Did Jesus have to die on the Cross?

[Pinkyyy]

I’m sure you were sincere, that dosen’t mean you didn’t use prayer as a tool. Your have no need to type out a prayer, you certianly didn’t need to include in that prayer charges about the individual, like that they hate the truth.

Lots of people type prayers on here - “it’s a free country” as they say.

The Jews don’t even acknoledge he was a prophet, neither do Bhuddists, Confuscians, Hindus etc. Yet you don’t go after them with the same fury.

And that is why none of t hem will be saved

So Bosnians Muslims are justafied in hateing, spreading bigotry about, and generally slandering Christians?

They too can say what they want - that’s why we will pray for them

I’ve had friends who were humiliated by Americans at Airports, seperate and picked out to be searched simply because they are Muslims. They don’t break any laws, they are wonderful people, yet they get humiliated, should they be justafied in hateing Americans?

Yes, I actually do think they are justified. My husband is Catholic. I am not. He is middle eastern (I am white). You are right about airports - and don’t even get me started on the CHURCH either - I have never experiences such hate and racism as I have in some of our local churches from whites against my husband - even people calling the police on him after his father died and he was worshiping there. Really - made me never want to walk into another CC church again when I think about it - needless to say, it took us a long time to find a good church in our area where there is not (as much) racism. On the other hand, there was an outpour from our city against these persons that did this to my husband and I saw a lot of good in that. I do not blame them in feeling bad about Americans sometimes.

 

[BCven86]

As for the question of inspiration: I agree that prophecy definitely does point to and verify the Gospel, however I argue only on a historical basis. My question for you is how are the letters of Paul, Peter, etc. inspired? No where within those letters do they proclaim themselves to be inspired, even if they did how can you say that the self-proclamations are valid?

I reason that the only way that we can say all of the rest of the NT is inspired is by accepting the Church’s proclamation saying so from the 4th century, in which case we have to accept the Church’s authority at least up until that point. Do you disagree?

As for sola-scriptura, the Bible itself denies that it should act as the sole means of authority. I don’t have the verses offhand to show you that it does in fact say so, but as soon as I get home I will get them to you. The verses say to stick to tradition, both written and oral.

Also, I ask what you think of what the early church fathers believed? The link below offers a brief explanation of why faith and works is possible followed by an extensive list ECFs and their quotations stating that their belief supports that doctrine. Considering that these people grew up in the time at which Jesus live and die and/or when the apostles were teaching I think that they would have the most clear picture of what Jesus meant for His church. How do you account for the discrepancy between your belief and that of the apostles and the ECFs?

catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

 

[rinnie]

Jesus didnt Have to do anything. He is God. But he did die for our sins. Could he have gave us Salvation another way. sure, But why he did he do it the way he did, only he knows. I guess it goes back to the story about the man who asked him how much do you love us and he stretched out his hands and said this much. No one has ever loved you that much nor will. Thats why noone is God except God.

 

[RealEstateCarol]

Lets take Eph 1:1 foe example.
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus

“By the will of God” says it for me.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
This means we should interpret scripture with scripture. If a verse is unclear in what it is saying, see what the rest of the Bible says.

I believe the early church fathers believed what the Bible says. We are saved by faith alone. As time went by and men started adding rules and their own beliefs, the Bible was pushed aside and the church was told they had to believe what they said. The Bible says over and over that we are saved by faith and not of our selves.
**The Bible says no sin can enter into Heaven. **
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Psalm 3:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

**We have all sinned. **
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

There has to be a death payment made for sin.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus made that death payment.
Romans 5:8
But God commends His Love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Jesus Christ died for us.

All we have to do is accept that payment.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

It is that simple.

 

[inJESUS]

RealEstateCarol,

If you accept Jesus’ salvation, can you still sin and be saved? is that what you mean when you say salvation by faith alone?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Theres allot of symbolism that goes in with the crucifixion account but if the Jews had not rejected Christ and he had lived to die a natural death would we still be saved by him dying a sinless man and then ressurect to prove his divinity?

