Did Jesus have siblings?

[PRmerger]

When we speak of a ‘big tent’ you must be aware that there are limits.

YESS!!! :extrahappy::extrahappy:

That’s exactly what I was trying to get you to see! :extrahappy:

Your objection to religion in general, and Catholicism specifically, is that, through its doctrines, it sets limits. It becomes “intolerant” when it says, for example “Marriage is between a man and a woman.”

Now, do you see the hypocrisy in your paradigm?

You and your church are allowed to draw a line in which “intolerance” (not allowing White Supremacists to preach their hatred) actually becomes “standing up for Truth”. Yet you deny Catholicism this very same right.

 

[PRmerger]

At the same time, I might be willing and even eager to talk with them as well, but only in a situation where I **may be able to influence them away from their warped views. **I would regard that as rather urgent ‘mission work’, more important than conversations with fellow Christians with whom I disagree.

Then, Roy, we are agreed. That’s exactly what we Catholics are doing here on the CAFs. We just draw the line differently–we hope that we “may be able to influence [you] away from…[warped] views. I would regard that as rather urgent ‘mission work’…” (in borrowing your quote I would amend the word “warped” to “distorted” or “wrong” or “misguided” to attach to your beliefs.)

There is no hypocrisy in any of this and for you to keep pressing that point is either for you to misunderstand or to try hard for a quite irresponsible ‘gotcha’. I hope it’s the former.

 But God bless you and everyone else.

I am quite satisfied that my point has been made, and understood by you. I would hope that, in your future posts, you will think twice about this particular objection to Catholicism. To do otherwise would be quite disingenuous.

Your Big Tent paradigm draws the line at what it perceives as truth, just like the Catholic Church does.

 

[Roy5]

It’s difficult to dialogue when one side makes continuous false accusations of hypocrisy. There is nothing hypocritical in wanting an atmosphere among Christians that is less dogmatic, less bitter, less judgmental and more open to amicable dialogue.

One other thing. You seem to think that I am some sort of non-religious radical. Nothing could be further from the truth and you should be careful not to jump to such a conclusion. I attend Mass frequently and worship somewhere nearly every Sunday, sometimes twice or more on a weekend. I enjoy attending a variety of churches, synagogues, temples, etc.- going along with my 'big tent' philosophy. Tomorrow, for example, I will be attending a Catholic church in the morning and a play at a local UCC Church in the afternoon. I am a widower and my special friend, a Catholic widow, is at Mass every weekend. Fortunately, she is quite open to calm conversations on religion and, like millions of Catholics, doesn't accept all the doctrines and practices of the RCC. As I have said repeatedly I come from a mixed religious background which contributes to my strong ecumenical bent.

As for positions on issues, I am glad to see greater toleration of gays and lesbians, who once were arrested and locked up. However, I do not believe in same-sex marriage, though I have come to accept civil unions. Like many others, I worry about the decaying family structure in the USA and grieve the number of abortions except in limited cases - when it becomes a great sadness more than a great sin. I was raised never to consume alcohol or smoke cigarettes (and don’t), never gamble at a casino (and don’t), and I probably observe the Sabbath with more dilgence than 95% of the American people. I recall how my Protestant kinfolk were suspicious of Catholicism because it didn’t seem to object to such practices (and our Catholic neighbors seem to disregard the Sabbath after returning home from Mass), while my Catholic kinfolk thought Protestantism was ‘loose’ because Protestants ate meat on Friday (yes, even during Lent), didn’t confess their sins to a priest, didn’t recite the Rosary, and especially because most Protestants do not view artificial birth control as sinful if used by married couples who believed in family planning.

I am more interested in Christians living in harmony than agreeing in doctrine etc. I leave it up to God to judge us when that time comes and even expect to meet you in heaven, if that’s the way things work there. Actually, I have no clear view of what heaven is like, probably some place we cannot envision properly with our finite minds. I don’t even know what’s going on the home across the street as I write this. How can I be expected to know what is going on in that eternal realm where our spirits/souls continue on?

And we could go on. God bless you regardless - and bless the whole world.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s difficult to dialogue when one side makes continuous false accusations of hypocrisy. There is nothing hypocritical in wanting an atmosphere among Christians that is less dogmatic, less bitter, less judgmental and more open to amicable dialogue.

Except when* you *want to be dogmatic?

I am sorry that you find this dialogue difficult, Roy.

You seem to think that I am some sort of non-religious radical.

