Did Jesus have siblings?

[Roy5]

Inkaneer. Not quite sure why I continue this dialogue? with Inkaneer.

A couple quick points and then I must go on to more pressing pursuits.

1. Frankly, I'm not asking for compromise by anyone. My idea, which I know is not yours, is that Christians can live together in a warm relationship without constantly sniping at one another. There are a few fanatics here and there. Chick for example, although I suspect that 98% of Protestants have never heard of him. I've never heard of the other person you mention - Lorraine somebody. The main Protestant denominations manage to get along rather well with their differences, as through the World and National Council of Churches (which also include many Orthodox bodies). Most local clergy associations have included Catholic priests as members since Vatican II. In many communities the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity is observed when Catholics and Protestants have union services. Are you in favor of that? That would have been considered a compromise before Vatican II. Before Vatican II, by the way, Protestants were not regarded by the Catholic Church as separated brothers. It was a big sin to even enter a Protestant church. One priest in town told parochial school pupils to cross the street rather than go directly by the door of a Protestant church on their walk home. Thank you, John XXIII, for your new attitude of reconciliation.

 2. Not all the early Church Fathers are revered by the Catholic Church. I believe even Origen and Tertullian were judged to be heretics for some reason. Sorry, I read them years ago and forgot the details. And there were differences of opinion among some who were declared heretics, of course, so now are counted out as Church Fathers. It's easier to get agreement if you declare heretical views that didn't match Church Council votes. As in the case of Arius, for example.

 3. Don't even suggest that heretics weren't executed. Whole groups were attacked and many killed, whether the Hussites, Albigensians, Waldensians, Huguenots and many others over the centuries. As I recall the Crusaders even slaughtered many Orthodox on their way to the Holy Land and when they slayed all the inhabitants of Jerusalem (in 1099?). Memory of dates is a bit shaky. St. Thomas Aquinas favored execution of heretics - by the state. The church should notify the state of their heresy.  

 Yes, Protestants killed Catholics as under Elizabeth I. Catholics killed Protestants as under Bloody Mary. Neither side can claim a good record in that regard. On my Protestant side (maternal), by the way, an ancestral grandfather fled Ghent, Belgium, to France, when the Grand Court (or whatever its name was) ordered him to appear for trial as a Huguenot. Instead, he fled by night with his family to France, until Huguenots were freely murdered there. So they then fled to England and his grandson etc were part of the Puritan migration to New England. My paternal side was French-Canadian Catholic with the first Archbishop of Quebec on my family tree. One reason why I'm interest in a spirit of Catholic-Protestant unity, but not union. Unlike you, apparently, I have no problem with Christians with different points of view on such matters as doctrine (e. g., transubstantiation) or practice (e. g., women clergy). Thank and let think. The main appeal of Protestantism to me is that the mainline denominations seem to tolerate various opinions without declaring those members persona non grata. The main appeal of Catholicism is some of the traditions that can become very dear to many.

Have to invest my time more wisely. God bless people of every faith. I'm sure Christ would want us to feel this way. He made a hero out of a Samaritan who was of a different religion (and guilty of intermarriage), a faith certainly viewed as heretical by the religious establishment in Jerusalem. Come to think of it, Jesus was crucified in part because he was judged to be a heretic himself. In any case, he was more far more interested in love than in doctrinal conformity. 

 I'm pleased to let God decide who gets to heaven and who doesn't. My expectation is that it will be full of Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, all sorts of Native Americans and other tribal people of Africa, Asia, America (N and S), etc., etc. Maybe hell - or purgatory - will house a high proportion of people who thought they were the only ones destined for heaven. But I shouldn't speculate. I hope you make it, Inkaneer, and I look forward to additional dialogue face to face. I don't believe you're as harsh in your judgments as you appear in what you write.

 PS As for slavery and your earlier comment. Neither Protestants or Catholics have anything to brag about. There were Protestant slavers, but by far the largest number of slaves went to Latin America and the West Indians - 85% or even more. The Spanish, Portuguese and French were the main slavers in those areas. Like in the famous Amistad case. One could raise all sorts of silly issues, like who burned down the Colored Orphan Asylum in New York City during the riots there during the Civil War? Mainly Irish Catholics. But I really shouldn't raise such 'gotcha' points as they are of such little importance today. Besides, II'm part Irish and my father-in-law came from County Donegal, Ireland - a staunch Catholic and devotee of the IRA! That might help you understand why I hope to see peace, harmony, reconciliation and understanding between Catholics and Protestants.