You are saved by Jesus being the righteous judge to give you mercy if you repent of sin. He would still be that if he didn’t die, his death doesn’t do anything for wicked sinners who refuse to repent.

Events were just such that he had to obey God and refuse to be quiet, so he was martyred.

 

[Rayaan]

Listen people you can believe what you like, you have free will to choose, if you have disbelief in your heart you can never see the truth before you ( you will most likely respond the same to me ) …

But be aware, if you dont take the consequences of your actions and life into your own hands and if you fail to understand that the only route to salvation is surrendering to believe in the one true God and the implementation of his will in your life and repenting when you have sinned then you will face the consequences on Judgment Day…

Belief in the prophets alone wont save you, taking partners with God wont save you, only submission to God and his will, will put you on the correct path.

 

[inJESUS]

Belief in the prophets alone wont save you, taking partners with God wont save you, only submission to God and his will, will put you on the correct path.

correct.

So ya Rayaan, what happened on that day of crucifixion according to you?

 

[BCven86]

I believe the early church fathers believed what the Bible says. We are saved by faith alone. As time went by and men started adding rules and their own beliefs, the Bible was pushed aside and the church was told they had to believe what they said. The Bible says over and over that we are saved by faith and not of our selves.

… I just sent you a list of ECF that dated to before the Bible saying that they believed in faith and works. I don’t understand where you get this from. If you do believe that they believed in faith alone I would like you to cite sources. As far as I know faith-alone only came with the Reformation.

Also, you have not given me any reason that I should not accept the authority of the Church; until you do I will dismiss all of your verses as subjective interpretations. In order to even be able to use the Epistles as leverage it is necessary to say that the Church was infallible at least up until the time that they declared the Letters as inspired. Assuming that the Church was infallible at the moment they proclaimed the inspiration of the Bible, it is clear to see that the same Church (i.e. the ECF) believed in faith and works. How can the Church be infallible in one thing (i.e. the Bible) and fallible in another (i.e. justification). It is unreasonable.

Maybe a further explanation of what ‘works’ actually are might clear things up:

Do you remember when you made the choice to follow God with all your heart? When you made that choice to turn away from sin and toward Jesus? How did your actions change after that moment in your life? Did you continue to keep on sinning or did your life slowly turn more righteous due to your pursuit of God? When we say ‘faith and works’, the ‘faith’ refers to the decision and mental transformation you had when that happened, ‘works’ refers to how your actions change as a result of that mental change.

Imagine a situation where somebody you know makes the choice to repent and pursue God. Now imagine that they proclaim that they have made a turn for God but none of their actions support this claim, the friend continues sinning and he does not follow what Jesus taught in the Bible. You would question true conversion, right? We would say that this person has faith but not works.

Now imagine the same situation where the person repents, and following that decision you can truly see that he has; he becomes selfless, he gives money to the homeless, etc… just as Jesus had taught. You would say that this person did have a true conversion, correct?

Faith and works are two sides to the same coin, faith (mental transformation) without works (actions that support mental transformation) is dead (i.e. the person’s actions do not support the decision that he made). Does this make sense?

 

[BCven86]

By the way, I’ve got an .mp3 of a Homily by my priest that may offer a supporting explanation, message me privately if you would like me to send it to you.

 

[RealEstateCarol]

Jesus paid for all sin.
When Jesus died on the cross we were not even born. He died for all of the sins that we will ever commit.

Heb. 10:10
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

What I know of by faith alone is what the Bible says. There is no place in the Bible that says we are saved by works and faith.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[RealEstateCarol]

The early church? I assume you mean the people Paul writes to in his books.From what the Bible says, they believed in faith alone.

I have no problem with accepting the authority of the church as long as what they say does not contradict the Bible.

I do not ask you to accept my interpretations. I hope that you would read those verses on your own and decide for yourself what they say.

The church infallible… The only thing that is infallible is God’s word. I choose not to base my beliefs on something that is written by a man.

Turn away from sin? We will always sin. We have a sin nature.

