Did Jesus Have To Die?

[eazyduzit]

I don’t think it’s just that we have to suffer and die for what Adam and Eve did. Mexico had recaptured “El Chapo,” but all the Mexican people have not been put in jail for the crimes of one. To me, that would be unjust.

Neither did God. That’s why he sent His only Son to pay our price so that He could restore us to Adam’s original position.

 

[eazyduzit]

If original sin brought suffering and death into the world, and Christ paid our debt, a theory to which I do not subscribe, then why do we still suffer and die?

If someone commits a crime and is sentenced to two years in prison, if he serves his two years, he’s set free, he’s no longer confined.

I know what you mean by it not being punishment in the strict sense of the word, though, and I agree with you, it’s not strictly punishment.

The answer is - Its Not Over Yet! Salvation is in progressive steps. Our spirit has been redeemed and we are a new creation in spirit. Our soul is being saved, but we are yet awaiting for the salvation of the body. We will receive a new and glorious body in the same way that Jesus did when He arose. It is promised in Rm.6 as a baptismal covenant. Heb. 9:28 refers to a salvation that Jesus will bring at the second coming. “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Luke 21: 28 also refers to it, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up,… for your redemption draweth nigh. However, we don’t even need to wait until then to enjoy good health for it has already been won for us by Christ through His suffering. (2Pt.2:24) We can have it now by faith.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The answer is - Its Not Over Yet! Salvation is in progressive steps. Our spirit has been redeemed and we are a new creation in spirit. Our soul is being saved, but we are yet awaiting for the salvation of the body. We will receive a new and glorious body in the same way that Jesus did when He arose. It is promised in Rm.6 as a baptismal covenant. Heb. 9:28 refers to a as salvation that Jesus will bring at the second coming. “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall His appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Luke 21: 28 also refers to it, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up,… for your redemption draweth nigh. However, we don’t even need to wait until then to enjoy good health for it has already been won for us by Christ through His suffering. (2Pt.2:24) We can have it now by faith.

Thank you! I love your cheerfulness! It’s contagious.

 

[eazyduzit]

Neither did God. That’s why he sent His only Son to pay our price so that He could restore us to Adam’s original position.

Rethinking that, in some ways He did much better, because we now have a better covenant than Adam and a better inheritance as well as better righteousness.

 

[Simca]

If original sin brought suffering and death into the world, and Christ paid our debt, a theory to which I do not subscribe, then why do we still suffer and die?.

I think that until sin is totally done away with, suffering and death will always be a part of our life here on earth. And sin will not be done away with until Jesus comes again, judges the world, and everyone goes to their final reward.

Before man sinned, God ordained for us to live forever on this earth. But after man sinned, eternal life was taken away, because if each person still lived forever, sin would always be present and we would live forever with sin as a part of our lives. As Genesis says, “And the LORD God said, ‘Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.’”

This is why, even though Christ paid the price, we still die: because sin is still present on this earth, and we all still succumb. The weeds, the thorns, and the good seed must all live together until Christ comes and a separation is made. Then, sin will be done away with and death and suffering will be no more.

And we still suffer because Christ suffered. And we share in his sufferings because we are his servants. Suffering helps to perfect us. This is the reason St. Paul saw for his own sufferings: “Now I am rejoicing while suffering for you as I complete in my flesh whatever remains of the Messiah’s sufferings on behalf of his body, which is the church.” (Colossians 1:24)

I can understand how all the theories make sense. Perhaps they are all right in their own way. There were many aspects to Christ’s death, not just one. He is the fulfillment of all of the Old Testament offerings: and there was more than one. Each had a purpose, but Christ has accomplished it all.

 

[adrift]

Over the last few days I thought about this question did Jesus have to die.

Could God have accomplished a reconciliation with man another way? I think the answer to that is God could do anything. I believe that this is the wrong question to ask. Perhaps the question that should be asked is why was death chosen?
As I wrote that something that popped into my head was the fact that disobeying God brought death into the world. Not physical death but spiritual death. Death existed even before Adam and Eve. It does seem appropriate than that Jesus die. But why? I think the scripture answers that

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[thinkandmull]

Was Jesus’s death meritorious as because he was God or simply because he was a sinless human? There are Bible verses on this I think, but it’s too late in the night for me to recall

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I’ve heard that Jesus had to die, that there was no other possible way for people’s sins to be forgiven. They needed a sacrificial lamb to take their place, so Jesus ended up being crucified. But why did He have to do this? God made the world, He can basically do what He wants

Nope. He just chose to.

 

[adrift]

Was Jesus’s death meritorious as because he was God or simply because he was a sinless human? There are Bible verses on this I think, but it’s too late in the night for me to recall

Both

 

[thinkandmull]

The Old Catholic Encyclopedia has this very strange paragraph about Blessed Scotus’s beliefs on this question: The merits of Christ are infinite only in a broader sense, but of themselves they are entirely sufficient to give adequate satisfaction to the Divine justice; there is no deficiency to be supplied by God’s mercy. But there is needed a merciful acceptation of the work of Christ, since in the sight of God there is no real merit in the strictest sense of the word.

