Did Jesus misunderstand illness?

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But isnt “casting out devils” a 1st century misconception?

We now know people suffer diseases due to the infection of viruses, and that mentally illness is a treatable disorder, and not due to devils.
My first reply contained the answer to all your questions on this.
Reflect upon what I said. Review it. Doctors are only treating
diseases within the bounds of the fallen state. Jesus treated them
without regard to the fallen state. Evil is why there is a fallen state.
hope this helps.
 
So Jesus / God sends devils from one human being into a herd of pigs and drowns them. Does this make any sense to you?
That new human beings, and placental mammals, generally, come into the world through the birth canal of a previously existing female individual doesn’t make much “sense” to me either. Come to think about it, having five fingers or toes on the end of each of these tentacles attached to my torso is kind of random, as well. It seems that all the “raw” facts of the natural world have this strangely nonsensical reality about them. Things like trees and stars, spiders and volcanoes, snow and coral, are all just plain strange and don’t make much sense when you think about it.

In order to conclude that Jesus misunderstood illness, we would have to understand the fundamental underpinnings of reality. What is it that essentially undergirds the material structure of the universe and makes it take the form that it does? Why has physical reality taken the variety of forms that it has since the Big Bang, given that the fundamental laws and constants that govern the ways in which matter is “informed” did not exist before the primal event. There is no “logical” reason to explain why things are the way they are. Most seem “natural” to us merely because we are accustomed to them, but that merely immunizes us against the truly mysterious “logic” behind the way things are.

My own suspicion is that the “subjective” realities around us are much more profoundly involved in the natural order than we realize. St. Paul speaks of principalities and powers affecting human history. It is difficult to dismiss his ideas about this given his own profound effects on the course of human history. He must have known something.

If Jesus was God incarnate, obviously he would have knowledge about the way things are that is not available to us. Any presumption we would apply to put a disclaimer on his actions would necessarily be based on the assumption that he, because of this act, could, therefore, not be God, would be begging the question of his divinity because we do not clearly understand the nature of the reality behind the apparently natural order.

In other words, we could not claim that God would not drive out demons in this manner without assuming that our current level of knowledge is sufficient to dismiss any and all “supernatural” possibilities behind his actions. If we presume Jesus was merely human, then his actions might be dismissed as stemming from the knowledge limitations of his time. However, if Jesus was God, then his actions can only leave us wondering if our apparent “knowledge” is really as secure and well-founded as we suppose. It need not be a matter of “knowledge” shaking faith, but of faith shaking presumption.
 
Why mention viruses? “You are healed.” What more does Christ need to say?
He could have given a sign as to whether an illness is caused by possession or regular everyday Fall-manifested germs/viruses. Since there seems to be a distinction between the two, knowing whether to call an exorcist or a doctor would be helpful.
Of course not. All illnesses are the result of Sin. Medical or psychological ways of treating conditions today only treat the conditions according to the current natural laws, which means under the presence of Death and Sin which is the state of all the Earth today. Thus, a psychologist may treat a mental illness, or a doctor may treat a disease, within the limits of natural law, but Jesus was above natural law. Being that Sin is the root cause of all corruption and death, Jesus cast out the devils which were causing pain and suffering. See, the root cause of all pain and suffering is Original Sin.
I’ve heard a similar line of reasoning before, except illness is described as a result of bad karma. Neither that explanation nor the one above to me seems sufficient to describe why some young children get lukemia and some unborn children have spina bifida.
 
Instead of faith healing stories, why did the inspired authors not provide something useful like cures for life threatening illness, some medical advice. 🤷
The bible is NOT a medical Textbook. I think you misunderstand the healing powers of God and exorcism/
 
Remember, Jesus had to talk to people in the language and concepts that they understood.

I somehow doubt that if Jesus had said the word “virus” (or even tried to describe a virus) to anyone 2000 years ago they would have had the first clue what he was talking about. To them he’d have been making up gibberish.
 
The demons begged to be allowed to enter the pigs. Christ (for whatever reason) granted their request. The demons entered the pigs, then the pigs stampeded and were drowned.

