Did Jesus need to be God?

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Did Jesus have to be God in order for the atonement to work out?

What if God in His grace preserved a man from original sin and this man obeyed every letter of the Law and was wholly righteous and offered this life up on the cross as atonement for the sins of the world? Would it satisfy God?

Romans 5:19 - “For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”

It is through the obedience of one man that many were made righteous. I understand there are other factors like God coming down to earth as an expression of love etc. but if we take the atonement by itself could it have been accomplished by a man free of original sin? Did the man require a divine nature?

 

[grannymh]

Yes.

A bit of logic as to the different status between God and Adam clarifies the answer yes.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Yes.

A bit of logic as to the different status between God and Adam clarifies the answer yes.

Could you explain?

I’ve also heard that an infinite sacrifice (God) was needed to cover for the infinite consequence of original sin.

Is this view supported by the Church or found in any of her teachings?

I don’t see how this works. Jesus was satisfying God through His life of obedience. We also have to remember that God didn’t actually die, and so the infinite price wasn’t really paid. This isn’t penal substitution.

 

[catholictiger]

yes because the only way that the debt can be paid to God that we owe because of our sins is if Jesus Christ is God.

St. Anselm explains this beautifully in cur deos homo. I will try to explain it but it is beautifully explained there I don’t remember where exactly in it but it is there. I think it is in chapters 21 to 24

This is somewhat his idea. When ever you offend someone you have to pay back what you did to them and plus some. We have offended God with our sin many many times. Anselm says that we owe more then everything to God but not more than God. So as human’s we can’t pay back God the debt we owe him. So only a God man can pay it back. It has to be God because only God can pay off a debt of more then everything, it has to be a man because only man is guilty of sin and because of this God must be man to pay it off.

I didn’t do a great job of explaining it but go read chapters 21-24 (I think) of cur deos homo, that should help you find what you need.

[fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anselm-curdeus.asp#ACHAPTER XXV](Internet History Sourcebooks XXV)

read chapters 21-25 in the above link I don’t have the time to break it down for you.

 

[bzkoss236]

Consider that despite their best efforts, no sacrifice in the OT times were ever good enough for the atonement of every human being on earth in the past, present, and future. The atonement wasn’t even enough for the OT fathers and those in God’s friendship to make it to heaven. Instead, they were in a ‘safe house’ in hell, called the Bosom of Abraham. Only a perfect sacrifice could atone for every person who has been, is, or will be. Even a sinless person isn’t perfect enough for this in God’s eyes. Only God can atone for the sins of every human. And because of God’s love for us, He decided to humble himself for us in this way, that we might know Him better, and that He could become the perfect sacrifice to atone for the sins of all, to bring about the salvation of many.

So, I would say yes, Jesus did need to be God. Only God is perfect in every way.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Consider that despite their best efforts, no sacrifice in the OT times were ever good enough for the atonement of every human being on earth in the past, present, and future. The atonement wasn’t even enough for the OT fathers and those in God’s friendship to make it to heaven. Instead, they were in a ‘safe house’ in hell, called the Bosom of Abraham. Only a perfect sacrifice could atone for every person who has been, is, or will be. Even a sinless person isn’t perfect enough for this in God’s eyes. Only God can atone for the sins of every human. And because of God’s love for us, He decided to humble himself for us in this way, that we might know Him better, and that He could become the perfect sacrifice to atone for the sins of all, to bring about the salvation of many.

So, I would say yes, Jesus did need to be God. Only God is perfect in every way.

Any reason why a sinless person wouldn’t be enough?

 

[bzkoss236]

Any reason why a sinless person wouldn’t be enough?

Well, consider the Catholic beliefs toward Mary. Catholics believe her to be sinless, and yet she was not chosen. You could say that it is because she was still human. Humans, without salvation, are finite and cannot cause an effect beyond their bounds. Even an immortal person’s soul is finite in a sense, because it had a beginning. And doesn’t that mean that their sacrifice could not be efficatious before their beginning?

We can’t know exactly (without revelation), why God does the things He does. So, we can’t know exactly why a sinless person wasn’t “perfect” enough. But God is perfect, and the perfect sacrifice.

I guess you could look at the reflection of fathers here on earth to get a glimpse of what might have happened. Fathers love their children, and if some of their children are in danger, are they going to tell some of their other children to save them, or is he going to spring into action himself and do what he can to save them himself, not out of pride, but out of love.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

I guess you could look at the reflection of fathers here on earth to get a glimpse of what might have happened. Fathers love their children, and if some of their children are in danger, are they going to tell some of their other children to save them, or is he going to spring into action himself and do what he can to save them himself, not out of pride, but out of love.

I accept this part, that God did it Himself rather than getting someone else to do it, but theoretically I’m just wondering that if He did get one of His children to do it, whether it would work or not.

You said that humans are finite and cannot ‘cause an effect beyond that bounds’. What do you mean by that? Remember that Moses was able to atone for Israel.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, of course. Read “On the incarnation” by St. Athanasius the Great. I think it is sad that this aspect of Christian teaching has been forgotten in the West. People focus on the crucifixion alone and forget that God needed to unite with man’s nature so that man’s nature might be sanctified and redeemed.

Here are a few excerpts:

But repentance would not guard the Divine consistency, for, if death did not hold dominion over men, God would still remain untrue. Nor does repentance recall men from what is according to their nature; all that it does is to make them cease from sinning. Had it been a case of a trespass only, and not of a subsequent corruption, repentance would have been well enough; but when once transgression had begun men came under the power of the corruption proper to their nature and were bereft of the grace which belonged to them as creatures in the Image of God.

