Did Jesus have Faith?

[Bookcat]

My intention is not to argue theology with you, I believe that the scriptures say that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God had (has) faith in His heavenly Father. “I trust in him” is refering to the real trust that the Son of God has in the Father.

As far as Gal.2:16 and Gal.2:20 and the correct translation:

I do think it is possible to translate these verses as: 'we are justified by Jesus Christ’s faith" and “the life I now live in the flesh, I live by the Son of God’s faith, who loved me and has given his life for me.”

The peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

Such has been at least the common understanding of Theologians (such as St. Thomas) and it very much makes sense…for Jesus had ‘the science of vision’…he did not need the theological virtue of Faith…and of course he is the Son of God…the second person of the Blessed Trinity…

The various Scriptures pointed to are using the term differently than our use of the infused theological virtue of Faith.

As for the last…yes I have seen such argued…It may be “possible” to translate it as such…but that is not how it is normally translated…and not how Pope Benedict XVI been quoting it and giving it to the Church for meditation…it is our faith in him…

In any case…Jesus is the leader and perfecter of “our Faith”…he sees…and we trust him. Let us both follow him in joy and great Faith!

 

[NotWorthy]

My intention is not to argue theology with you, I believe that the scriptures say that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God had (has) faith in His heavenly Father. “I trust in him” is refering to the real trust that the Son of God has in the Father.

But doesn’t Jesus state that “I and the Father are One”. That would make one assume that the Father doesn’t actually fit under the “things unseen” clause.

 

[zarthan]

But doesn’t Jesus state that “I and the Father are One”. That would make one assume that the Father doesn’t actually fit under the “things unseen” clause.

The ‘unseen’ would be the church that would be born out his pierced side when he was ‘asleep’ in sheol and the grave. The faith in which he was willing to die for us, who were the unseen, yet to be born out of our own sin and death through our faith in his redeeming death and resurrection.

Faith is also more than the vision of God with the spiritual eyes or mind, it is faith that registers in very depths of our being, in the very soul of our being. The sort of faith that we have in Jesus Christ is the sort of faith which he demonstrated while he was in the garden of Gethsemane.

“My soul is exceedinly sorrowful, even as unto death”. “If it is possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not my will, but thy will be done.”

His faith is the faith of which it is said, “though being God’s son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the author (leader) of salvation to all who believe in him.”

His faith is the faith of which it is said, “We have a high priest who is able to empathize with our infirmities, for he was tempted in every way as us, yet without sin.”

His faith is the faith of which he said, “Thou wilt not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow thy holy one to see corruption.”

The peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

 

[Bookcat]

The ‘unseen’ would be the church that would be born out his pierced side when he was ‘asleep’ in sheol and the grave. The faith in which he was willing to die for us, who were the unseen, yet to be born out of our own sin and death through our faith in his redeeming death and resurrection.

Faith is also more than the vision of God with the spiritual eyes or mind, it is faith that registers in very depths of our being, in the very soul of our being. The sort of faith that we have in Jesus Christ is the sort of faith which he demonstrated while he was in the garden of Gethsemane.

“My soul is exceedinly sorrowful, even as unto death”. “If it is possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not my will, but thy will be done.”

His faith is the faith of which it is said, “though being God’s son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered, and being made perfect, he became the author (leader) of salvation to all who believe in him.”

His faith is the faith of which it is said, “We have a high priest who is able to empathize with our infirmities, for he was tempted in every way as us, yet without sin.”

His faith is the faith of which he said, “Thou wilt not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will you allow thy holy one to see corruption.”

The peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Trust yes…but infused Theological faith no…

rather he had the beatific vision.

 

[PJM]

=rcjones;7185136]How do you change water into wine? You remove the axe from the stream.

Without using divinity, Jesus saw a living shadow of his ministry before him.

The rulers of Israel were preparing for the wedding of the lamb, just as the ruler of the wedding had prepared for the wedding.

Water, the word of God, is made up of wine (grace) and string drink (law). The ruler of the wedding and of Israel lacked wine (grace).

Jesus was the righteous judge, and he could have judged Israel and condemned them. But in his own heart, he had to choose not to judge, but to provide what they lacked because of sin. This was an important step in beginning his ministry.

To show that he understood his role, he commanded that the water be brought in six containers. These represent the Word of God (water) contained in six vessels or testimonies (as 1John says, three in heaven and three on earth). As he actively participates in the dinner theater, the Father rewards him by changing the water into wine, showing that he knew his Son’s heart was right for the ministry.