 

[adrift]

The Old Catholic Encyclopedia has this very strange paragraph about Blessed Scotus’s beliefs on this question: The merits of Christ are infinite only in a broader sense, but of themselves they are entirely sufficient to give adequate satisfaction to the Divine justice; there is no deficiency to be supplied by God’s mercy. But there is needed a merciful acceptation of the work of Christ, since in the sight of God there is no real merit in the strictest sense of the word.

:hypno:

 

[tonyrey]

The Old Catholic Encyclopedia has this very strange paragraph about Blessed Scotus’s beliefs on this question: The merits of Christ are infinite only in a broader sense, but of themselves they are entirely sufficient to give adequate satisfaction to the Divine justice; there is no deficiency to be supplied by God’s mercy. But there is needed a merciful acceptation of the work of Christ, since in the sight of God there is no real merit in the strictest sense of the word.

don’t believe it is strange at all. In his humanity Jesus was finite but morally perfect. He pointed out more than once that only the Father knows everything. He did everything He could to liberate us from evil but if we reject His love why should He be held responsible? He respects our freedom because without freedom we would be incapable of love.

He was a man like us in all respects but sin…

 

[Lily_Bernans]

don’t believe it is strange at all. In his humanity Jesus was finite but morally perfect. He pointed out more than once that only the Father knows everything. He did everything He could to liberate us from evil but if we reject His love why should He be held responsible? He respects our freedom because without freedom we would be incapable of love.

He was a man like us in all respects but sin…

And his divinity. We are not, in any way, divine.

 

[jaimeleglise]

The symbolon website answers that question.

 

[o_mlly]

I’ve heard that Jesus had to die, that there was no other possible way for people’s sins to be forgiven. They needed a sacrificial lamb to take their place, so Jesus ended up being crucified. But why did He have to do this? God made the world, He can basically do what He wants

No, Jesus did not have to die. Unlike Adam, He did obey and speak the truth. Answering truthfully the question: Are you the Son of God? He did not deny His Father which provoked evil men to put him to the cross.

 

[tonyrey]

In his humanity Jesus was finite but morally perfect. He pointed out more than once that only the Father knows everything. He did everything He could to liberate us from evil but if we reject His love why should He be held responsible? He respects our freedom because without freedom we would be incapable of love.He was a man like us in all respects but sin…

That is true but being divine doesn’t prevent Jesus from being fully human.

 

[tonyrey]

Was Jesus’s death meritorious as because he was God or simply because he was a sinless human? There are Bible verses on this I think, but it’s too late in the night for me to recall

The Son of God need not have chosen to become a man but He did so because it is the most effective way of freeing us from evil without infringing our freedom! It is yet another example of divine love, wisdom and originality.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

That is true but being divine doesn’t prevent Jesus from being fully human.

No, he was fully human, of course, but we can’t forget the hypostatic union. Jesus was a unique human being.

 

[tonyrey]

That is true but being divine doesn’t prevent Jesus from being fully human.

I think it is impossible for us to know the extent of His knowledge and power while He was on earth. He certainly wasn’t omniscient and omnipotent! Otherwise He wouldn’t have been like us in all things but sin. He seemed to have moments of doubt at Gethsemane and on the Cross - which is understandable in view of the horrific nature of the suffering He was to endure. His love for us is even greater if that is the case. Our human predicament is necessarily one of uncertainty when we are confronted with our final enemy in this world. That is why Jesus wanted to share it with us and be our companion right to our very last breath. Camus regarded death as “the supreme abuse” but that was because he regarded it as the culmination of absurdity whereas Jesus trusted in the Father to deliver us from evil, give us eternal life in heaven and help us follow Him at every stage of our journey. Perfection in every detail!

What more could He have done for us? That is the answer to the OP…

 

[adrift]

I think it is impossible for us to know the extent of His knowledge and power while He was on earth. He certainly wasn’t omniscient and omnipotent! Otherwise He wouldn’t have been like us in all things but sin. He seemed to have moments of doubt at Gethsemane and on the Cross - which is understandable in view of the horrific nature of the suffering He was to endure. His love for us is even greater if that is the case. Our human predicament is necessarily one of uncertainty when we are confronted with our final enemy in this world. That is why Jesus wanted to share it with us and be our companion right to our very last breath. Camus regarded death as “the supreme abuse” but that was because he regarded it as the culmination of absurdity whereas Jesus trusted in the Father to deliver us from evil, give us eternal life in heaven and help us follow Him at every stage of our journey. Perfection in every detail!

What more could He have done for us? That is the answer to the OP…

Jesus knowledge is off topic so I will limit my comment to the quoting of the Catechism.

Christ’s soul and his human knowledge

471 Apollinarius of Laodicaea asserted that in Christ the divine Word had replaced the soul or spirit. Against this error the Church confessed that the eternal Son also assumed a rational, human soul.100

472 This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”,101 and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience.102 This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.103

473 But at the same time, this truly human knowledge of God’s Son expressed the divine life of his person.104 "The human nature of God’s Son, not by itself but by its union with the Word, knew and showed forth in itself everything that pertains to God."105 Such is first of all the case with the intimate and immediate knowledge that the Son of God made man has of his Father.106 The Son in his human knowledge also showed the divine penetration he had into the secret thoughts of human hearts.107

474 By its union to the divine wisdom in the person of the Word incarnate, Christ enjoyed in his human knowledge the fullness of understanding of the eternal plans he had come to reveal.108 What he admitted to not knowing in this area, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.109