I don’t know why Christ would grant a request made by demons; but it wasn’t Christ who drowned the pigs.
Scripture was written for the sake of salvation.

Scripture was not written for the sake of historical accuracy, scientific accuracy, as a medical journal or as a commentary on the state of healthcare in first century Judea. The story of Jesus casting out the demons into pigs was written for one reason, given to us by God for one reason alone - for the salvation of our souls. That is the only reason why scripture exists, for the salvation of our souls.

We have to read Scripture like a Jew.

Pigs were unclean food according to the Jewish law of Moses. Also, Jesus was not within the borders of Judea when this incident took place but was in the pagan “Country of the Gadarenes” which was grecco-roman at the time. The name of the man who is posessed is also not given. When someone’s name is not given, it is often because they are representative of a nation or group of people. That’s how Jews wrote. They couldn’t just run down to the office supply store and get more paper. They wrote in ways that draw thier audience into the story. They wrote in ways which communicate lots of information with very few words under the assumption that the audience understood the details and background. The audience was Jewish.

The pagan grecco-roman “Man who is possessed” in the “Country of the Gadarenes” is the same style of writing as the “Woman at the well” in John 4. She represents the apostate nation of Samaria. First century Jews who read the accounts would have recognized the locations and would have understood the man posessed as representing the Gentiles and the woman at the well as representing Samaria. They would have recognized this because they had intimate and first hand knowledge of Jewish history, geography, culture, religion and politics.

The story of the pigs is a story about the Gentiles being brought into God’s family where previously only Jews had been allowed.

Jesus commands the demonic spirits which were the result of pagan worship to enter the unclean food which the pagan gentiles ate, and then both the food and the demons are destroyed.

The demons which resulted from the worship of false gods are gone. The unclean food which the Gentiles ate and the other practices which violate the laws of moses which the pigs represent are gone. The unnamed pagan grecco-roman man is free of the demon. The pagan people whom the unnamed man represents are cleansed, and brought into the the covenant family of God.

Earlier in Matthew 8, Jesus cures the Centurion’s servant. The centurion was a Roman. Again, it is a story of the whole world being brought into God’s covenant family through the work of Jesus Christ.

***Now there were some Greeks *among those who had come up to worship at the feast. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, “Sir, we would like to see Jesus.” Philip went and told Andrew; then Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. (John 12:20-23)

The unnamed Greeks “Wish to see Jesus”. Here John is telling us that the gentiles are beginning to accept Christ. Jesus’s response isn’t, “Tell them to come back later” or “What do they want?” Jesus’ response to the news that the Gentiles are seeking salvation through him is the recognition that his work on earth is nearing an end. He has been successfull. The seed has been planted and the Gentiles are beginning to seek him. His work is nearing completion.

Again, scripture isn’t a commentary on the first century Jewish understanding of medical science. Scripture was written for the sake of our salvation and no other reason, and looking at Scripture through the eyes of a first century Jew helps us understand it much better.

-Tim-
 
As with your other thread, I think there are some basic misconceptions here.

That Jesus attributed the illness of some people to the influence of demons does not in any way indicate that all mental illness is of demonic origin and requires exorcism.

Similarly, just because some (or even most) mental illness has readily explainable, natural origins, that does not exclude the possbility that some such illnesses are of demonic origin.

I don’t see what the issue is. 🤷
 
i started writing a long response that no one would read

to the OP: take a look at “The Meaning of Health” by Paul Tillich; he is an existentialist Christian philosopher and theologian; it would not necessarily be a Catholic view, but you might find it enlightening and it definitely speaks to the questions you are asking.
 
Pigs are intelligent animals. I think its a shame they had to sacrifice themselves.
The goal of a demon when it is able to posess is to destroy the being which it possesses and ultimately all of God’s good works. As the pigs had no spiritual soul they had little resistance to the self- destructive prompting of the demons. The person would have required much more effort as they not only have a spiritual soul but the mercy of God working in them.
 
I would say that as there are some illnesses of purely psychological origin, there may be illnesses of “spiritual origin”. There is actually something called “spiritual health”, it is especially about you relationship to God, the invisible world etc.