This further increased Jesus’s faith in what he had learned from his parents and the scriptures.

Each miracle is a response from the Father, to Jesus’s stepping into a little prophetic ‘dinner theater’ of the cross. It is a dialog between them. Jesus could say that he only did what he saw the Father doing. This is how he saw it.

Zacchaeus in the tree was a picture of the cross. His name means pure, but he was chief tax collector and servant of mammon. A picture of Jesus bearing our sin on the cross. He commanded him to come down because he knew he would come off the cross. Then he invited himself to dinner, since after the cross he would go to the banquet.

He intentionally finished the picture that the Father had begun by having Zacchaeus climb the tree.

When the Centurian asked for a servant to be healed, Jesus could in faith proclaim that the servant was healed because he saw the picture of himself in it. He would be separated by the Father at the cross, yet resurrected from that great distance. The Father began the picture with the illness of the servant and the meekness of the Centurian, and Jesus intentionally finished it by proclaiming him healed, and the Father rewarded his faith with the healing to finish the picture. It was a conversation between Father and Son.

Jesus is the bread, and we will be made like him… so taking the first steps to multiply the bread was like the Israelites stepping into the water before it parted. The Father rewarded his faith by multiplying the bread and finishing the picture. The scene was set in motion by the Father having the people follow him and being ill prepared to care for themselves. Jesus just did what he saw the Father doing.

Prophesying the destruction of the temple was nothing. The temple is a shadow of Christ. It had to be destroyed just as Christ had to face the cross. It would not have been a good shadow of Christ had it not been destroyed. It was prophesied throughout the OT.

Interestering but VERY personal understanding of these verses.

May God continue to bless you!

 

[zarthan]

Trust yes…but infused Theological faith no…

rather he had the beatific vision.

The Son of God had beatific vision of his heavenly Father as the Son of God, and trust (or faith) in his heavenly Father in the midst of his suffering and his death for our sins and in hope of his resurrection for our justification.

Infused theological faith is a theological term that frankly, if it exists, it exists through the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the leader and perfecter of faith.

We have our differences in the delineation of the definition of faith with regard to Jesus Christ, so let us just leave it that. In the faith and unity of our Lord Jesus Christ, may it so be.

 

[Bookcat]

The Son of God had beatific vision of his heavenly Father as the Son of God, and trust (or faith) in his heavenly Father in the midst of his suffering and his death for our sins and in hope of his resurrection for our justification.

Infused theological faith is a theological term that frankly, if it exists, it exists through the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the leader and perfecter of faith.

We have our differences in the delineation of the definition of faith with regard to Jesus Christ, so let us just leave it that. In the faith and unity of our Lord Jesus Christ, may it so be.

Yes our faith exists through Jesus Christ (but the common opinion of theologians over time is that it is not through his faith…no where will you find in Sacred Scripture where it actually says Jesus had Faith…)

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

II. THE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES

1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature:76 for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.

1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

Faith

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith "work through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks."82 Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."83

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

[zarthan]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

II. THE THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES

1812 The human virtues are rooted in the theological virtues, which adapt man’s faculties for participation in the divine nature:76 for the theological virtues relate directly to God. They dispose Christians to live in a relationship with the Holy Trinity. They have the One and Triune God for their origin, motive, and object.

1813 The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

Faith

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith "work through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But “faith apart from works is dead”:81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks."82 Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."83

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Thank you for posting the definition of infused virtues as defined by the Roman Catholic catechism. It clarifies your position to me. I would not disagree with this definition as it applies to the church, the body of Christ. So, it is true that our Lord Jesus Christ was not infused with theological faith. I do think his trust in our heavenly Father for the redemption of his body and soul, and for the church is still by definition faith, but not infused faith.

“What we had here, was a failure to communicate”

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for posting the definition of infused virtues as defined by the Roman Catholic catechism. It clarifies your position to me. I would not disagree with this definition as it applies to the church, the body of Christ. So, it is true that our Lord Jesus Christ was not infused with theological faith. I do think his trust in our heavenly Father for the redemption of his body and soul, and for the church is still by definition faith, but not infused faith.

“What we had here, was a failure to communicate”

In a sense…one could perhaps apply a broad understanding of faith as “trust” …

I would add too that He KNEW he would Rise…(and to get into terms again…it was not his redemption …but ours…oh an it is not the Roman Catholic Catechism…but the Catechism of the Catholic Church…not just the Roman Church…but the whole Catholic Church…there are some 22 Easter Catholic Churches…all forming the Catholic Church…)

Your posts say you are catholic…are you taking this in the way some Protestants use the term…in other words are you Protestant? If such is the case I can see more from where you are writing from.

