Did Jesus in the Bible say that He was not God?

[Kouyate42]

I’ve been in discussion with Muslims in more recent times, mostly concerning Jesus. Now one of the arguments that keeps cropping up and which I’m struggling to answer is the claim that Jesus Himself in the BIBLE states that he is not God and that He should not be worshipped as God.

Here are a selection of the quotes I was given from the Bible:

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 4:8[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:16-17[/BIBLEDRB]

A final one which seems to state that whilst being great, none of the disciples believed Him to be God.
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 16:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]

So, how do I reconcile these passages with the rest of Scripture?

 

[DJK100]

Where in any of these passages does Jesus say he is not God? Read the quotes again and tell where he is saying that? Don’t let them corrupt scripture without looking at the whole of it.

Also, to settle the matter read John 1:1 to them. IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Then John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

All from DR bible. Pretty clear if you ask me.

Read these and print them for your friends. These should help get you started.

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811btb.asp
catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Christ.asp
catholic.com/library/Eternal_Sonship_of_Christ.asp
catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp

By the way you can ask them why do they believe the Koran is correct when it explicitly teaches error. For instance if you look at Sura 5:116-117 they teach that Christians believe Mary is God and worship her as such. We know this is blatantly untrue so how can they believe in a book that can be shown without doubt to be teaching something that is verifibly untrue?

I would suggest you look into getting the Booklet Beginning Apologetics 9 “How to Answer Muslims” to help you. It only cost like $6.00

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I’ve been in discussion with Muslims in more recent times, mostly concerning Jesus. Now one of the arguments that keeps cropping up and which I’m struggling to answer is the claim that Jesus Himself in the BIBLE states that he is not God and that He should not be worshipped as God.

Jesus was also humble. This is what your Muslim counterparts are forgetting. Whilst Jesus does not explicitly deny that he is the Son of God in the Bible, he does not overtly draw attention to himself. For Scripture itself remarks: “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:5-8). It was necessary for Jesus to be humble himself otherwise he would have been a hypocrite, as he advises his disciples that “For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted” (Matthew 23:12).

There was also a practical aspect to Jesus being humble. Had Jesus ‘bragged’ about being God, chances are he would have been killed before the “fullness of time” (cf. Galatians 4:4) and to affirm the prophecies made by many the Old Testament prophets such as Isaiah.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

By the way you can ask them why do they believe the Koran is correct when it explicitly teaches error. For instance if you look at Sura 5:116-117 they teach that Christians believe Mary is God and worship her as such. We know this is blatantly untrue so how can they believe in a book that can be shown without doubt to be teaching something that is verifibly untrue?

Hello,

The Quran mentions that Christians worship Mary because during Muhammad’s time, there was a heretical Christian group called Collyridianism (Mary-worshipers). Some historians believe the Quran was specifically referring to this heresy rather than Christianity as we know it today.

 

[SonCatcher]

Jesus, in humility, emphasized his humanity:
Philippians 2:6-11
Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.

However, the apostles DID figure it out. Partially during Jesus’ ministry and more fully after his resurrection:
Matthew 16:15-17
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
“Son of God” is a roundabout way of acknowledging Christ’s divinity.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Thomas’ statement is a much more direct acknowledgement than Peter’s earlier one.

There are also passages that show Jesus received worship while others clearly show Peter and others (even angels) rejecting worship which is given to God alone.

 

[DJK100]

Hello,

The Quran mentions that Christians worship Mary because during Muhammad’s time, there was a heretical Christian group called Collyridianism (Mary-worshipers). Some historians believe the Quran was specifically referring to this heresy rather than Christianity as we know it today.

True some say that others say he was influneced by his Nestorian relatives. However, the fact remains that Collyridianism had been condemned some 200 years before the Koran and if Muhammand had divine help in writing the Koran this would still be seen as an error and at best a misreprestentation of the faith.

 

[TimothyH]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … And the Word became flesh (John 1:14)*

 

[DJK100]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 16:13-14[/BIBLEDRB]

A final one which seems to state that whilst being great, none of the disciples believed Him to be God

Let’s finish the passage for this one shall we…

And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is?
14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
**17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. **

Whoops! Seems your friends left out some of the important parts. Like I said before read everything and put it into context.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Jesus said he was God in the Bible.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Those verses mean something else.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Jesus said he was God in the Bible.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

Those verses mean something else.

Particularly as the words I AM = Yahweh

 

[TimothyH]

My opinion is that one of Jesus’ strongest statments that he was God is in Matthew 12.