Not at all. Not at all. I find nothing radical about your beliefs. They are quite jejune, in fact. Yet I am humbled by your love of reasoned discourse and find your posts polite and respectful. :tiphat:

 

[Sir_Knight]

All people are not part of the Catholic Church. But all people have a share in the deposit of faith that exists in it’s fullest in the Catholic. If some stone age tribesman in the mountain of Boeneo maintains that to kill another human being is morally wrong then he has a share in the deposit of faith. Now it may not be much of a share but then as the parable of the talents tells us God will judge everyone according to what was given them, And if you, as a Catholic,were given the full deposit of truth then you will be judged by the strictest standard while that stone age tribesman will only need to meet a lower standard. And please don’t ask me what those standards are because Jesus didn’t reveal them. But He did reveal the principle by which we will be judged. NOW, all of the above changes if a person does not have invinceable ignorance. If a person becomes convinced that the Catholic Church is the true church then he is compelled to join himself to it. Failure, for any reason, to not join it removes the possibility of salvation until such time as they decide to join.

Well, we are partially in agreement. I disagree with the ignorance part.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I think that’s where all of this confusion lies–not all agree that the statements/quotes you provided state that “one has to be Catholic in order to be saved.”

Unless I’m mistaken, I did not see one quote from the Magisterium that states that “one has to be Catholic in order to be saved.”

No? Okay, as I asked earlier, please explain what these official Church declarations mean:

1. *]“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39)
   
   *]“If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to this faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized (means excommunicated) according to the opinion of the same Fathers… Consider (therefore) the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church, cannot have the Lord. [Gal. 3:7]” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 246)
   
   *]“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 423)
   
   *]"…we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff." (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 469)

 

[PRmerger]

No? Okay, as I asked earlier, please explain what these official Church declarations mean:

1. *]“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39)

1. 
   Well, as I explained earlier, since this was from the Athanasian creed in the 6th century, there only were Catholics around. Catholics, or heretics. And pagans.
   
   It says nothing whatsoever about Protestants going to hell for not being Catholic, correct?

 

[PRmerger]

especially because most Protestants do not view artificial birth control as sinful if used by married couples who believed in family planning.

That is categorically untrue. Since the Lambeth conference in the 1930’s, which initially only sanctioned use of artificial birth control for married couples, contraceptive use in the US is nearly universal in women of reproductive age. Not just by married couples.

I am more interested in Christians living in harmony than agreeing in doctrine etc.

That’s like saying I am quite happy playing the piano with 7 keys. Why not take advantage of all 88 keys that have been provided to you? What beautiful music we could play!

I leave it up to God to judge us when that time comes and even expect to meet you in heaven, if that’s the way things work there.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that, Roy!

 

[PRmerger]

No? Okay, as I asked earlier, please explain what these official Church declarations mean:

1. *]“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 39)
   
   *]“If anyone, however, either suggests or believes or presumes to teach contrary to this faith, let him know that he is condemned and also anathematized (means excommunicated) according to the opinion of the same Fathers… Consider (therefore) the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church, cannot have the Lord. [Gal. 3:7]” (SOURCE: Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 246)
   
   *]“By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 423)
   
   *]"…we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff." (SOURCE: D.E.S.; The Sources of Catholic Dogma; 30th edition, # 469)

1. 
   It is curious indeed that your quotes come from this website, which also states this:
   
   *OUR SEPARATED BROTHERS AND SISTERS
   

   13. Speaking of the separation of our brothers and sisters, paragraph # 818 states, "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these community [that resulted from such separation' and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; **they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.*" (C.C.C. # 818) (bold mine)

   And also the website from which you cut and pasted states this:
   
   *Thirdly, through faith in Jesus and the proper administration of the Sacrament of Baptism, **our separated brothers and sisters are justified (reconciliated with God by the Blood of Christ), **their past sins having been erased forever. As such, although they are not members of the physical Catholic faith, they meet the conditions to be admitted into the spiritual Body of Christ.
   1. During the new birth that takes place through faith in Christ and the Sacrament of Baptism, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, are admitted into the spiritual Body of Christ, at that moment they receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit as their “first installment” [Eph. 1:13-4; 2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5] towards the inheritance of salvation in the Kingdom of God. The Sacrament of Baptism does not guarantee one’s salvation; it is the door into the spiritual Body of Christ that leads towards salvation.
   • (bold again mine)

 

[Sir_Knight]

It is curious indeed that your quotes come from this website, which also states this:

*OUR SEPARATED BROTHERS AND SISTERS

13. Speaking of the separation of our brothers and sisters, paragraph # 818 states, "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these community [that resulted from such separation' and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; **they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.*" (C.C.C. # 818)

(bold mine)

And also the website from which you cut and pasted states this:

*Thirdly, through faith in Jesus and the proper administration of the Sacrament of Baptism, **our separated brothers and sisters are justified (reconciliated with God by the Blood of Christ), **their past sins having been erased forever. As such, although they are not members of the physical Catholic faith, they meet the conditions to be admitted into the spiritual Body of Christ.