 

[inkaneer]

Inkaneer. Not quite sure why I continue this dialogue? with Inkaneer.

A couple quick points and then I must go on to more pressing pursuits.

1. Frankly, I'm not asking for compromise by anyone. My idea, which I know is not yours, is that Christians can live together in a warm relationship without constantly sniping at one another. There are a few fanatics here and there. Chick for example, although I suspect that 98% of Protestants have never heard of him. I've never heard of the other person you mention - Lorraine somebody. The main Protestant denominations manage to get along rather well with their differences, as through the World and National Council of Churches (which also include many Orthodox bodies). Most local clergy associations have included Catholic priests as members since Vatican II. In many communities the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity is observed when Catholics and Protestants have union services. Are you in favor of that? That would have been considered a compromise before Vatican II. Before Vatican II, by the way, Protestants were not regarded by the Catholic Church as separated brothers. It was a big sin to even enter a Protestant church. One priest in town told parochial school pupils to cross the street rather than go directly by the door of a Protestant church on their walk home. Thank you, John XXIII, for your new attitude of reconciliation."

That story of the Catholic priest telling the school children to cross the street really gets around. I’ve heard it from different people in different parts of the country. Unfortunately no one seems to know the name of this priest. I guess some details get lost in the retelling of the story. As for these “union services” these are not worship services by a Catholic definition although they may be considered as such by protestants. None of these services is a Mass and none of them include a communion service. Yes, John XXIII and Vatican II opened the door for protestants but it’s up to them to walk through.

1. Not all the early Church Fathers are revered by the Catholic Church. I believe even Origen and Tertullian were judged to be heretics for some reason. Sorry, I read them years ago and forgot the details. And there were differences of opinion among some who were declared heretics, of course, so now are counted out as Church Fathers. It’s easier to get agreement if you declare heretical views that didn’t match Church Council votes. As in the case of Arius, for example.

Origen and Tertullian were never declared saints in the church. The case against Origen is very complex and theologians are equally divided about him. The case against Tertullian is a lot simpler. Tertullian came from paganism into Christianity and then lapsed into Montanism and then into his own sect. As you know, or should know, the Catholic Church does not regard any of the Early Church Fathers as divinely inspired despite protestant allegations to the contrary. The ECF’s are regarded as historical witnesses of their time and place. So that when they write of the beliefs of their times we can accept their writing as historical evidence. Unfortunately for protestants not one of the early writers gives support to sola scriptura. In fact, I do not believe any of the early heretics did either. That came over a millenium later.

 

[inkaneer]

3. Don't even suggest that heretics weren't executed. Whole groups were attacked and many killed, whether the Hussites, Albigensians, Waldensians, Huguenots and many others over the centuries. As I recall the Crusaders even slaughtered many Orthodox on their way to the Holy Land and when they slayed all the inhabitants of Jerusalem (in 1099?). Memory of dates is a bit shaky. St. Thomas Aquinas favored execution of heretics - by the state. The church should notify the state of their heresy.

Inever said heretics weren’t killed. I said they weren’t killed by the church. Big difference there. As for the fourth Crusade you fail to mention that The pope forbade the crusaders from doing any harm to Christians or christian lands under penalty of excommunication. I know, its one of those little details that gets lost in the retelling of the story. You also forget to mention that 400 merchants from Venice were murdered in Constnatinople in 1182 along with other foreigners and other Venetians were expelled minus their property. That did not sit well with the Venetians. The sacking of Constantinople was in retribution for these actions as well as the actions of the Constantinians in prior Crusades. The sacking was the work of, who else but, the Doge of Venice, Enrico Dandolo. Check a history book to see if i am not correct.

Yes, Protestants killed Catholics as under Elizabeth I. Catholics killed Protestants as under Bloody Mary. Neither side can claim a good record in that regard. On my Protestant side (maternal), by the way, an ancestral grandfather fled Ghent, Belgium, to France, when the Grand Court (or whatever its name was) ordered him to appear for trial as a Huguenot. Instead, he fled by night with his family to France, until Huguenots were freely murdered there. So they then fled to England and his grandson etc were part of the Puritan migration to New England. My paternal side was French-Canadian Catholic with the first Archbishop of Quebec on my family tree. One reason why I’m interest in a spirit of Catholic-Protestant unity, but not union. Unlike you, apparently, I have no problem with Christians with different points of view on such matters as doctrine (e. g., transubstantiation) or practice (e. g., women clergy). Thank and let think. The main appeal of Protestantism to me is that the mainline denominations seem to tolerate various opinions without declaring those members persona non grata. The main appeal of Catholicism is some of the traditions that can become very dear to many.

