προσηύχετο. ἐγένετο δὲ ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος καταβαίνοντες ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν.
Translation (RSV)
And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
[Almost every translation I’ve found implies that the appearance of an angel caused the strengthening. If Jesus has access to the full glory of God…why would the appearance of a mere angel give any kind of solace? ]
Code:
You mentioned that Jesus had access to the beatific vision throughout His lifetime. When I questioned this, you pointed to Thomas Aquinas. No doubt, you and St Thomas and Holy Mother Church are far more educated than I. Yet, it seems quite clear to me on many levels that Jesus Christ did NOT have such a powerful aid. Here are a few objections that St Thomas did not raise in his self examination of the issue.-
Code:
Direct contrary evidence in Scripture
ὤφθη δὲ αὐτῷ ἄγγελος ἀπ’ οὐρανοῦ ἐνισχύων αὐτὸν. καὶ γενόμενος ἐν ἀγωνίᾳ ἐκτενέστερον προσηύχετο. ἐγένετο δὲ ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος καταβαίνοντες ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν.
Translation (RSV)
And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
[Almost every translation I’ve found implies that the appearance of an angel caused the strengthening. If Jesus has access to the full glory of God…why would the appearance of a mere angel give any kind of solace? ]
- And Jesus went up the mountain to pray……Why? Scripture shows us that Jesus separated Himself from human activity to achieve a closer communion with the Father. The full Beatific vision would require no special action to enhance.
- Jesus repeatedly taught the disciples to rely on Faith……when Peter began to sink beneath the water, Jesus asked him “Why did you doubt?” This greatly implies that Jesus Himself was relying on Faith. “If you had Faith as big as a tiny mustard seed you could say to this mulberry tree “Be uprooted and planted in the sea and it would obey you”. Constant access to the Beatific vision would make Jesus NO EXAMPLE of Faith or Hope.
- Scripture tells us that “all of us with unveiled faces will be transformed from glory unto glory” by the Beatific vision. In other words, the vision of God’s glory is an increasingly transformative rapture….yet we see the Suffering Servant pouring out everything……almost to the point of pouring out His humanity “I am a worm and no man”.
With respect and asking for your patience Father, may I please give one more kind of argument? This argument is based on kenosis:
Code:
Therefore, all of God’s extroverted virtues, like Justice and unrestrained Power, sought full expression “upward and outward”. Likewise, all His recessive virtues, like Humility, Trust and Patience sought complete expression “downward” toward the meek humanity of Jesus on the Cross. “There is no greater Love than this than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.”
Apparently, this downward expression of God toward the physical Person of His Son—Jesus--brought everything “in-between” God and the physical into existence—which is a pretty broad spectrum. “Through Him all things came into being”.
The take home point is: the Wise path of creation is defined by the absolute humility of Jesus Who ends up in the lowest place by design. And, it is here that human beings stand at the end of a long funnel of spiritual creation as it blends into the non-spiritual and non-volitional. Yet, the Light of God came to us—the least spiritual, barely volitional animals. And, as a witness to His arrival at this least point of creation, Jesus describes Himself as the “Son of Man”. With a touch of Hebrew hyperbole, the suffering servant text further proclaims “I am a worm and no man”.
If I may point out just one more theological argument, God is the source of every virtue so where did perfect Faith and Trust and Hope come from? May I submit that the Father is the source of all EXPRESSIVE VIRTUES…ie…absolute physical power, Justice, etc…….while Jesus is the source of all RECESSIVE VIRTUES…ie….absolute Mercy, Patience, Humility…etc….yet the Holy Spirit is the source of all the consequent virtues= DIVINE RELATIONAL VIRTUES…..ie…LOVE, Obedience, Trust, Hope….etc.
Hence, God’s one, perfect Act expressed “upward” in the Father (Justice) and “downward” in the kenosis of the Son Jesus (Mercy) and is an ongoing expression through the Church via the Holy Spirit…where many sons are formed in the virtues….eg....”to consider Wisdom is the perfection of prudence”. However, the created beings ARE NOT THE SOURCE OF THE VIRTUES….but are rather clothed by the Holy Spirit in these virtues by “works”.
Now, all of this begs the question…..Did the Holy Spirit exist eternally? I believe God is Triune from all eternity……However, if you posit that Jesus is not the source/expression of perfect Trust (because He always had full access to the beatific vision on Earth) then you have a serious theological quandary trying to explain where and how such virtues pre-existed created beings.
Father, with honor and respect, these are just a few of my objections to the notion that the Suffering Servant had access to the source of all bliss.