At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat them When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath.” He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry, how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat? Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent? I say to you, something greater than the temple is here. If you knew what this meant, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned these innocent men. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.” (Mathew 12:1-8)

In the Jewish religion, the temple was it. The temple was half way between heaven and earth, the center of the universe. The temple was what capped off the long shaft which led down the Sheol, the dark abode of the dead, and therefor prevented darkness, death and chaos from entering the world. God himself lived in the temple, in the “Holy of Holies.” Men were only allowed to enter the Holy of Holies once each year and they tied a rope around that guy’s leg so they could drag his body out in case God struck him dead. The temple was the “Seat of the Shekinah”, the only place in all of creation where God was present and so it was the only place where God could be offered worship. There was nothing greater than the temple, the dwelling place of God, except God himself.

And obedience to the mosaic law was what the Jews believed would bring the messiah. If everyone was perfectly holy according to the mosaic law, the messiah would come. But those who disobeyed the mosaic law were actually preventing the messiah from coming.

Jesus was saying in effect, that if the priests in the temple were freed from observance of the sabbath laws becuase of their relationship to the temple, how much more so should his followers be freed from those same laws because of their relationship to something (Jesus) which is greater than the temple.

Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. … therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it. (Exodus 20:8,11)

Not only did Jesus state that he was greater than the temple, and that his followers were free from the observance of sabbath laws because of their relationship to him, he stated that he was above the sabbath, which had been consecrated to God, by God, as one of the ten commandments. Jesus even went so far as to claim that he was “Lord of the Sabbath”. Remember that God himself commanded that the sabbath be kept. Only God could rescind that law.

Jesus’ claim to be “Lord of the Sabbath” would have been a crystal clear statement to those devout Jews who heard it. All through the Gospels, Jesus is saying, “I am God… I am God… I am God.” He doesn’t say those three words because they would have executed him for blasphemy, but he says it in veiled ways, over and over and over. We just have to look for it with first century Jewish eyes.

-Tim-

 

[midori]

Wasn’t going to post, but was at church this evening, and the gospel was from John 3… and it made me think of this thread. So here y’go…

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever [d]believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God.

Interestingly enough, I read somewhere that Jesus referred to himself as the “Son of Man” over 70 times throughout the gospels. And of course, that is a reference to Daniel 7:

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [k]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [l]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

So while “Son of Man” isn’t really that impressive a title when viewed in a vacuum, you have to also look at what else he’s claiming: descent from Heaven; that if you believe in him, you have eternal life; that while he’s perfectly entitled to judge the world, he’s here to save it; that not believing in him leads to judgement; that he’s to be given dominion over the entire world; that his dominion stretches into infinity and is imperishable; that all humanity is to serve him. And that’s just from two snippets. Making all those claims with a straight face and expecting to be taken seriously is pretty much tantamount to claiming divinity.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Ave Maria Kouyate, I’ll try and help with each verse as best as I can. I will be using the RSV-CE translation.

“Luke 4:8”

Here, Jesus was quoting Duet 6:13 to rebuke Satan’s wish for Jesus to worship him. I do not see how this affects Christ’s position as God, but if we look a few verses into this chapter we see Christ making a interesting declaration:

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answered him, “It is said, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’”

Ask yourself and your debating partner, who was being tempted? Christ was stating do not tempt the Lord your God yet it was Christ who was being tempted. Interesting…

“Matthew 19:16-17”

Ah, these verses are actually very common, and very commonly misread. And if we look into these verses more closely, it actually has the opposite effect of what your debater is stating. Observe:

Matt 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?”

Jesus tells him that there is only One who is good, and that being God. He recites the commandments and the rich man states he has not broken any of them with his testimony and yet Christ did not correct him in that statement. If Christ was saying that only God, The Father, is good, wouldn’t he have taught the young man that he did indeed break a commandment? But Christ did not correct him, he asked why do you call me good when it is only God that is good? People take this as a refute but on the contrary, this is a proclamation of an observation that Christ made of what the man said, this is an indirect proclamation of His Divinity. The man called Jesus good, Jesus replies saying only God is good, the man states he did not break the commandments, and Jesus does not correct him. Interesting…

“Matthew 16:13-14”

DJK100 did exactly what I would’ve done, continue the chapter. St. Peter is blessed for proclaiming Jesus as the Christ, Messiah, the only begotten Son of God.

What your friend is doing is a very knowable tactic, he’s lifting verses out of context and thus creating a proof text. We must employ all of the verses surrounding the verse in question, then employ the entire chapter, then the entire book, then the entirety of Sacred Scripture.

Pax Domini

 

[Petergee]

What your friend is doing is a very knowable tactic, he’s lifting verses out of context and thus creating a proof text. We must employ all of the verses surrounding the verse in question, then employ the entire chapter, then the entire book, then the entirety of Sacred Scripture.