Same as if your physical health is broken, your psychological health may be damaged; if your spiritual health is broken, your physical health can be damaged. These three aspects of a human being may interact with each other, I think. So there may be physical illnesses of spiritual origin, which mostly means that you are under attack from evil spirits. And I am not using some medieval supersticious terminology here. We are probably living in the centry with the highest number of real demonic possessions, especially thanks to New Age, reiki and all kinds of gates that lead to “false Christs”.

Since I know a franciscan priest that served until the last december as an exorcist for our archdiocese, I can tell you from a very reliable source that evil spirits are not just real, but also dangerous. I hate to demonize everything that comes into our way, but we need to be ready and rationally count with this option when there is no natural explanation.

Well, after all, we believe in both the visible AND the invisible world.
 
He could have given a sign as to whether an illness is caused by possession or regular everyday Fall-manifested germs/viruses. Since there seems to be a distinction between the two, knowing whether to call an exorcist or a doctor would be helpful.
You may wish to listen to this CA Live radio broadcast on exorcism which might be helpful.

catholic.com/sites/default/files/audio/radioshows/ca120127a.mp3
I’ve heard a similar line of reasoning before, except illness is described as a result of bad karma. Neither that explanation nor the one above to me seems sufficient to describe why some young children get lukemia and some unborn children have spina bifida.
Not every illness or condition is “spiritual” or psychological in nature, a large number have genetic or physical manifestation, but still could have originated as a result of bad or sinful choices made somewhere in the past.

There is a difference between direct effect and attendant repercussions. A chemist in a lab might make “sinful” or questionable decisions that may have far-reaching but unintended genetic or physiological consequences on large numbers of people at a much later time. Thalidomide is a case in point, but there could well be a litany of other choices made by individuals, groups or corporations in the past that have had a host of negative natural effects such as birth defects. Evil effects are not restricted to those directly caused by sin, but may show up in seemingly unrelated events. All our choices have repercussions. That is the lot we have to live with as human beings. The better that we understand the nature of good and evil the better equipped we are to make choices which will have positive effects, presuming that a good will accompanies that understanding. At the same time, a candid and humble acknowledgement concerning what we don’t understand is likewise essential.
 
As I understand it, Jesus seemed to believe that people suffered illness (mental and physical) because they were possessed by devils or demons.
I can’t imagine why you would think you understand that. Isn’t this the only case of demonic possession in the NT? Jesus didn’t say anything about the blind, withered, leprous or sick He cured to make me think He thought they all had demons. I just cannot imagine why you would think He did.
 
The goal of a demon when it is able to posess is to destroy the being which it possesses and ultimately all of God’s good works. As the pigs had no spiritual soul they had little resistance to the self- destructive prompting of the demons. The person would have required much more effort as they not only have a spiritual soul but the mercy of God working in them.
Do you have any evidence that a) demons exist, b) pigs have no soul. Thanks
 
…Again, scripture isn’t a commentary on the first century Jewish understanding of medical science. Scripture was written for the sake of our salvation and no other reason, and looking at Scripture through the eyes of a first century Jew helps us understand it much better.
Hmm. I do have to question why the new testament is written as you would expect from uneducated fishermen from the first century.

If God had actually inspired the writing of the Bible why are they not able to explain the diagnosis and treatment of disease and mental illness in a modern way.

The methods used by Jesus do look on the surface like mystic powers and faith healing. I wonder if it shows a basic misunderstanding of the cause of illness and how to cure diseases?
 
**Jesus performs various exorcisms including one on someone who is “demon possessed”. **

Back in those times some temple jews were still worshiping and making sacrifices ba’al and other gods…Judas Maccabeus makes mention of this and this is where we get our right to pray for departed souls.

Anyway all those lesser gods were basically demons that could and occasionally would do the bidding of those that worshiped them. But this lesser god magic and healing was akin to us today playing with an Ouija board…bad and regrettable things will eventually manifest itself…like demons in sick people back in those days.

