Did Jesus HAVE to die?

[NotWorthy]

I know the significance behind the perfect sacrifice that Jesus made for our Salvation, but I can’t help but be struck by two verses of Jesus’.

Matthew 23:37 - “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!”

and Matthew 26:39 (and 42) - “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

This leads me to wonder what would have happened if Jerusalem (and all of Judea) would have listened and repented, as Ninevah did?

Appended: Let me clarify. I don’t understand perfectly the sacrifice that Jesus made. I know that its a mystery that I’ll never completely have a hold on, at least while I live in this world.

 

[littleone]

Hi
in the beginning no Jesus didn’t have to die, because all was how God created everything. It was at the intervention of sin into Gods creation in the human sence that Jesus had to come on this earth and in time to die.
Remember all was created and writen “in the begining” as all creation such as flowers, people, animals there is always the birth (begining of the creation) then the fruit from the person, tree, animal and God’s creation. Then comes the fruit in the biblical sence of the life of mankind there came a time where God had anointed there to be the time of change just as there is the time of change in tides of the water, the life of people, the day and night.

In the biblical time there is the time where all came to a head and God brought forward Jesus His Son for it was the time to change from fleshly understanding to spiritual and for the time of God speaking through prophets to God speaking through his people.

Jesus tells us that unless a seed dies it cannot give new fruit. jesus was the new fruit bringing forward the new life for mankind.
Scripture tells us tht through one man there was death and through another man (Jesus) there is life.
When Jesus cried out to His Father it was in His humanness that He knew, felt and understood His death. The difference was though that His death was not for a human but to take the sins of EVERY person therefore every sin.
That is the reason why Jesus cried out “i thirst” not for water but for more souls.

Well that is a little, I hope it might have helped

Godbless

 

[NotWorthy]

Littleone, that is good information, but it doesn’t answer the question.

What would have happened if Jerusalem had converted. Jesus mourned the sinfulness of Jerusalem and desired her conversion - how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!" - and so I wonder, what would have happened if Jerusalem would have converted.

The fact that Jesus wished for the cup to pass His lips, leads me to think that this was, in some way, an option; albeit an option that was closed due to our sinfulness.

BTW, this thread is merely an opening to reflect on Scripture, nothing more.

 

[Nita]

I know the significance behind the perfect sacrifice that Jesus made for our Salvation, but I can’t help but be struck by two verses of Jesus’.

Matthew 23:37 - “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!”

and Matthew 26:39 (and 42) - “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

This leads me to wonder what would have happened if Jerusalem (and all of Judea) would have listened and repented, as Ninevah did?

BTW, this thread is merely an opening to reflect on Scripture, nothing more.

You wonder what would have happened if Jerusalem had converted; I wonder what would have happened if Adam had admitted his guilt (instead of blaming Eve) and then asked God for forgiveness.

But, there really is no “what if” since God KNEW before He ever created us what Adam would do and what “Jerusalem” would do (that they would not repent/convert). Which then raises another question: why then, did Jesus bother to make these statements?

**"…I yearned to gather…". ** I think He wanted to let us know again how much He has always wanted to forgive us. It’s not as tho this was the first time God had revealed this desire, but humans seem to need to have things repeated. The particular words Our Lord uses in this passage have always conveyed to me a Divine “ache” in God’s heart. I think Jesus wanted to reveal this to us, hence the statement.

"if possible, let the cup pass…" This statement reveals that the physical torment and (no doubt) spiritual warfare He was about to undergo was real. Some of the earlier heresies denied the presence of the Divinity during Our Lord’s passion and death. They held that the Divine presence would have departed when the passion began since it would not have been fitting for God to experience such things).

"…yet not as I will, but as You will." Obedience/love/obedience/love - of God. The first and greatest commandment. This is the verbal expression of it as it is actually being obeyed and lived out.

