Did Jesus have sisters and brothers or step brothers/sisters?

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I believe Mary was a lifelong virgin and the brothers and sisters of Jesus referred to are cousins or close followers. However, I then do not know what to make of Matthew 1:25: “And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.” This is from the Douay-Rheims, but all translations are similarly worded, indicating Joseph “knew” Mary after the birth of Jesus. The KJV reads: “And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”

So, can anyone help with this? It seems to indicate Mary and Joseph had marital relations, though no mention of any children other than Jesus can be found in the Bible as far as I know.

The prophecy said that "a virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son,’ and that was accomplished whether Mary remained a virgin or not.

My personal belief is that she was always a virgin, but Matthew seems to contradict that a bit.
 
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Not necessarily.

The word until here just says what happened up to the time of Christ’s birth. It doesn’t imply anything about what happened after that, although our modern use of the word until seems to imply that.

One example of this, look at 2 Samuel 6:23, which says, “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” We’re obviously not supposed to assume that she had children after she died.

Some still might object to this line of reasoning. However, if you read all of Matthew 1, in context, it is easy to see that all Matthew is speaking of is events up to the Virgin Birth. Nothing in the entire chapter speaks of future events. So to assume Matthew is speaking of a future event in this one single verse is poor exegesis.

Hope this helps,

God Bless
 
Okay, thank you. I will read the whole chapter again with that in mind.
 
ConstantLearner concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary:
My personal belief is that she was always a virgin, but Matthew seems to contradict that a bit.
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Then your heart AND your mind is in the correct place.

Good work.
However, I then do not know what to make of Matthew 1:25: “And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.”
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Ok. WHY do you think Joseph “knew Mary not” at THAT time frame?

Remember, the angel TOLD St. Joseph to take Mary into his home.

Remember when he was told this, Mary was ALREADY Joseph’s WIFE (recall Joseph considered “divorcing” Mary. You don’t divorce someone who ISN’T your wife).

So WHY do you think Joseph “knew Mary not” at THAT time frame when Mary was miraculously pregnant with Jesus?
 
GALATIANS 1:18-19 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.
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BartholomewB:
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How about Galatians 1:19: “James, the brother of the Lord”? I read that as indicating a close degree of kinship.

We are still left with the question, What degree of kinship, exactly? But I’m pretty sure it’s Paul’s intention here to convey something more than just membership of the same village, tribe, etc.
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Why are you so sure what St. Paul meant concerning James relationship to Jesus here?

After all, there were two Apostles named James.

One Apostle named James had Zebedee for his dad.

The other Apostle named James had Alpheus as his father.

Are you trying to say one of THESE St. James is a uterine sibling of Jesus?

Are you attempting to say St. Paul in Galatians 1 is referring to SOME other Apostle James? If so I’d like to see the evidence from Scripture.

Are you saying something altogether different?

Please clarify.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Cathoholic said:
So WHY do you think Joseph “knew Mary not” at THAT time frame when Mary was miraculously pregnant with Jesus?
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I don’t believe he did when he brought her into his home or any time prior to Jesus’ birth. The passage only seemed to indicate that he might have after Jesus’ birth, but I really don’t believe he ever did. I believe Mary was always a virgin and Jesus had no brothers or sisters. Perhaps older step-siblings, whose father was Joseph, a widower at the time of his marriage to Mary.
 
ConstantLearner:
I don’t believe he did when he brought her into his home or any time prior to Jesus’ birth . . .
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You are absolutely correct here.

But WHY do you think St. Joseph did NOT have marital relations here?

After all, marital relations are not sinful in the context of marriage.

So WHY do you think St. Joseph did NOT have such relations?
 
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Cathoholic said:
So WHY do you think St. Joseph did NOT have such relations?
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This debate has been held exhaustively over 2000 years. All conclusions that were to be reached have been reached and the Catholic Church passed final judgement on the matter and proclaimed the dogmas.

I only need that much. The day I get an interested to know more, I’ll go read the “immense body of knowledge” already produced on the subject - by the most authorized of authors throughout the centuries.
 