1. During the new birth that takes place through faith in Christ and the Sacrament of Baptism, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, are admitted into the spiritual Body of Christ, at that moment they receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit as their “first installment” [Eph. 1:13-4; 2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5] towards the inheritance of salvation in the Kingdom of God. The Sacrament of Baptism does not guarantee one’s salvation; it is the door into the spiritual Body of Christ that leads towards salvation.

• (bold again mine)You stopped reading a little too soon because it also says …

1. Therefore, while the spiritual Body of Christ may presently embrace our brothers and sisters in Christ who are members of hundreds of different Christian faiths, the present membership of the spiritual Body of Christ is not a true reflection of the eternal membership of the Body of Christ. On Judgment Day, many “Christians” shall be removed from the Body of Christ because they were unable to maintain the righteousness that they absolutely required in order to remain in the Body of Christ, the eternal Kingdom of God.
2. To receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”
3. In the case of non-Catholics, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess no means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)

 

[kelvinf]

You stopped reading a little too soon because it also says …

1. Therefore, while the spiritual Body of Christ may presently embrace our brothers and sisters in Christ who are members of hundreds of different Christian faiths, the present membership of the spiritual Body of Christ is not a true reflection of the eternal membership of the Body of Christ. On Judgment Day, many “Christians” shall be removed from the Body of Christ because they were unable to maintain the righteousness that they absolutely required in order to remain in the Body of Christ, the eternal Kingdom of God.
2. To receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”
3. In the case of non-Catholics, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess no means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)

Dear Sir Knight, you unfortunately keep quoting and asking others for their interpretations. Most of us understand that today, those Papal declarations must be interpreted.

In one of your posts, you attempted to discredit the bible passages that state that all who BELIEVE in Jesus of Nazareth will be saved.
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

Your justification is that the devil also BELIEVES… For me that’s like choosing only the part: “There is no God!” in Psalm 14 (You made reference to this Psalm before in light of taking things out of context).

You guys seem to be saying that the CCC contradicts itself (one person quotes one part of the CCC which indicates that salvation is for all, the other quotes another part of the CCC which seems to state otherwise.) Then the CCC seems to contradict itself and what is clearly and repeatedly stated in the bible, that **salvation is for all **

**Rom 10:9, 11-13: **

The scripture says, “Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.” This includes everyone, because there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles; God is the same Lord of all and richly blesses all who call to him. As the scripture says, “Everyone who calls out to the Lord for help will be saved.”

Today’s English Version

Seriously, do the teachings of the Catholic Church contradict what scripture clearly and repeatedly says???

 

[PRmerger]

You stopped reading a little too soon because it also says …

1. Therefore, while the spiritual Body of Christ may presently embrace our brothers and sisters in Christ who are members of hundreds of different Christian faiths, the present membership of the spiritual Body of Christ is not a true reflection of the eternal membership of the Body of Christ. On Judgment Day, many “Christians” shall be removed from the Body of Christ because they were unable to maintain the righteousness that they absolutely required in order to remain in the Body of Christ, the eternal Kingdom of God.
2. To receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”
3. In the case of non-Catholics, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess no means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
4. Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)

'zactly, SK! 'zactly!

The above quotes are saying the exact same thing that Deacon Jar and I have been saying: outside the Church there is no salvation; yet one need not be a professed Catholic to enter heaven.

You keep offering quotes which confirm what we’ve been telling you, but interpreting it as “one has to be Catholic to be saved.” Nuh-uh. No way. Not a single quote provided declares that. Rather, the quotes (and the website from which you cut/pasted) state the contrary.