Just my thoughts,
Nita

 

[NicPais83]

I don’t believe that there was ever a “what if” in the plan. During the Exultet (sp?) at the Easter Vigil, the Deacon sings “oh necessary fall.” God always knew what we were going to choose, and I think that the game plan was always for us to be saved through Christ’s sacrifice. We therefore become His adopted sons and daughters. But, to speculate…

If Judea had repented, then we could hypothetically say that Jesus wouldn’t have died, and His incarnation would only have been for show. St. Paul says that if Jesus is not risen, that we’re pretty pathetic in our beliefs and practices, and I’d have to agree, since one of the results of Jesus’s death and resurrection is that salvation was made possible, not just for Jerusalem, but also for us Gentiles, who were as far from being Jewish as you get. Finally, you’d have to wonder if God was lying, or simply messing with our heads in that none of the Old Testament prophecies would have been fulfilled.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

This question seems to go to the heart of the Franciscan-Dominican debate of blood atonement vs Incarnation aspect of redemption that at times leads people to liberalism ( I’m saved no matter what I do since the Incarnation deifies me) or ultra-conservatism ( unhealthy asceticism and flagellation) and that both become a religion in itself to the determent of actual church practice or teaching.

I can’t see where either is absolutely wrong, unless taken to the extreme. As Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft writes though, a debt cannot be forgotten, it must be forgiven. And it cannot be forgiven without taking something away from the person forgiving the debt, like forgiving you a 100$ debt makes me 100$ poorer. Sin is a debt to God. Only God could pay such a debt as we owe due to our sin, less we all incur eternal damnation.

What, though, is the “sacrifice” of the mass if blood atonement is wrong, and isn’t this why Jesus did HAVE to die?

 

[NotWorthy]

You wonder what would have happened if Jerusalem had converted; I wonder what would have happened if Adam had admitted his guilt (instead of blaming Eve) and then asked God for forgiveness.

I have to relate the words that Adam used, for it throws God into the “Blame Department”. I nearly busted out laughing in Mass as I heard the reading on Genesis during the Feast of the Assumption - **The man replied, "The woman whom you put here with me–she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate it." You see, God? If You hadn’t put this woman here with me, I wouldn’t have eaten the apple! So it’s sort of Your fault." Ok, maybe I have an overactive imagination, as is demonstrated by my OP.

But as to your point, I think Adam would have been forgiven if he would have sought God out after committing his sin. I also think Adam would have been rewarded if he would have called on God for help when first confronted by Satan in the garden.

**"…I yearned to gather…". ** I think He wanted to let us know again how much He has always wanted to forgive us. It’s not as tho this was the first time God had revealed this desire, but humans seem to need to have things repeated. The particular words Our Lord uses in this passage have always conveyed to me a Divine “ache” in God’s heart. I think Jesus wanted to reveal this to us, hence the statement.

This brings to mind the phrase that every child hates to hear and never fully appreciates until they find their selves saying the same thing to their future children, “This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you, my child”.

Just my thoughts,
Nita

I like your thoughts on this, Nita!

 

[littleone]

Littleone, that is good information, but it doesn’t answer the question.

What would have happened if Jerusalem had converted.
**Would it have been that way? All through the old testament the Jews were an arrogant people who God relented his actions over and over again, all because they are His chosen people.The point is that they didn’t repent and will not change to accept Jesus until the fulfillment of the book of revelations. **

Jesus mourned the sinfulness of Jerusalem and desired her conversion - how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!" - and so I wonder, what would have happened if Jerusalem would have converted.
Your question is, sorry to say, non found, it never happened. We can live in the “truth” or in the life of supposition, and in living in the latter then we would live not relating to the truth. Here I am not saying that you live either way, I see your note at the bottom.

The fact that Jesus wished for the cup to pass His lips, leads me to think that this was, in some way, an option; albeit an option that was closed due to our sinfulness.In all forms of humanness you could be right, however since Jesus was still God in the spirit and has the spirit on Him then we must look at the question from that point and know or maybe realise that there was no option since Jesus came solely for that purposs.
Godbless

BTW, this thread is merely an opening to reflect on Scripture, nothing more.

 

[cheeto1]

This leads me to wonder what would have happened if Jerusalem (and all of Judea) would have listened and repented, as Ninevah did?

This is just the kind of question I love. And what could they do
to repent? Well, to start off with, when they arrested Jesus, all
the apostles would have to refuse to leave His side. Then what?
Would they have crucified them all? Remember Thomas once
said, “Let us go and die with Him”, and they all went. Yes I do
wonder what could have been done to prevent the suffering of our
Lord. How can it all come down to just the creation of Adam in
the first place?(that God already knew he would disobey?)
Isn’t there something people could have chosen to do differently?
Thanks for the question NotWorthy…