Pax Domini

And it is even more ludicrous for a Moslem to employ this dishonest tactic. Because Moslems believe, as Mahomet mistakenly thought and taught in his sayings which later became the Koran that “the gospel” was just one book(!) and that it was personally written by Jesus(!) during His time on earth, but that Christians later “corrupted” it. And that anything that Mahomet and the Koran disagree with in the “gospel” is a “corruption”.

 

[Kouyate42]

And it is even more ludicrous for a Moslem to employ this dishonest tactic. Because Moslems believe, as Mahomet mistakenly thought and taught in his sayings which later became the Koran that “the gospel” was just one book(!) and that it was personally written by Jesus(!) during His time on earth, but that Christians later “corrupted” it. And that anything that Mahomet and the Koran disagree with in the “gospel” is a “corruption”.

In my translation of the Qur’an (Yusuf Ali translation) and in my Arabic dictionary, the word Injil is translated as ‘Gospels’, referring to the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Also, from Wikipedia:
Wikipedia:

Muslims reject that Jesus or any other person wrote the Injil, instead crediting its authorship to God. Many Muslim scholars believe that the Gospel has undergone alteration, that the words and the meaning of the words have been distorted, with some passages suppressed and others added.

In short, your claim that Islam teaches the writing of the Injil by Jesus is faulty.

And it could be argued that the Gospels ARE infact one book, as four different accounts of the same events which are taken as one whole to give a coherent account of all Jesus’ doings and sayings.
Otherwise it’s like saying that four witnesses to an event witnessed four different events. They saw one event, and facts can be derived from all four accounts of the event

 

[Petergee]

In my translation of the Qur’an (Yusuf Ali translation) and in my Arabic dictionary, the word Injil is translated as ‘Gospels’, referring to the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Obviously that is a translation geared to Christian audiences.

Also, from Wikipedia:

In short, your claim that Islam teaches the writing of the Injil by Jesus is faulty.

From the very Moslem-sympathetic J P Kenny, “Christ Outside Christianity”, (far more authoritative than Wikipedia)

His [Mahomet’s] presentation [in the Koran] of New Testament material is garbled. He treats the Gospel (singular) as a book revealed personally to Jesus.

And it could be argued that the Gospels ARE infact one book, as four different accounts of the same events which are taken as one whole to give a coherent account of all Jesus’ doings and sayings.
Otherwise it’s like saying that four witnesses to an event witnessed four different events. They saw one event, and facts can be derived from all four accounts of the event

Yes that could be argued, but Mahomet was not making that argument. He was clearly confused by the way Christians used expressions such as “spreading the gospel” where “gospel” simply means the good news that God has become Man in order to take man to God. Unfortunately Mahomet obviously did not have access to any of the Gospels. He ignores Christ’s chief utterances and records others inaccurately. He seems to have had access to some material from the Old Testament and to have had contact with Jews, but his contact with Christians seems to have been confined to heretics (Gnostics, Docetists, Collyridians) or the poorly catechised. As Kenny also notes,

It is interesting to speculate what sort of man Mahomet might have been and how differently history would have run its course had Christianity ever been adequately presented to such a religious genius.

(author’s emphasis)

 

[BrunoMaria]

Not only that Jesus was God, but Jesus still is God and will be in all eternity and had been God before all times.
All who doubt this, are not on God’s way, the way and the truth and the life, which is Jesus Christ. As far of God as can be. They even tempt God, for doubting Jesus, is saying Jesus is a liar. Jesus said in Matt 28.18: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
Would Jesus say “…of the Son…” if He was not God in God - which He said so often?!

The whole Bible points on Jesus Christ as God in God as we confess in the Creede: … one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father…

He who tells different, is very far off Christianity, and as the First Council of Nicea 325 puts it:
“But those who say: ‘There was a time when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.”

Now, it’s certainly clear that all non-Christian religions try to justify themselves by “proving” Jesus is not God. This they do even by reference to the Bible. Simply ridiculous, and it’s easy to refute such rubbish by the same Bible.
But then remember; - even Satan knows how to do so, for he tempted Jesus by citing Bible-Verses.

Yours
Bruno

 

[tqualey]

Hi, DJK100,

A most excellent post.

The Koran has multiple errors - and denying the Divinity of Christ, yet calling Him a ‘prophet’ (just one of many) is another such error (sorry, I am unable to give the citation for this statement).

It isn’t so much that discussing Christianity with non-Christians is the major problem, but, when there is a built-in hostility towards Christianity (dating back to the beginnings of Islam’s conquest of north Africa) it becomes a major challenge.

Christ was challenged by the Jews - to the point of them wanting to stone Him - for calling Himself God. Take a look at John 10:33-38 and see How the Son of God responds to their challenge:

33The Jews answered him, “We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God.”t 34 Jesus answered them,u “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35If it calls them gods to whom the word of God came, and scripture cannot be set aside, 36can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?v 37If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me; 38but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize [and understand] that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”/**B]

There can be no doubt that the Jewish Leaders understood Christ and that they rejected Him.

