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PRmerger
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[SIGN]Catholic Church: at the forefront of the Civil Rights Movement. [/SIGN]
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PRmerger
Guest
ROY:
My question to you is: why are White Supremacists not allowed to preach at your church?
Clearly, you are intolerant of the Klan (as you should be), and, I might add, to close-minded Catholics.
Doesn’t that seem contradictory to your “big tent” paradigm?
Why do you get to be close-minded (to your own list of self-prescribed heresies) but clearly have such disdain for “close-minded” Catholics?
It seems that your “big tent” excludes some folks, huh? We’re welcome, as long as we believe what you believe.
Hmmm…isn’t that the very thing you criticize the CC for?
My question to you is: why are White Supremacists not allowed to preach at your church?
Clearly, you are intolerant of the Klan (as you should be), and, I might add, to close-minded Catholics.
Doesn’t that seem contradictory to your “big tent” paradigm?
Why do you get to be close-minded (to your own list of self-prescribed heresies) but clearly have such disdain for “close-minded” Catholics?
It seems that your “big tent” excludes some folks, huh? We’re welcome, as long as we believe what you believe.
Hmmm…isn’t that the very thing you criticize the CC for?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Thank you for clarifying that
I’ll still take the INFALLIBLE ruling of MULTIPLE Popes on this matter …Sir Knight, I pray you are having a blessed day. You wrote, “Even if it did, I’d rather stick with official church teaching as found in the CCC rather than something on youtube.” Well my friend THE LINK WORKS; youtube.com/watch?v=5cTr8OoGMA0. Please copy and paste the link.
This is a message from Rev. Msgr. Eric R. Barr, Episcopal Vicar for Clergy and Religious for the Diocese of Rockford, IL. Bishop Thomas G. Doran is the bishop of this diocese. The Rockford Diocese covers 11 counties in Northern Illinois. Msgr. Barr’s e-mail is : vicarforclergy@rockforddiocese.org and his telephone numbers are: (815) 399-4300 and Fax (815) 399-5266.
I believe one of the main roles of this forum is to share and educate each other according with official teachings of the church, not to propagate our own interpretations or agenda. The message from Rev. Msgr. Eric Barr, who is an church official representing Bishop Thomas G. Doran, should be considered of great importance. If you have any concerns about the validity of the message of Msgr. Barr you are welcome to contact the Diocese of Rockford, IL @ www.rockforddiocese,org. I encourage all my friends to listen to his message using that link.
- Going back in time as early as the days of the Athanasian Creed, it was taught then that “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39)
- About 585 A.D., Pope Pelagius II infallibly stated, “If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to this faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized (means excommunicated) according to the opinion of the same Fathers… Consider (therefore) the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church, cannot have the Lord. [Gal. 3:7]” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 246)
- In 1208 A.D., Pope Innocent III infallibly stated, “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 423)
- In 1215 A.D., Pope Innocent III infallibly stated, “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved…” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 430)
- In 1302 A.D., Pope Boniface VIII infallibly stated, “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sins…” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 468)
- In 1302 A.D., by the power invested in him, Pope Boniface VIII infallibly stated, “…we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 469)
- In 1442 A.D, Pope Eugenius IV, 1442, at the Council of Florence, reaffirmed this truth. "It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 714)
- The same truth regarding the necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation was reaffirmed by Pope Gregory XVI in 1832 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1854 A.D.; Pope Pius IX in 1863 A.D.; Pope John XXIII on June 29, 1961 A.D.; Pope John Paul I, on August 27, 1978; Pope John Paul II on October 21, 1981, etc.
The above is INFALLIBLE teaching of Pope Pelagius II. Not something to be taken lightly.**
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JPCalifornia
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I have a big family… we don’t see eye to eye in every isue but we are a family. Protestants and Catholics are one big family in Jesus Christ. The enemy is Satan not our family members
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JPCalifornia
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Luk 1:36 And 2532, behold 2400 , thy 4675 cousin 4773 Elisabeth 1665, she 846 hath 4815 0 also 2532 conceived 4815 a son 5207 in 1722 her 846 old age 1094: and 2532 this 3778 is 2076 the sixth 1623 month 3376 with her 846, who 3588 was called 2564 barren 4723.
Luk 1:58 And 2532 her neighbours 4040 and 2532 her 846 cousins 4773 heard 191 how 3754 the Lord 2962 had shewed great 3170 mercy 1656 846 upon 3326 her 846; and 2532 they rejoiced 4796 with her 846.
The word used for cousin is syggenēs. Is it safe to say that Elisabeth was Mary’s cousin or could she had been Mary’s sister?
Luk 1:58 And 2532 her neighbours 4040 and 2532 her 846 cousins 4773 heard 191 how 3754 the Lord 2962 had shewed great 3170 mercy 1656 846 upon 3326 her 846; and 2532 they rejoiced 4796 with her 846.
