Did Jesus have to die a painful death or was it sufficient to just die normally?

[jcrichton]

Did Jesus have to die a painful death (including the scourging at the pillar, the carrying of the cross, and the actual method of execution, etc.) or was it sufficient to just die a normal death?

From my understanding, the ultimate price of sin is death. So there is no “lighter” sins or “greater” sins; each one would ultimately lead to death unless someone paid the price for it. (For both venial and mortal sins the price is still death, right? Or am I completely confused here?)

I know that Jesus is the new passover lamb. Now in the Old Testament, I’m pretty sure that when they slaughtered their lambs for passover they didn’t torture them or anything. I’m pretty sure they just had it slain.

So my question is, did Jesus really have to go through all that pain or was it fine for him to die normally? (This is my first question)

My second question is, if he DID have to go through that pain, why did God allow Pilate’s wife (Claudia) to have a dream (which could possibly cancel his execution), and why did God insert many events that could have saved Jesus from a horrible death? By these events I mean the interpretation that Pilate had Jesus scourged to attain more mercy from the people, and some others. I cannot quite remember any more than these events now, but I hope you know what I mean.

A friend of mine, also a Catholic, told me that contrary to popular belief, Jesus DID NOT have to suffer a painful death; as proof of this God tried his best to save Jesus from the said painful death through the events I listed above.

I really, really, really want to know the answer for this.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Hi, Greenblitz!

I understand what you (your friend) are thinking… why the horror… why the pain… why the prolonged agony… and if you compare a sacrificial lamb’s experience (which would seem clean-cut and to the point: killed and offered) it seems as overkill… yet, let us consider that a lamb is a symbol and that the lamb did not die for the other lambs… Jesus was a conscious offer instead of humanity and the hatred of humanity and its cruelty and its ignorance would all befall upon that Sacrificial Lamb (described in Isiah’s Suffering Servant).

Jesus was not only set to die by the people He Came to Save but He was so rejected that He was given upon the hands of the Gentiles (a dreadful things to all Jews) and placed within the ranks of the most vile (Crucifixion)… but He had to be broken-down, defiled, mocked, and despised… not only rejected and abandoned!

…as for revelations… these are made not to halt God’s Salvific Plan but to prove the concrete establishment of Salvation on earth:

**16 He came to Nazara, where he had been brought up, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day as he usually did. He stood up to read, 17 and they handed him the scroll of the prophet Isaiah. Unrolling the scroll he found the place where it is written: 18 The spirit of the Lord is on me, for he has anointed me to bring the good news to the afflicted. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives, sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, 19 to proclaim a year of favour from the Lord. 20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the assistant and sat down. And all eyes in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 Then he began to speak to them, ‘This text is being fulfilled today even while you are listening.’ **(St. Luke 4:16-21)

**20 Remember the words I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. 21 But it will be on my account that they will do all this to you, because they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come, if I had not spoken to them, they would have been blameless; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Anyone who hates me hates my Father. ** (St. John 15:20-23)

There are other confirmations (inclusive of the many prophecies fulfilled) as the Magi, the knowledge that the King of the Jews would come from Bethlehem, the Centurion who acknowledged Christ as the Son of God, to the thief/criminal who chastised the unbeliever criminal who was also crucified along with Jesus and then Acknowledged Jesus as the Savior and pleaded for Mercy! All of these revelations are to assist man in understanding and to urge humanity to seek Salvation.

…hope this helps!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[grannymh]

Hi, thanks for your answer. From what I know (kindly correct me if I’m wrong), Adam and Eve committed the first sin. Because the consequences of sin are passed from generation to generation, we are all born with original sin. Jesus was able to save us from this original sin by his death and resurrection, allowing us to be saved. Subsequently any further sins we commit can now be forgiven because He paid for our sins in the cross already. I also know that he accepted this wholeheartedly. That is pretty much all I know.

Going back to what I said about my friend, he claims that Jesus still had to die. However, he claims that it did not have to be in this painful way. (Just clarifying this just in case)

Original Sin is unique because it shattered the relationship between humanity and Divinity. Adam freely chose to disobey God and thus lost his State of Original Holiness aka Sanctifying Grace. Because the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man” (CCC, 404) Adam’s descendants, via propagation, contract the State of Original Sin which is a deprivation of Original Holiness and Justice.