 

[zarthan]

In a sense…one could perhaps apply a broad understanding of faith as “trust” …

I would add too that He KNEW he would Rise…(and to get into terms again…it was not his redemption …but ours…oh an it is not the Roman Catholic Catechism…but the Catechism of the Catholic Church…not just the Roman Church…but the whole Catholic Church…there are some 22 Easter Catholic Churches…all forming the Catholic Church…)

Your posts say you are catholic…are you taking this in the way some Protestants use the term…in other words are you Protestant? If such is the case I can see more from where you are writing from.

Yes, Jesus Christ knew he would rise from the dead. I was referring to the faith of Jesus Christ and his trust in His heavenly Father that his body and soul would not be left in the nether world, that allegorically, he was seeing by faith the redemption of his body, the Church, the new Eve. Furthermore, that Jesus Christ together with his perfected bride will bring about the restoration of fallen creation.

As far as the catechism is concerned, I was under the impression that the 22 Eastern churches are not bound to believe everything in the catechism. If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

No, baptized and confirmed, I left the Roman Catholic church at a young age and underwent a profound spiritual experience in my 20’s. I have been taught most of what I understand about the Christian faith by the Holy Spirit. I now attend a Roman Catholic church without receiving the Eucharist, because of my inability to embrace several Marian dogmas. I was hoping maybe to join an Eastern church that is not so dogmatic on these teachings.

The peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

 

[sojo]

This is one of those questions I’ve pondered. Yes, dying of crucifixion would be unbelievable painful. But dying and knowing you are God and you will not really die but live forever… that is a grace that is not given to the rest of us. Did Jesus truly share in our human condition of dying and fearing it was truly and forever over – all the pain and no “ever after”? Could he REALLY know what that was about if he truly knew he was God and would rise again after 3 days?

Or did Jesus suspend his belief in his divinity in order to experience a totally human, frightening death? Why would He go through all the bother of trying to live in our shoes if He didn’t take this extra step? And perhaps that is why he chose the psalm to recite at the end about the Father forsaking Him?

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, Jesus Christ knew he would rise from the dead. I was referring to the faith of Jesus Christ and his trust in His heavenly Father that his body and soul would not be left in the nether world, that allegorically, he was seeing by faith the redemption of his body, the Church, the new Eve. Furthermore, that Jesus Christ together with his perfected bride will bring about the restoration of fallen creation.

As far as the catechism is concerned, I was under the impression that the 22 Eastern churches are not bound to believe everything in the catechism. If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

No, baptized and confirmed, I left the Roman Catholic church at a young age and underwent a profound spiritual experience in my 20’s. I have been taught most of what I understand about the Christian faith by the Holy Spirit. I now attend a Roman Catholic church without receiving the Eucharist, because of my inability to embrace several Marian dogmas. I was hoping maybe to join an Eastern church that is not so dogmatic on these teachings.

The peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

As for “Faith” being had by Jesus…I will save you my restating the various things I have already written on Faith…etc…

As to the Catechism…

Yes…the Catechism is for the entire Catholic Church…East and West. Of course somethings may be expressed differently in the differing Churches.

May I propose that you seek further into those things that still are not fully accepted…for example Jimmy Akin is a good source…and The Coming Home Network…Steve Ray Catholic Answers books etc…I really hope you can overcome your hesitation and be able to return…

I know …from your thinking seriously here…that you must have looked into them…but I still propose your continued looking…some it has taken a good amount…and still more before things cleared up for them…

I myself was a Baptist…who became a Catholic in 1989…and yes I had to work abit to understand some of the Marian things…but it is Faith seeking understanding…

 

[NotWorthy]

This is one of those questions I’ve pondered. Yes, dying of crucifixion would be unbelievable painful. But dying and knowing you are God and you will not really die but live forever… that is a grace that is not given to the rest of us. Did Jesus truly share in our human condition of dying and fearing it was truly and forever over – all the pain and no “ever after”? Could he REALLY know what that was about if he truly knew he was God and would rise again after 3 days?

Or did Jesus suspend his belief in his divinity in order to experience a totally human, frightening death? Why would He go through all the bother of trying to live in our shoes if He didn’t take this extra step? And perhaps that is why he chose the psalm to recite at the end about the Father forsaking Him?

Jesus fully understood that He would die… and slow and painful death. He could experience fear, certainly, and I imagine that His fear was even worse than ours would have been if we were in the same situation, because He fully knew the suffering that He was about to endure.

