Did Jesus have siblings?

[FCEGM]

In attempting to isolate one definition or use of overshadowing, I think it would be more helpful to examine how it is used in the Bible itself:

episkiazō
In its five uses, does it ever denote sexual or marital relationships outside of the time this article is contending it does?
Quote:
Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid [them] on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

It is not a matter of isolating one meaning, but of understanding Luke’s usage in context. So, the mere fact that the word “episkiasa” is used in Acts 5:15 does not mean that the same expression is being used in the same way that we find in Luke 1:35. In Acts 15:5, a literal, physical image is being described - the idea of Peter’s physical shadow passing over the sick. But, in Luke 1:35, a symbolic metaphor is being used, and this symbolic metaphor clearly does not appear in Acts 5, nor is it used anywhere else in the New Testament aside from Luke’s treatment of Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. Acts 5 is not describing the Holy Spirit “coming upon” anyone (per “Pneuma Agion epeleusetai epi se” in Luke 1:35) nor does it describe “the power of the Most High” overshadowing anyone (per “…kai synamis Huxistou episkiasi so” in Luke 1:38).

The meaning of words resides in their intended context.If you want to discern the truth, you have to determine what it means to be “overshadowed by the most high,” which is clearly not what is being described in Acts 5. To what is Luke 1:35 really referring?

Anyone familiar with 1 & 2 Samuel and 1 & 2 Kings, Luke’s language should be very familiar. When Gabriel speaks of Mary being “overshadowed” by the Most High, that is a clear reference to the Old Testament Ark of the Covenant, which was also “overshadowed” by the Spirit of God. So, what is he saying?He is saying that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant - a sacred vessel to contain the Incarnate Word of God, just as the Ark contained the 10 Commandments.

 

[Peter_J]

In particular, the idea that Mary is the “spouse of the Holy Spirit” is a fairly well-established belief, but not a dogma.

BTW, that idea is not as strange as it might sound. Keep in mind that the Church is the Bride of Christ.

 

[Peter_J]

Elvis I would challenge you to show me any documents from the early church fathers that came immediately after the Apostles demonstrating their understanding that Mary was a perpetual virgin and had no children. The gentlemen I speak of specifically are Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius. The reason I specify these are they supposedly studied under the Apostle John who definitely would have known Mary.

Saying that folks who came a few hundred years later held to this belief is no more valid than someone from the 20th century. A few hundred years is plenty of time for new beliefs to begin that have no roots in the strict early church. The fact is we don’t see any devotion to Mary until around the 4th or 5th centuries. Mary was always highly thought of but never received the devotion and beliefs that the Catholic church currently has.

PEACE

This post is a good illustration of the difference between Catholic-Orthodox dialogue and Catholic-Protestant dialogue.

Catholics and Orthodox both believe in the “undivided Church of the first millennium” (even though we each claim to be exclusively the legitimate successor of that Church). For Catholics and Orthodox, if you can show that something was a believe or practice of the undivided Church, then well that’s really saying something.

 

[Jean_1958]

Jesus spoke Aramaic, a sister language to Hebrew. In Semetic languages, there is no word for cousin. Most modern languages have a word for cousin. Semetic languages use the word brother when referring to cousin. This is true of modern Arabic which is also a Semetic language. No word for cousin so the word for brother is used.

In the scripture passages where it talks about Jesus’ brothers, it is most likely referring to cousins and not actually brothers.

Hope this helps.

Jean

 

[BrianH]

Jesus spoke Aramaic, a sister language to Hebrew. In Semetic languages, there is no word for cousin. Most modern languages have a word for cousin. Semetic languages use the word brother when referring to cousin. This is true of modern Arabic which is also a Semetic language. No word for cousin so the word for brother is used.

In the scripture passages where it talks about Jesus’ brothers, it is most likely referring to cousins and not actually brothers.

Hope this helps.

Jean

The NT is written in Greek. What anyone said in Aramaic EXCEPT for those parts written in Aramaic is largely conjecture. There is a Greek word for cousin.
Have you ever noticed what was possibly said in Aramaic never comes up when the Angel is addressing Mary:shrug:

 

[cfrancis]

The NT is written in Greek. What anyone said in Aramaic EXCEPT for those parts written in Aramaic is largely conjecture. There is a Greek word for cousin.
Have you ever noticed what was possibly said in Aramaic never comes up when the Angel is addressing Mary:shrug:

I suppose your retort is akin to “Have you ever noticed that what is actually said in the Greek is not addressed when discussing John 6 ”

Are there any historical documents out there (Josephus, for example) that discuss the lingua franca of this area at this time?

 

[BrianH]

I suppose your retort is akin to “Have you ever noticed that what is actually said in the Greek is not addressed when discussing John 6 ”

Are there any historical documents out there (Josephus, for example) that discuss the lingua franca of this area at this time?

I have not discussed John 6 in quite sometime, not sure where you are going on this…
But I have not read Josephus enough, I assume when he speaks of James the Lords brother, not the interpolated part in a different section, he used what word…

 

[cfrancis]

I have not discussed John 6 in quite sometime, not sure where you are going on this…
But I have not read Josephus enough, I assume when he speaks of James the Lords brother, not the interpolated part in a different section, he used what word…

Re Jn 6: I was not referring to anyone in particular, but Protestants in general.

As for the lingua franca issue, I wonder if there is a historical source that tells us what language was dominant in that area during that time.
If such evidenced surfaced showing Aramaic being dominant, certain conclusions could be drawn (the same would go for Greek).
In the ECF, there is mention of an Aramaic (or was it Hebrew) Gospel of Matthew.

 

[prodromos]

Marchoi if you study the Greek you will see that the tense of the sentence impacts what is being said here. The Angel is telling Mary that she will conceive in the present tense. That it’s going to happen like right now. Mary being betrothed and not finalizing the marriage for possibly several months doesn’t understand how this could happen immediately as the Angel is saying.

The Archangel Gabriel said that she would conceive, which is future tense, not that she is conceiving, which would be the present tense. There is nothing in the Greek which suggests any kind of time frame, only that it would happen in the future, presumably when Mary gave her consent.

John

 

[SIA]

I was speaking of oral tradition in general, not specifically. Also, written tradition - and it IS there!

Okay Missouri guy, show me!

 

[elvisman]

Okay Missouri guy, show me!

Okay, SIA - you asked for it:

Didymus the Blind
It helps us to understand the terms “firstborn” and “only begotten” when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin “until she brought forth her firstborn son” [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 A.D. 386]).

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Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 A.D. 360]).

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Epiphanius
**We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 A.D. 374]).

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Jerome
But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 A.D. 383]).

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Augustine
In being born of a virgin who chose to remain a virgin even before she knew who was to be born other, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 A.D. 401]).

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Leporius
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary (Document of Amendment 3 A.D. 426]).

Now - in all fairness show ME the biblical refutation as claimed by you.

 

[Peter_J]

The Archangel Gabriel said that she would conceive, which is future tense, not that she is conceiving, which would be the present tense. There is nothing in the Greek which suggests any kind of time frame, only that it would happen in the future, presumably when Mary gave her consent.

John

Thank you, prodromos.

(And btw, long time no see.)