The word used for cousin is syggenēs. Is it safe to say that Elisabeth was Mary’s cousin or could she had been Mary’s sister?
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Sir_Knight
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That is an opinion which contradicts the infallible teachings of multiple Popes through the centuries as I referenced above.
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kelvinf
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Sir Knight, I am curious. Who are you to interpret the teachings of the Catholic Church more than the clergymen? The bible says something like only specific people can interpret the scriptures correctly and in the Catholic Church, they are clergymen. So I am just curious if you are one of them otherwise why do you seem to be at odds with what the clergymen are saying? What makes you think that your interpretation and not theirs is the correct one?
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Sir_Knight
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It isn’t MY “interpretation” of scripture but what past multiple Popes have formally declared and they are certainly among those that can correctly interpret scripture, wouldn’t you agree?
I’m providing the exact quote and supporting references for those quotes (see above). It doesn’t take much “interpretation” to understand what they said. For instance, how would you interpret …“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39)
… or …“If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to this faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized (means excommunicated) according to the opinion of the same Fathers… Consider (therefore) the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church, cannot have the Lord. [Gal. 3:7]” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 246)
… and …“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 423)
… and …"…we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff." (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 469)
… I await to hear your “interpretation” is of those Papal declarations.
Oh, and I listened to the link that Deacon JAR provided and the good Monsignor says NOTHING to contradict what I have been saying. He talks about those, who through no fault of their own, do not come to the faith. I have repeatedly said that I was not making reference to them but to those that have REJECTED the faith and the Monsignor says nothing about them.
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inkaneer
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No. There are a lot of people in the world and a lot of them are Catholic. Not every Catholic is in lock step with Church teaching. What you want to do is to depersonalize sin so that the sin of an individual is somehow transferred to a higher level. With anyone Catholic that higher level is the church. Oddly enough the fact that while protestants are willing to do this to Catholics they take a different track when it comes to protestants. There they distance themselves. But there is something else here. It appears that protestants have placed the Catholic Church on some sort of pedestal by having a different and much higher, not to mention humanly impossible to attain standard, for judging the Church than their own denomination. It’s an attempt to lower the church to their own level so they can claim their denomination is just as good as the Catholic Church. Amazing what level these so called christians will sink to in order to justify their belief system.
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inkaneer
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As for Paul we have scripture to prove he was an Apostle even if that scripture was written by Paul himself he was still inspired by the Holy Spirit was he not? In addition we have scripture quoting the Lord Himself that Paul was an Apostle. In Acts 9:15 we read:
"15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;” [Acts 9:15]
The Lord was sending Paul to the Gentiles as his messenger. Paul is sent by God therefore when Paul says he is an Apostle he is correct.
As for Luther and Augustine, if Luther followed Augustine 100% I would have no problem with Luther. But Luther doesn’t and so I do have problems with Luther.
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inkaneer
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You have just pointed out one of the errors of the KJV. The Greek word Syggenes means kinswoman not cousin. Look in your KJV lexicon. In addition, it would be impossibe for Elizabeth and Mary to be cousins for to be so means they were the children of siblings. So Elizabeth’s mother or father and Mary’s mother or father had to be sisters or brothers or a combination there of. But scripture tells us that Elizabeth was very old [Luke 1:18 and 1:36] and Mary was very young [Luke 1:27]. They were in reality a generation apart. So how could they be children of siblings which they would have to be in order to be cousins? They can’t be. Mary and Elizabeth are related but not as cousins
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Sir_Knight
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Not to contradict what you are saying because I am in agreement with you but to address your comment …
My father is a decade younger than his sister. Additionally, she got married when she was in her early twenties and had children. My father got married later in life (due to the war) and I didn’t come along until he was in his late thirties. As a result, I am the same age as my father’s sister’s GRANDchildren.
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inkaneer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
You have just pointed out one of the errors of the KJV. The Greek word Syggenes means kinswoman not cousin. Look in your KJV lexicon. In addition, it would be impossibe for Elizabeth and Mary to be cousins for to be so means they were the children of siblings. So Elizabeth’s mother or father and Mary’s mother or father had to be sisters or brothers or a combination there of. But scripture tells us that Elizabeth was very old [Luke 1:18 and 1:36] and Mary was very young [Luke 1:27]. They were in reality a generation apart. So how could they be children of siblings which they would have to be in order to be cousins? They can’t be. Mary and Elizabeth are related but not as cousins
Originally Posted by inkaneer
You have just pointed out one of the errors of the KJV. The Greek word Syggenes means kinswoman not cousin. Look in your KJV lexicon. In addition, it would be impossibe for Elizabeth and Mary to be cousins for to be so means they were the children of siblings. So Elizabeth’s mother or father and Mary’s mother or father had to be sisters or brothers or a combination there of. But scripture tells us that Elizabeth was very old [Luke 1:18 and 1:36] and Mary was very young [Luke 1:27]. They were in reality a generation apart. So how could they be children of siblings which they would have to be in order to be cousins? They can’t be. Mary and Elizabeth are related but not as cousins
What’s your point? At the time of the Annunciation Mary was about 14-17 years old. Elizabeth, according to tradition was about 80-90. There is a big difference between 63-73 year difference in Mary and Elizabeth and the approximate 24 years betweeen you and your cousins [your father’s sister’s children]. But I did make an error that I see now. In my prior post I said it was a difference of a generation in age. Actually it is a difference of about two generations.