But while His mortal body suffered and died, His divinity always remained… it was not abandoned.

Yes, its very hard to comprehend and I’d be lying if I admitted that I fully understand.

 

[zarthan]

As for “Faith” being had by Jesus…I will save you my restating the various things I have already written on Faith…etc…

As to the Catechism…

Yes…the Catechism is for the entire Catholic Church…East and West. Of course somethings may be expressed differently in the differing Churches.

May I propose that you seek further into those things that still are not fully accepted…for example Jimmy Akin is a good source…and The Coming Home Network…Steve Ray Catholic Answers books etc…I really hope you can overcome your hesitation and be able to return…

I know …from your thinking seriously here…that you must have looked into them…but I still propose your continued looking…some it has taken a good amount…and still more before things cleared up for them…

I myself was a Baptist…who became a Catholic in 1989…and yes I had to work abit to understand some of the Marian things…but it is Faith seeking understanding…

I’ll try, but there are certain things about Marian dogma that are neither scriptural, nor rooted in the Ante-Nicene writings.

 

[Bookcat]

I’ll try, but there are certain things about Marian dogma that are neither scriptural, nor rooted in the Ante-Nicene writings.

If little o’l me can be of help …you can always PM me…but certainly the other big hitters will be better likely than me…

oh as I mentioned Jimmy Akin…his new book on the Fathers may be of help (and you can call him etc) or the new series by CA on Our Lady

oh…and remember it is not just Scripture but Tradition…and just cause one does not find something (though it may be there…) in the ante-Nicene writings…does not mean that it was not held…such writings are just the ones who survived the fires and vacitudes of history…

it is not like the Church just woke up hundreds of years later and said…hum…lets figure out what we believe …lets see what do we find that at written… an go about now teaching it…

(such is certain witnesses in history to the reality to Tradition…not its exhaustive source…Tradition is more than that…)

Good readings for ya…read in order:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060315_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060322_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060426_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060503_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060510_en.html

you can buy the whole series here…ignatius.com/Products/JAEC-H/jesus-the-apostles-and-the-early-church.aspx

 

[zarthan]

If little o’l me can be of help …you can always PM me…but certainly the other big hitters will be better likely than me…

oh as I mentioned Jimmy Akin…his new book on the Fathers may be of help (and you can call him etc) or the new series by CA on Our Lady

oh…and remember it is not just Scripture but Tradition…and just cause one does not find something (though it may be there…) in the ante-Nicene writings…does not mean that it was not held…such writings are just the ones who survived the fires and vacitudes of history…

it is not like the Church just woke up hundreds of years later and said…hum…lets figure out what we believe …lets see what do we find that at written… an go about now teaching it…

(such is certain witnesses in history to the reality to Tradition…not its exhaustive source…Tradition is more than that…)

Good readings for ya…read in order:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060315_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060322_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060426_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060503_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20060510_en.html

you can buy the whole series here…ignatius.com/Products/JAEC-H/jesus-the-apostles-and-the-early-church.aspx

I was not able to find anything by Akins, or Coming Home, or Scott Hahn that directly answered a teaching that is in the Catholic Catechism, that is to say, that Mary remained a virgin while giving birth to Jesus Christ.

As far as tradition goes there are direct teachings of scripture and early church fathers which deny such a teaching. The dogmas surrounding Mary most likely were teachings that resulted in the formative stages of defining who the Son of God is in relationship to God the Father, which happened during the Nicene age of the church.

 

[Bookcat]

I was not able to find anything by Akins, or Coming Home, or Scott Hahn that directly answered a teaching that is in the Catholic Catechism, that is to say, that Mary remained a virgin while giving birth to Jesus Christ.

keep seeking …you can also call Jimmy…

As far as tradition goes there are direct teachings of scripture

Nope…not as understood correctly…

and early church fathers which deny such a teaching.

Some may have got something wrong…sure…that is not news…some early writers got things wrong about things you would never have trouble with…persons can make mistakes etc…

The dogmas surrounding Mary most likely were teachings that resulted in the formative stages of defining who the Son of God is in relationship to God the Father, which happened during the Nicene age of the church.

yes much of them were clearified or “developed” during such time…just like the understandings of the Trinity…

 

[Bookcat]

But we had better not derail this thread…

 

[NotWorthy]

My thoughts on this subject is that when we die and go to heaven (God Willing!), then our Faith in Jesus Christ becomes knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I say this because I think it helps to illustrate that Jesus didn’t have “Faith”, but “Knowledge”. He is the source of our Faith, but that doesn’t mean he had to have Faith.