Works can be anything one might think will help them get to Heaven.
Going to church. Trying to keep the Ten Commandments. Gifts to charity. Good works. Prayers. Water baptism. I could go on.

You are not rejecting me, you are rejecting the Bible.

 

[BlaineTog]

Jesus paid for all sin.
When Jesus died on the cross we were not even born. He died for all of the sins that we will ever commit.

You still have to accept his forgiveness, which is what the works are.

In any case, you’re derailing the thread.

 

[BCven86]

Yeah I’m done with this, I feel as though you are being unreasonable.

Ladies and gentlemen, I show you the danger of sola-scriptura

 

[rinnie]

The early church? I assume you mean the people Paul writes to in his books.From what the Bible says, they believed in faith alone.

I have no problem with accepting the authority of the church as long as what they say does not contradict the Bible.

I do not ask you to accept my interpretations. I hope that you would read those verses on your own and decide for yourself what they say.

The church infallible… The only thing that is infallible is God’s word. I choose not to base my beliefs on something that is written by a man.

Turn away from sin? We will always sin. We have a sin nature.

Works can be anything one might think will help them get to Heaven.
Going to church. Trying to keep the Ten Commandments. Gifts to charity. Good works. Prayers. Water baptism. I could go on.

You are not rejecting me, you are rejecting the Bible.

Ok tell me this, what in the RCC do we do that contradicts the bible? Also just because we have a nature to sin by no means says that we dont have the free will to turn away from it. We are to be GODlike. Now how was the CHurch written by man. Everything in the RCC is inspired by Christ himself. He is the Church. Unless I am misunderstanding you.

 

[living_water]

The early church? I assume you mean the people Paul writes to in his books.From what the Bible says, they believed in faith alone.

Sola Fide was not taught by the ECFs. So, according to your logic, either nobody was smart enough to interpret Scripture for the first 1500 years after the resurrection of Jesus, or nobody was really a Christian until Martin Luther set us all straight.

However, I would submit to you that your ideas above are decidedly un-Biblical.

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

James 2: 19-20 "19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless

Romans 2 : 6-8 God will give to each person according to what he has done.7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger

The church infallible… The only thing that is infallible is God’s word. I choose not to base my beliefs on something that is written by a man.

As you know, the Word is Jesus Christ, who was a living human being.

The Bible was written by men, RealEstateCarol. Men who were inspired by God, but their hands were not taken over by a great force that pushed back their minds and used their bodies, as is the case with automatic writing. The Scriptures were written by the Church, (the Bride of Christ), and the Scriptures were written FOR the Church, and the canon of Scripture was determined by the Church, and the Scripture is interpreted by the Church. The Church, as the Bride of Christ and the Handmaiden of God penned the Scriptures. If you deny this, you deny both logic and history.

realestatecarol:

You are not rejecting me, you are rejecting the Bible.

It isn’t smart to make dramatic accusations against your brothers and sisters in Christ without something to back it up. How?

 

[Angelos]

Belief in the prophets alone wont save you, taking partners with God wont save you, only submission to God and his will, will put you on the correct path.

Yet your beloved scripture says that submission to God and His will is only through belief in Mohammad!

 

[paarsurrey]

he had lived to die a natural death

Hi

I understand that it is only a misconception of Paul that Jesus died on Cross for atonement of sins. Jesus did not die on Cross and died a natural death in India and is buried there.

Thanks

 

[Angelos]

Hi

I understand that it is only a misconception of Paul that Jesus died on Cross for atonement of sins. Jesus did not die on Cross and died a natural death in India and is buried there.

Thanks

I understand that the Koran was unaware of your “new” assertion. I wish you had informed Allah of the so-called fact that Jesus died in India. It is also likely that the Koran refers to a graveyard in India when it says “Allah took Jesus up to Himself”. Either Allah was in a burial site in India or that burial site was primarily in heaven!

 

[BCven86]

The entire Gospel is historically verifiable through countless other sources from the time period that exist in the Vatican Library. Most people that deny Christianity do not deny his death on the cross, it is historically accurate.