The one and only God, Yahweh gave us the 1st commandment 1st for a very good reason…most all the travails of our ancient Jew cousins can be traced to the worshiping of false gods. After all he even told us he was a jealous God…it’s even written that he considers his chosen people like his bride.
 
Hmm. I do have to question why the new testament is written as you would expect from uneducated fishermen from the first century.

If God had actually inspired the writing of the Bible why are they not able to explain the diagnosis and treatment of disease and mental illness in a modern way.
Perhaps if God intended to inspire a Gospel of Medical Practice he would have done so. Apparently, his intention was the salvation of humankind from the eternal repercussions of sin, not the medical treatment of transitory disease.

He may have chosen uneducated fishermen because these individuals knew essentially what it was to be human. It would make sense to inspire those who have a shot at being restored to their innate “humanness” and could thereby write authoritatively on the subject.

Recall, also, that physical health has a temporal expiry date, but spiritual well-being is an eternal endeavor. God has his priorities.
The methods used by Jesus do look on the surface like mystic powers and faith healing. I wonder if it shows a basic misunderstanding of the cause of illness and how to cure diseases?
Yes, and if Jesus is God, then he knows something about the origins of dis-ease and dysfunction that may go beyond physical manifestations. The misunderstanding may be on our part as a presumption that we know more than we really do.

Science has nada to say about what underpins physical reality. Why does gravity take effect? Why are there forces of attraction and repulsion at work in the physical and subatomic world? Why did living things take on the forms they actually have? Why do energy and matter have the relationship they do?

Much of the practice of medicine involves the masking of symptoms and most “cures” involve redressing preventative failures. The causes of illness are typically behavioral or procedural, or foreign invasion by microbial entities. A physical representation symbolic of spiritual reality, perhaps?
 
Hmm. I do have to question why the new testament is written as you would expect from uneducated fishermen from the first century.

If God had actually inspired the writing of the Bible why are they not able to explain the diagnosis and treatment of disease and mental illness in a modern way.

The methods used by Jesus do look on the surface like mystic powers and faith healing. I wonder if it shows a basic misunderstanding of the cause of illness and how to cure diseases?
The “modern way” of curing someone blind from birth is… not to. Jesus is God for Whom nothing is impossible.

The different writings of the Canon of Scripture comprise a collection of types, like history, poetry and law. What was not included was a medical book.

If you actually were at all learned about the New Testament, you’d know it isn’t written “as you would expect from uneducated fishermen from the first century.” But I suppose that’s another topic.
 
Hmm. I do have to question why the new testament is written as you would expect from uneducated fishermen from the first century.

If God had actually inspired the writing of the Bible why are they not able to explain the diagnosis and treatment of disease and mental illness in a modern way.

The methods used by Jesus do look on the surface like mystic powers and faith healing. I wonder if it shows a basic misunderstanding of the cause of illness and how to cure diseases?
No, you misunderstand what you are reading in the Bible. Did you read my whole post?

Jesus’ understanding of the causes of illness and how to cure them is not why God inspired the writers to write what they did. God inspired the writers to write what they did for exactly one reason - to save your soul. The salvation of your soul is the subject of the Bible. Jesus’ understanding of medicine is not the subject of the Bible and so questioning it is just silly.

That’s like questioning Jesus’ understanding of gravity and the density of humans relative to water because he walked on the sea. It entirely misses the point of the story.

Jesus is God. He can heal any way he wants. He can walk on water if he wants. That the point of the story.

And they weren’t all uneducated. They weren’t all fisherment either. Luke was a highly educated physician, artist and philosopher. Matthew was a tax collector for the Romans and so obviously knew the basics of mathematics and probably basic accounting. Paul was an highly educated scripture scholar, a child prodigy, and a tradesman, a tent maker. Most Jewish men had a highly developed unerstanding of scripture. They were taught to read and write using scripture and studied it every sabbath in the synagogues and schools. Even Peter wasn’t totally uneducated. He ran a successful fishing business. That they were completely uneducated is a myth.

-Tim-
 
Sin leads to death.

You can’t explain death unless you have experienced it. You can’t explain miracles unless you have experienced it.
 
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