The difference of course between Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth was that Mary, although a Catholic had no authority in the church while Elizabeth being the monarch was the head of the protestant church in England. So while Catholic may have killed protestants they were not acting under orders of the church but the same cannot be said of the protestants.

 PS As for slavery and your earlier comment. Neither Protestants or Catholics have anything to brag about. There were Protestant slavers, but by far the largest number of slaves went to Latin America and the West Indians - 85% or even more. The Spanish, Portuguese and French were the main slavers in those areas. Like in the famous Amistad case. One could raise all sorts of silly issues, like who burned down the Colored Orphan Asylum in New York City during the riots there during the Civil War? Mainly Irish Catholics. But I really shouldn't raise such 'gotcha' points as they are of such little importance today. Besides, II'm part Irish and my father-in-law came from County Donegal, Ireland - a staunch Catholic and devotee of the IRA! That might help you understand why I hope to see peace, harmony, reconciliation and understanding between Catholics and Protestants.

Again the slave trade was denounced by the church and those envolved in it incurred automatic excommunication. This was as early as 1537. However, the Baptists involvement in the KKK has gone on right up to present time. Edgar Ray “Preacher” Killen, baptist minister and a “kleagle” in the KKK was finally convicted in federal court in 2005 for the infamous “Mississippi Burning” murders of 1964. As for the "Colored Ophan Asylum fire that was the work of a mob who were rioting against the new military draft law which targeted lower class working men while sparing the wealthy men who could pay the “Commutation Fee”. The mob was rioting against “draft dodgers”. Many but not the majority of those arrested had Irish names. That is not surprising seeing that Catholics were restricted to the lower economic class by protestants and the first wave of Irish immigration occurred just about a decade before. Also you did not mention that the asylum was not the only building that was torched. It was one of several and was not itself a target. You fail to mention that as well as the fact that one of the heros of the day was a fireman named Paddy McCaffrey. So why do you even mention this if, as you say, it is a “silly” issue.

 

[Roy5]

It amazes me, Inkaneer, that you hold on to such a wild prejudice against Protestantism. It’s the way I feel about the KKK, Nazism and Bolshevism, but certainly not about fellow Christians or other segments of Christianity, whether I agree with them or not. You seem to have such a deep-rooted hostility toward Protestantism, the variety I might have run into in Ireland 100 years ago - even though some of the leaders against British rule were Protestants (Parnell etc) and some of the Catholic hierarchy there played footsie with the British occupiers.

I don't recall ever chatting with either a Catholic or a Protestant with such intense religious bitterness based on some facts and some half-truths and much debatable history.. Well, when I was a young child my siblings and I were warned several times by other children that we were going to hell because we attended a Protestant church on special occasions with our maternal grandfather. To think that some folks actually believed that was a sin!

I don’t intend to dialogue anymore, but do suggest that you sit back, relax, and try your best to take a somewhat objective view of history. The more you learn the less you will be disturbed by Protestantism. Maybe say a prayer or two for wisdom. I worry more about your bias intensity than your bias in recounting history. It’s Catholics like you that could push me away from the church. Fortunately, I have never run into Catholics like you, except for a few here on CAF. I will pray for you (and them) as I am concerned about the spiritual welfare of all those who use religious disagreements as a club to clobber others.

 Christ would want Christians to live in an atmosphere of peace and mutual respect. You seem to have zero respect for the faith of most of your countrymen, even going back to Washington and Franklin, Adams and Monroe, Lincoln and Roosevelt (both of them), etc. Are you an American? I know the internet is worldwide and I know that certain Irishmen, Croatians, and others bear the scars of more modern religious conflict. I recall reading of the Croats and Slovaks and their questionable World War II alliances. But that is old history and should be forgiven and forgotten, certainly not held against Croats and Slovaks today. (I have been privileged to spend time in both nations, by the way - beautiful countries.) 

  We attended "South Pacific" recently - the play by the Gershwins - and one song may apply. I don't recall all the words but they include "you've got to be taught to hate...." 

  God bless people of every faith and may religion become a bridge and not a barrier.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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Having departed from topic, this thread is now closed.