Incidentally, again, those quotes (why did you eliminate the dates they were promulgated?) were all before the reformation. There were no Baptists, Adventists, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, etc…

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
All people are not part of the Catholic Church. But all people have a share in the deposit of faith that exists in it’s fullest in the Catholic. If some stone age tribesman in the mountain of Boeneo maintains that to kill another human being is morally wrong then he has a share in the deposit of faith. Now it may not be much of a share but then as the parable of the talents tells us God will judge everyone according to what was given them, And if you, as a Catholic,were given the full deposit of truth then you will be judged by the strictest standard while that stone age tribesman will only need to meet a lower standard. And please don’t ask me what those standards are because Jesus didn’t reveal them. But He did reveal the principle by which we will be judged. NOW, all of the above changes if a person does not have invinceable ignorance. If a person becomes convinced that the Catholic Church is the true church then he is compelled to join himself to it. Failure, for any reason, to not join it removes the possibility of salvation until such time as they decide to join.

Well, we are partially in agreement. I disagree with the ignorance part.

What exactly do you disagree with?

 

[inkaneer]

'zactly, SK! 'zactly!

The above quotes are saying the exact same thing that Deacon Jar and I have been saying: outside the Church there is no salvation; yet one need not be a professed Catholic to enter heaven.

You keep offering quotes which confirm what we’ve been telling you, but interpreting it as “one has to be Catholic to be saved.” Nuh-uh. No way. Not a single quote provided declares that. Rather, the quotes (and the website from which you cut/pasted) state the contrary.

Incidentally, again, those quotes (why did you eliminate the dates they were promulgated?) were all before the reformation. There were no Baptists, Adventists, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, etc…

The problem with protestants attaining heaven is that while their baptism [Trinitarian] is valid and they die with Christ they then have no way to deal with actual sin they commit during their lives. So while their baptism makes salvation possible it is the absence of any way to remit sin committed during their lives that makes salvation problematical. Jesus delegated the power to forgive sin as one of the powers of the church. But unlike Catholicism not one of the protestant denominations claims it has that power. This is borne out in the contrasting analogies of sin and grace between Catholics and protestants. To the protestants God’s grace covers sin so that God no longer sees sin but rather His grace. The sin remains but is covered. Man is still the unclean person he was before, he just has new clothes. Catholics on the other hand say God’s grace is much more potent than that. God’s grace doesn’t just cover sin. God’s grace transforms the man so that there is no sin only grace. Man does not only have new clothes on over an unclean body but is washed clean. Revelation 21:4 says of heaven that nothing unclean shall enter it. Sin is unclean. Both baptized Catholics and protestants who die with only venial sins [sin not unto death] will enter heaven but only after purgation. Those Catholics and protestants even though baptized but having mortal sin [sin unto death] will not enter heaven ever.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Dear Sir Knight, you unfortunately keep quoting and asking others for their interpretations. Most of us understand that today, those Papal declarations must be interpreted.

In one of your posts, you attempted to discredit the bible passages that state that all who BELIEVE in Jesus of Nazareth will be saved.
John 3:16 Your justification is that the devil also BELIEVES… For me that’s like choosing only the part: “There is no God!” in Psalm 14 (You made reference to this Psalm before in light of taking things out of context).

You guys seem to be saying that the CCC contradicts itself (one person quotes one part of the CCC which indicates that salvation is for all, the other quotes another part of the CCC which seems to state otherwise.) Then the CCC seems to contradict itself and what is clearly and repeatedly stated in the bible, that **salvation is for all **

**Rom 10:9, 11-13: **
Today’s English Version

Seriously, do the teachings of the Catholic Church contradict what scripture clearly and repeatedly says???

The teachings of Christ can not be taken verse by verse. James warns us against this (apparently believers back then were coming to the same false conclusion as now that one is saved by faith ALONE) and even points out that the devil believes in God but is NOT saved by his faith proving that faith alone will not save anyone … [bibledrb]James 2:15-24[/bibledrb] … Faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works. This is part of OFFICIAL Church teaching according to Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9 – Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification.

 

[Roy5]

About the debate among Catholics as to whom will get to heaven: I personally leave that up to God’s grace and don’t pretend to know or judge. “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me…” Words Catholics sings today, written by a Protestant minister who was a repentant slave trader! If God is love, as the Bible states, I rather think hell is sparsely populated. The older I become the more I admire how most people confront all sorts of trials and tribulations, yet are courageous and resilient under enormous pressure.

 Now PRmerger, what is 'categorically untrue' about my statement that Catholics were critical of those Protestants who believed that married couples could use artificial birth control in family planning? Those Protestant kinfolk, those who never drank, smoked, cursed, gambled or went to the movies on Sunday (and carefully selected movies at all other times) certainly weren't advocates of artificial birth control *before* marriage. In keeping with their moral code, they opposed pre-marital sexual relations altogether. They wondered how their Catholic neighbors who drank, smoked, cursed, gambled and went to Sunday movies could call themselves serious Christians. It always struck me how different the moral codes were in these arenas. Both groups viewed the other as less than practicing Christians. 