Adam was not divine and therefore, he could not restore humanity’s relationship with a Divine Being. Jesus Christ, as the Second Person of the Divine Trinity assumed human nature so He could act on behalf of Adam and his descendants, us. Being equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, He could make reparation for Original Sin. In His human nature, the One Person Jesus Christ obeyed His heavenly Father by offering reparation for Adam’s disobedience.

Here is a rather tough paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition.
Paragraph 475. Similarly, at the sixth ecumenical council, Constantinople III in 681, the Church confessed that Christ possesses two wills and two natural operations, divine and human. They are not opposed to each other, but cooperate in such a way that the Word made flesh willed humanly in obedience to his Father all that he had decided divinely with the Father and the Holy Spirit for our salvation. Christ’s human will “does not resist or oppose but rather submits to his divine and almighty will.”

This is from post 1. Emphasis is mine.
"A friend of mine, also a Catholic, told me that contrary to popular belief, Jesus DID NOT have to suffer a painful death; as proof of this God tried his best to save Jesus from the said painful death through the events I listed above."

The events listed above are these:
“My second question is, if he DID have to go through that pain, why did God allow Pilate’s wife (Claudia) to have a dream (which could possibly cancel his execution), and **why did God insert many events that could have saved Jesus from a horrible death? **By these events I mean the interpretation that Pilate had Jesus scourged to attain more mercy from the people, and some others. I cannot quite remember any more than these events now, but I hope you know what I mean.”

I am not sure how to exactly describe the error in bold. The actual situation of Original Sin required a Mediator Who is both human and divine. The Mediator is one Person with two natures, human and divine. The thoughts in bold sound like God is trying to save God. The reality is that God is saving humanity. (John 3: 16-17) Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases the State of Original Sin and brings a person into the State of Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace describes our sharing in the divine life of the Trinity. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)

Pilate and his wife were acting from the depths of their humanity, both good and bad, just as many at the foot of the cross wept in sorrow or blasphemed God. As for the extreme pain of Jesus’ assumed human nature, I understand and agree with many of the opinions above which appear to say that it was necessary. In the old days, we used to say that Jesus’ obedience opened the gates of heaven. By conquering human death, Jesus makes it possible for us to walk through those gates. Maybe Jesus’ agony assures us that all of us are included in His victory.

 

[ericc]

Did Jesus have to die a painful death (including the scourging at the pillar, the carrying of the cross, and the actual method of execution, etc.) or was it sufficient to just die a normal death?

From my understanding, the ultimate price of sin is death. So there is no “lighter” sins or “greater” sins; each one would ultimately lead to death unless someone paid the price for it. (For both venial and mortal sins the price is still death, right? Or am I completely confused here?)

I know that Jesus is the new passover lamb. Now in the Old Testament, I’m pretty sure that when they slaughtered their lambs for passover they didn’t torture them or anything. I’m pretty sure they just had it slain.

So my question is, did Jesus really have to go through all that pain or was it fine for him to die normally? (This is my first question)

My second question is, if he DID have to go through that pain, why did God allow Pilate’s wife (Claudia) to have a dream (which could possibly cancel his execution), and why did God insert many events that could have saved Jesus from a horrible death? By these events I mean the interpretation that Pilate had Jesus scourged to attain more mercy from the people, and some others. I cannot quite remember any more than these events now, but I hope you know what I mean.

A friend of mine, also a Catholic, told me that contrary to popular belief, Jesus DID NOT have to suffer a painful death; as proof of this God tried his best to save Jesus from the said painful death through the events I listed above.

I really, really, really want to know the answer for this.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Jesus bore ALL of mankind’s sins. The gruesomeness of his death I believe reflected the seriousness of mankind’s transgression against God. If it have been a quick easy painless death, I think it would have made light of the seriousness of all those sins. Skeptics would have quipped “It wasn’t a big deal” or “mankind got off lightly, slight tap on the wrist as punishment for all those crimes against humanity?, what kind of religion is that?”

 

[rcwitness]

I think there is something to be understood about the evil Prince of this World. He was given power over mankind through mankind’s choice to follow his way. Jesus stepped into subjection to that power, which the devil has, on our behalf. Certainly not because He abandoned anything of God, but because He was to save all mankind through the flesh of mankind being subject to the Prince of this World.

It was inevitable for the Devil to put Jesus to the test of physical pain, even unto death. This was a battle between Satan and his power over us, and Satan was not going to go easy on the One who was taking away his power.

It was God’s will that the Messiah suffer this out of love and as a pure and undefiled Son of God.