Matthew 13:55 James, Joseph, Simon and Judus were not brothers of Jesus but cousins. There are some ways to look and see that this is not the Mary the mother of God that the Gospels were talking about. 1) In Luke 1:34 The angel had just told Mary the news that she will conceive our Lord. And Mary tells the angel ( How shall this be done, since I do not KNOW MAN ).
2) it’s highly unlikely that Jesus would have entrusted John to take care of his mother when he had four brothers. The family always would have taken care of each other and John is not a family member why did Jesus leave her to him. John 19:26
Also in John 19:25 John tells us " but standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s Sister, Mary the wife of clopas, and Mary Magdalene. So we see here that the mother possibly had a blood sister. So Joseph and James would be cousins of Jesus.
3) Matthew 27:55-56 there were a lot of Marys following Jesus Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and joseph mother of the sons of Zeb’edee. The second Mary we saw in Matthew chapter Matthew 13:56
4) We see there are three Marys that are at the foot of the cross then go to bury Jesus in Matthew 27:59-61. It says in verse 61 that Mary Magdalene and the ( OTHER ) Mary were there sitting opposite the sepulchre. John would not have used the other Mary if he was talking about Jesus’ mother. What theologians argue is that this is not the mother Mary but the mother of James and Joseph.
5) We also have evidence outside of the Bible the would show that James and Joseph were not the brothers of Jesus from the early Church Father’s.
Eusebius a , fourth century church father wrote… After James the just had suffered martyrdom for the same reason as the Lord, Simon, his cousin, the son of Clopas was appointed Bishop, whom they all proposed because he was another cousin of the Lord.
Eusebius, Church history,4.22.4; tran. LCL 1.375

Another sign that James and Joseph were only cousins from the early Church.
6) You see Paul tells us in the Acts of the apostles that James or James the Just was a bishop of Jerusalem and after he was martyred Simon took his place. And the early Church Father’s knew that they were not brothers
7) We see more from the Church Father’s
After the martyrdom of James and the capture of Jerusalem which immediately followed the story goes that those of the Apostles and of the Disciples of the Lord who were still alive came together from every place with those who were, humanly speaking, of the family of the Lord, for many of them were then still alive, and they all took Council together as to whom they ought to adjust worthy to succeed James, and all unanimously decided that Simon the son of Clopas, whom the scripture of the Gospel also mentions, was worthy of the Throne of the diocese there. He was, so it is said, a COUSIN of the savior, for Hegesippus relates that Clopas was the brother of Joseph.
Eusebius, Church history 3.11-12; LCL 1.231-33)
Not only is Mary the mother of James and Joseph related to Mary the Mother of God but Joseph The Virgin Mary’s husband is related to Clopas.So this is the real cousins of Jesus.
 
Adgloriam:
This debate has been held exhaustively over 2000 years. All conclusions that were to be reached have been reached and the Catholic Church passed final judgement on the matter and proclaimed the dogmas.

I only need that much. The day I get an interested to know more, I’ll go read the “immense body of knowledge” already produced on the subject - by the most authorized of authors throughout the centuries.
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OK.

Let’s look at that.
This debate has been held exhaustively over 2000 years.
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So what? It constantly needs defending and ConstantLearner and others have had good questions here.

Why not teach them how to answer their own questions by helping them work through it?
All conclusions that were to be reached have been reached and the Catholic Church passed final judgement on the matter and proclaimed the dogmas.
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Again. So what. I agree with that. But if someone has questions on this subject you help them through it.

Perhaps they are having a little difficulty.
Msybe someone they know is having some issues they need answered.
Lurkers come here too reading and never commenting. Lurkers that are interested in answers.

My suggestion?

Instead of throwing around the weight of the Church and walking away, try teaching people to think through these issues. Its far more productive.
I only need that much. The day I get an interested to know more, I’ll go read . . .
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(Emphasis mine)

The problem with this is it is egocentric.

It assumes YOU are the only one here that I could be appealing to with my answers.
The day I get an interested to know more, I’ll go read
the “immense body of knowledge” already produced on the subject - by the most authorized of authors throughout the centuries.
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Yeah. Me too.

So since you’ve done all that reading, why don’t you finish my argument.

The question I posed basically asked "Since Joseph “knew Mary NOT” BEFORE Mary delivered Jesus . . .WHY do you think that was?

And with all your reading on the subject you and I both know the rhetorical question and the answer are both posed to Helvidius by St. Jerome 1600 years ago and I am using St. Jerome’s very questions…

You said . . .
I’ll go read the “immense body of knowledge” already produced on the subject - by the most authorized of authors throughout the centuries.
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That’s great Adgloriam. Me too.

But then after we read, after we take in knowledge, after we take in a deep breath . … . .we are expected to share these truths of the Catholic faith out to others.

We are called to share these Catholic truths.

Merry Christmas.
 
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Cathoholic said:
The problem with this is it is egocentric.
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Thanks for that, I’m still divided on what to think about my own egocentrism on that post. But I do enjoy the indication.
Cathoholic said:
Instead of throwing around the weight of the Church and walking away
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Did I do that??? Owwhhh, that’s just sweet 😀
Cathoholic said:
So since you’ve done all that reading
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I actually didn’t. What I do know is this: Posing the question “in that way and in those terms” is inherently violent. Personally, I believe in the apparitions of Our Lady of Fátima to the seer sister Lúcia while she was in Pontevedra and Tuy. There Our Lady requested for institution of the “Devotion of first Saturdays to the Immaculate Heart of Mary” precisely to repair offenses made against her. So, during my childhood I was faced with questions exactly phrased like yours here. And, it caused me scandal and pain for I knew not how to answer.