 Keep the faith - the broad, accepting, generous, forgiving, understanding faith bequeathed to us by Christ Jesus, much less a matter of doctrine than a matter of love. One nun told me once: "Vatican II changed the church from one focusing on rules to one focusing on love."

 

[Sir_Knight]

'zactly, SK! 'zactly!

The above quotes are saying the exact same thing that Deacon Jar and I have been saying: outside the Church there is no salvation; yet one need not be a professed Catholic to enter heaven.

You keep offering quotes which confirm what we’ve been telling you, but interpreting it as “one has to be Catholic to be saved.” Nuh-uh. No way. Not a single quote provided declares that. Rather, the quotes (and the website from which you cut/pasted) state the contrary.

Incidentally, again, those quotes (why did you eliminate the dates they were promulgated?) were all before the reformation. There were no Baptists, Adventists, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, etc…

As I said earlier here & here and as inkaneer just said now, to receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”

In the case of non-Catholic Christians, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess NO means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)

What are these mortal sins that can impede one’s entry into the Kingdom of God? In the Letter to the Galatians, we read, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:19-10; C.C.C. # 1852).

 

[Sir_Knight]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
All people are not part of the Catholic Church. But all people have a share in the deposit of faith that exists in it’s fullest in the Catholic. If some stone age tribesman in the mountain of Boeneo maintains that to kill another human being is morally wrong then he has a share in the deposit of faith. Now it may not be much of a share but then as the parable of the talents tells us God will judge everyone according to what was given them, And if you, as a Catholic,were given the full deposit of truth then you will be judged by the strictest standard while that stone age tribesman will only need to meet a lower standard. And please don’t ask me what those standards are because Jesus didn’t reveal them. But He did reveal the principle by which we will be judged. NOW, all of the above changes if a person does not have invinceable ignorance. If a person becomes convinced that the Catholic Church is the true church then he is compelled to join himself to it. Failure, for any reason, to not join it removes the possibility of salvation until such time as they decide to join.

What exactly do you disagree with?

I don’t have the CCC in front of me right now but there is a section which says that ignorance is not an excuse if a person does not take the time to learn about these things or something like that. Again, I forget the exact wording and I have to shower now and head off to work.

 

[Sir_Knight]

As I said earlier here & here and as inkaneer just said now, to receive the free gift of salvation, Catholics must until their last breath, maintain the righteousness that they received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Ongoing righteousness is maintained through the reception of the Sacraments of Confession and the Holy Eucharist. While belonging to the invisible Body of Christ, Catholics recognize that they absolutely need the Sacraments of the visible Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, as their assurance of righteousness and salvation. Hence, believers require the Catholic Church as the “fullness of the means of salvation.”

In the case of non-Catholic Christians, while through faith in Jesus and the Sacrament of Baptism, they are admitted into the invisible Body of Christ as their first instalment towards salvation, once they have committed mortal sins, they possess NO means of reinstating the righteousness that they had originally received during the Sacrament of Baptism. Such a status holds serious consequences, the unrighteous sinners being unable to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it states, “If (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back.” (C.C.C. # 1861)

What are these mortal sins that can impede one’s entry into the Kingdom of God? In the Letter to the Galatians, we read, “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Gal. 5:19-10; C.C.C. # 1852).

EDITED TO ADD …
You provided some interesting quotes from the CCC but seemed to overlook some other ones. Let’s go back to paragraph # 816 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church where we read, “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.’” (C.C.C. # 816)

As stated, not only is salvation found in the Catholic Church, but also the “fullness of the means” of salvation.

 

[PRmerger]

Now PRmerger, what is ‘categorically untrue’ about my statement that Catholics were critical of those Protestants who believed that married couples could use artificial birth control in family planning?

What was “categorically untrue” was your statement here:

Originally Posted by Roy5
especially because most Protestants do not view artificial birth control as sinful if used by married couples who believed in family planning.

What originally was sanctioned (at the Lambeth Conference) was use of artificial birth control for married couples falling under specific criteria. Now, “most Protestants do not view artificial birth control as sinful…at all.” One can be married, single, contemplating divorce, a teenager, HIV +…it-doesn’t matter. It is the natural consequence of society’s demand that everyone deserves to have sex without a baby ever showing up in the picture.