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Sir_Knight
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Yeah, TWO generations would be hard to explain.
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PRmerger
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This quote is actually from the Athanasian Creed in the 6th century.
It applied to ALL Christian believers–that is, all Catholics–as this was prior to the reformation. [SIGN1]There were no other Christians around except Catholics in the 6th century. [/SIGN1]
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Sir_Knight
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So those that broke from the Catholic faith can no longer be considered Catholic, can they? Especially in light of the other statements about being in union with the Pope.This quote is actually from the Athanasian Creed in the 6th century.
It applied to ALL Christian believers–that is, all Catholics–as this was prior to the reformation. [sign1]There were no other Christians around except Catholics in the 6th century. [/sign1]
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PRmerger
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What the CC teaches is this:
—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, **and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church **(CCC 847). Source: here.
So what of those that broke from the Catholic faith? We are not to judge whether they will go to heaven or hell. We simply have no idea.
Even St. Paul did not claim that he himself knew that he would be in heaven. Why should we assume that we can know if a Baptist will be there or not?
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PRmerger
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Anyone who is baptized is our brother/sister in Christ, joined to the body of Christ.
*Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” *CCC 1271
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an_orthodox
Guest
Orthodox and Catholics insist that Mary had no other children after Jesus was born. However, passages like Matthew 13:55 seem to point to the understanding that Mary and Joseph did have other children. Note that Joseph, the carpenter, and Mary are mentioned along with the “brothers” of Jesus. Though the Greek word for “brothers” can also mean “cousins,” it would seem to be strange for the people to mention Joseph and Mary and then be speaking about cousins. The same is true of other passages that mention Mary along with Jesus brothers (Mk 3:32; Acts 1:14).
First, the term o f adelfoi you must recognize the generality of the term. Compare please with the Book of Tobit, when just before their wedding he addresses his wife, Suzannah, with this very same term, adelfi mou, and it is absolutely clear from the whole story that they were only relatives and not at all of the first degree. Moreover, in the Songs of songs, the bridegroom addresses his bride with the appellative beautifully and it is from this context that much later Baudelaire, borrowed the same appellative, in one of the most beautiful love poem< Invitation au voyage> “Mon enfant, ma soeur, songe a la douceur d’aller vivre ensemble”… But back to the biblical context the universality of the term of adelfoi seems quite assumed, especially if we think that the bride addressed is the Queen of Saba, which was not even part of the family, being some kind of aethiopian (?) princess. Moreover, we deal here in the specified context, that is Matt. 13:55, we found ourselves in Nazareth, and probably Mary and Joseph had little relatives there, and they were quoted clearly with the intention to show the humble origin of the Lord.(according to the jewsh expectations Messiah should have come from a royal household in glory and power, this is the purpose of the mentioning of Mary and Joseph closest relatives). And lately st. Paul himself clarifies this very same thing when speaking about jackob always adding, the relative of the Lord, not his brother. I don’t have the exact quotation, but st. Paul was a Jewish so he cold exactly appreciate the property of the term.
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Sir_Knight
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What the CC teaches is this:
—that is, while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, **and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church **(CCC 847). Source: here.
So what of those that broke from the Catholic faith? We are not to judge whether they will go to heaven or hell. We simply have no idea.
Even St. Paul did not claim that he himself knew that he would be in heaven. Why should we assume that we can know if a Baptist will be there or not?
We’ve been through all of this already. I refer you to paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where we read, “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.’” (C.C.C. # 816)
As stated, not only is salvation found in the Catholic Church, but also the “fullness of the means” of salvation.
So, exactly what does this mean? Well, to receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”
In the case of non-Catholic Christians, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess NO means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)
What are these mortal sins that can impede one’s entry into the Kingdom of God? In the Letter to the Galatians, we read, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:19-10; C.C.C. # 1852)In the First Letter to the Corinthians, we read, “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers - none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.” [1 Cor. 6:9-10]
Two Chapters later, we read, “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves. For this reason many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.” [1 Cor. 11:27-30]
In the Revelation to John, we read, “Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” [Rev. 21:7-8]
“Outside (of the Kingdom of God) are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.” [Rev. 22:15]These Biblical passages declare that, Catholic or not, those who chose through their free will to turn away from the holy ways, the righteousness of God, because of their mortal sins, they eternally condemn themselves.
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