My suggestion: we both seem to be Catholics so let’s reason together here. Phrasing the question in that way may be dangerous -I talk from experience- and leave here my testimony for your to consider. Justifying the underlying reasons for my reaction.
Cathoholic said:
you and I both know the rhetorical question and the answer are both posed to Helvidius by St. Jerome 1600 years ago and I am using St. Jerome’s very questions…
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I didn’t know that, thanks for the reference. I’m a big fan of Saint Jerome. 😀 And of your good bibliographic references @Cathoholic…I’ll go straight for the honey pot now 🍯🍯🍯🍯🍯🍯🍯

Merry Christmas, and God bless.
 
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Cathoholic said:
Are you attempting to say St. Paul in Galatians 1 is referring to SOME other Apostle James? If so I’d like to see the evidence from Scripture.
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Yes, James the Lord’s brother (Gal 1:19) was not one of the Twelve. That seems to me to be a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the available evidence. It’s impossible to have certain knowledge of the identity of James the Just, one way or the other, but the balance of probabilities points in that direction, I think.
 
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Yes, James the Lord’s brother (Gal 1:19) was not one of the Twelve. That seems to me to be a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the available evidence. It’s impossible to have certain knowledge of the identity of James the Just, one way or the other, but the balance of probabilities points in that direction, I think.
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Fair enough.

I was wondering if you thought Galatians 1:19 was positing James as a uterine sibling of Jesus (of which there is no evidence for. And I was going to ask for that evidence as I am quite sure none exists).

If you want to theorize this is another James altogether, (and never mentioned in the Gospels in the context of an Apostle at least) I’m fine with that. (That can be suggested historically–which is WHY I am OK with it–but there is no evidence forvthis Biblically. And there is no evidence from Scriture OR from history that this James is a uterine sibling of Jesus).

As long as the “uterine sibling” conclusion isn’t being invoked here (because there is no evidence of the Apostle James of Galatians 1:19 being a uterine sibling of Jesus).

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GALATIANS 1:18-19. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother.
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Cathoholic said:
I was wondering if you thought Galatians 1:19 was positing James as a uterine sibling of Jesus (of which there is no evidence for. And I was going to ask for that evidence as I am quite sure none exists).
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In my posts Nos. 45 and 67 on this thread I have stated my view on the question of “the Lord’s brethren.”
Recapitulating, there are three views: (1) Joseph’s children by an earlier marriage, (2) the children of Mary’s sister, i.e. Jesus’ cousins, (3) the children of Joseph and Mary (“uterine siblings”). The first of those three is the one that I find most convincing.
 
BartholomewB:
In my posts Nos. 45 and 67 on this thread I have stated my view on the question of “the Lord’s brethren.”
Recapitulating, there are three views: (1) Joseph’s children by an earlier marriage, (2) the children of Mary’s sister, i.e. Jesus’ cousins, (3) the children of Joseph and Mary (“uterine siblings”). The first of those three is the one that I find most convincing.
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The more of the Fathers I read (and I spent several months off and on of looking into it, reading the Fathers directly or I should say, translations of the Fathers directly), I came away with two things.

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1- That I was certain that people described as “brothers” of Jesus were absolutely NOT uterine siblings of Jesus.

And 2 - That using the information that we have now in English translations, I could not come to a conclusion of exactly HOW these “brothers” were related to Jesus (except again to say, they clearly were NOT uterine “brothers”).

.

So the best that I can say, is the same thing the Catechism says of these “brothers”.

The best that I can say about these “brothers” (and “sisters”) is that they were “close relatives” or more literally “close relations” and leave it at that.

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CCC 500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus”, are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls “the other Mary”.158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159
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CCC 501 Jesus is Mary’s only son, but her spiritual motherhood extends to all men . . . . .
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There is a flow of ancient manuscripts still being translated into English so perhaps sometime in the future, I will be able to say MORE definitively what degree of relative(s) these “brothers” are, but for now, “close relatives” is the best I can do, along with also being sure these “brothers” clearly are NOT uterine siblings too.

So I never really try to argue any of the points beyond these as I don’t have enough information to back up points beyond these.

Again
  • "Brothers" (and for that matter “sisters”) definitely NOT uterine brothers of Jesus.
  • "Brothers" ARE “close relations” of Jesus (of possibly varying degrees).
My own personal view?

St. Joseph’s brother who was married and had children died (probably while Jesus was a young teen). Sts. Mary and Joseph took them into their home (along with their mother) until they were of age.

But admittedly, the data is too sketchy for me to attempt to defend.
 
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Thank you to all who provided answers that helped lead to some clarity, on my part, at least, on this issue. I appreciate it greatly.
 
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Cathoholic said:
Dr. Pitre was very critical of Ehrman and gave many good reasons why he should not be considered a trustworthy Biblical scholar.
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Could you give us a summary in your own words for those of us who don’t want to spent $110 to find out why?
 
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