God bless

Where in any of these passages does Jesus say he is not God? Read the quotes again and tell where he is saying that? Don’t let them corrupt scripture without looking at the whole of it.

Also, to settle the matter read John 1:1 to them. IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Then John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

All from DR bible. Pretty clear if you ask me.

Read these and print them for your friends. These should help get you started.

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811btb.asp

catholic.com/library/Divinity_of_Christ.asp
catholic.com/library/Eternal_Sonship_of_Christ.asp
catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp

By the way you can ask them why do they believe the Koran is correct when it explicitly teaches error. For instance if you look at Sura 5:116-117 they teach that Christians believe Mary is God and worship her as such. We know this is blatantly untrue so how can they believe in a book that can be shown without doubt to be teaching something that is verifibly untrue?

I would suggest you look into getting the Booklet Beginning Apologetics 9 “How to Answer Muslims” to help you. It only cost like $6.00

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bohm Bawerk,

Just a technical note on the “…fullness of time…” concept. You seem to imply that if Jesus was not careful, He would have been killed before His Time. This means He really wasn’t in charge - that He really wasn’t God!

If John 10 (the verse I just quoted) Jesus is about to be stoned for calling Himself God - the Jewish Leaders understood what Christ was saying and had rejected Christ as God and were about to kill Him right there - as they had done to God’s prophets. (Matt 23:37, Luke 13:34, Acts 7:52).

Christ was able to move freely around those who would have killed Him on the spot because His Hour had not yet come. And, when His Hour comes - He goes directly to Jerusalem to fulfill His Father’s Will.

God bless

Jesus was also humble. This is what your Muslim counterparts are forgetting. Whilst Jesus does not explicitly deny that he is the Son of God in the Bible, he does not overtly draw attention to himself. For Scripture itself remarks: “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:5-8). It was necessary for Jesus to be humble himself otherwise he would have been a hypocrite, as he advises his disciples that “For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted” (Matthew 23:12).

There was also a practical aspect to Jesus being humble. Had Jesus ‘bragged’ about being God, chances are he would have been killed before the “fullness of time” (cf. Galatians 4:4) and to affirm the prophecies made by many the Old Testament prophets such as Isaiah.

 

[Hakathriel]

Catholic Christology is extremely subtle, and the classical, sophisticated and un-exoteric position is one of “relative subordinationism” or “relational subordinationism”…NOT “*essentialist * subordinationism”…

An intricate, non-linear and qualified Christological subordinationism is denied at the cost of distorting Sacred Scripture and the essence of Christianity itself…

The “relative- or relational-subordinationist” stance highlighting the Father as the “fountainhead” of the Trinity is theologically inescapable, according to the words of Jesus Christ Himself:

“My Father is greater than I” (Jn 14:28)

“Why callest thou Me good? There is none good save one, that is God” (Mt 19:17)

Who is Jesus Christ the Son frequently praying to in the Bible if there is no hierarchicalism within the Godhead Itself?

On one side, we fall into the trap of Arianism; on the other, Nestorianism… The golden mean is relational subordinationism…

God the Father is the First Person of the Godhead, “God the Father almighty” of the Nicene Creed; to phrase the onto-theological “economy” a certain way, God the Father is the metaphysically axial, super-ontological, hyper-essential Absolute-Absolute, while the Son and the Holy Spirit are connate yet Relative-Absolutes.

If Catholicism does not set forth a relational/relative subordinationism, then the theologically anomalous and anti-monotheistic absurdities of Christolatry, Anthropomorphism, and other erroneous conceptions are given illicit liberty… A false, oversimplifying Christology of Anthropomorphite-type idolatry the Muslims are right to criticize in the confused Christians or Catholics so mentally deficient to become entangled in such heterodox, barbarous views inimical to Monotheism…

Saint Irenaeus calls the Son and the Holy Spirit the two “hands” of the Father (Against the Heresies, 4.20.1)…

Orthodox-Catholic Christology states the Father is the Cause or aitia of the Son and the Spirit, by either filiation or spiration…

Saint Gregory explains the First Person of the Father is the transcendent and inaccessible Unicity “from whom and to whom the order of the Persons runs its course” (Theological Orations, XLII.15)…

Unfortunately, modern Christians and Catholics, in their zeal to affirm the truly-existent Divinity of Christ in His Sonship, have oversimplified the “divine economy” and failed to affirm the supreme, pure Ipseity of God the Father as Being-beyond-Being…the God whom “no man hath seen at any time” (Jn 1:18)…