His part it was, and His alone, both to bring again the corruptible to incorruption and to maintain for the Father His consistency of character with all. For He alone, being Word of the Father and above all, was in consequence both able to recreate all, and worthy to suffer on behalf of all and to be an ambassador for all with the Father.

 

[mcrow]

I accept this part, that God did it Himself rather than getting someone else to do it, but theoretically I’m just wondering that if He did get one of His children to do it, whether it would work or not.

You said that humans are finite and cannot ‘cause an effect beyond that bounds’. What do you mean by that? Remember that Moses was able to atone for Israel.

I think you are over thinking this.

Given the prophecy that the Messiah will have an eternal kingdom, would be son of God, and that the Messiah would be sacrificed, it requires divinity. It was not simply a truly righteous man that was required, the prophecies said it must be the Messiah, the Messiah is the son of God. So, it is pretty clear that there could only be one being sacrificed and that would be the son of God.

 

[catholictiger]

Any reason why a sinless person wouldn’t be enough?

Because he isn’t God.

Think of a time when kingdoms are dominate in the world. You have the King, You have his family the nobel men, you have lords who are under Nobel men and the king. Lastly you have everyone else the peasants. The king is generous he makes sure the peasants are fed and shelter and such, but he also tells them be satisfied with what you have and don’t demand more. One day a small group of peasants are unhappy with the king and trick the majority of the peasants to revolt and try and overthrow the king even some lords join in. But the kings armies put the revolution ends quickly. In anger the king threatens to banish all those who faught against him I. The revolt and those outside the kingdom will starve to death. So this banishment is a death sentence. So some lords go to the king and say I will give up my position and let you choose someone else. The king appreciates this but it isn’t enough one lord doesn’t mean enough you can’t pay enough. Then his son ( the heir to the throne) says don’t take out your rath on them, I will give up everything even my place on the throne so that these peasants can still live in our kingdom. The king agrees and lets the peasants stay. If the son didn’t do that he would have banished him because no sacrifice from a lord or peasant would ever be enough only his son could convince him.

Same goes in Heaven in the heirarchy of heaven we are like peasents bellow the trinity and bellow the angels. We in our sin have offended god to the worst end possible. We have completely rejected God we only deserve to be banished for all eternity from heaven. The debt we owe to God is so great no one of us can pay for it. Not even the angels can pay for it. We destroyed everything in our relationship with God and we must pay beyond everything to be right with God. Only a God man who gives everything for the peasents can pay what they owe to the Father.

Jesus must be God because only God can repay the greatest debt in history.

Again this is all from cur dues homos by st anselm it’s long and at times confusing but the read is worth it.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Yes.

A bit of logic as to the different status between God and Adam clarifies the answer yes.

Could you explain?

The answers you are getting to your questions are good but not adequate.

To respond to your question “Could you explain?” referring to my simple comment “A bit of logic as to the different status between God and Adam clarifies the answer yes.”------I ask myself what is the best way a granny can do this explaining?

To explain, this is what I would do. I would take two sheets of paper. On the first sheet of paper, I would write down what we know about God as He is presented in the first three chapters in Genesis, not the Gospels. On the second sheet of paper, I would write down what we know about Adam from the first three chapters of Genesis.
However, I would add to this sheet what Catholics have learned about Adam from Divine Revelation. For example, we follow the teachings of St. Paul and we depend on the major ecumenical Church Councils for more explicit doctrines according to Jesus’ instructions in chapter 14 of the Gospel of John.

Then I would compare the two sheets of paper in order to find the differences. As a start, what would be considered the “status” of God and of Adam?

Because I am still learning about Adam off CAF, I am intensely curious about how CAF posters explain the differences between God and Adam. I have no direct knowledge about the early Church Fathers beyond the obvious fact that their writings are always thoroughly studied as preparation for a Church Council. One of the sources about these inspired writers, which I will eventually use, is the “Index of Citations” which starts on page 689, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

Bottom line_______________ If you and others will share with me “those differences”, then we will be able to dialogue about the very basic, necessary reasons, Jesus had to be both True God and True Man.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Because he isn’t God.

Think of a time when kingdoms are dominate in the world. You have the King, You have his family the nobel men, you have lords who are under Nobel men and the king. Lastly you have everyone else the peasants. The king is generous he makes sure the peasants are fed and shelter and such, but he also tells them be satisfied with what you have and don’t demand more. One day a small group of peasants are unhappy with the king and trick the majority of the peasants to revolt and try and overthrow the king even some lords join in. But the kings armies put the revolution ends quickly. In anger the king threatens to banish all those who faught against him I. The revolt and those outside the kingdom will starve to death. So this banishment is a death sentence. So some lords go to the king and say I will give up my position and let you choose someone else. The king appreciates this but it isn’t enough one lord doesn’t mean enough you can’t pay enough. Then his son ( the heir to the throne) says don’t take out your rath on them, I will give up everything even my place on the throne so that these peasants can still live in our kingdom. The king agrees and lets the peasants stay. If the son didn’t do that he would have banished him because no sacrifice from a lord or peasant would ever be enough only his son could convince him.

Same goes in Heaven in the heirarchy of heaven we are like peasents bellow the trinity and bellow the angels. We in our sin have offended god to the worst end possible. We have completely rejected God we only deserve to be banished for all eternity from heaven. The debt we owe to God is so great no one of us can pay for it. Not even the angels can pay for it. We destroyed everything in our relationship with God and we must pay beyond everything to be right with God. Only a God man who gives everything for the peasents can pay what they owe to the Father.

Jesus must be God because only God can repay the greatest debt in history.

Again this is all from cur dues homos by st anselm it’s long and at times confusing but the read is worth it.

Thank you, that helps quite a bit.

 

[Sultan_Of_Swing]

Yes, of course. Read “On the incarnation” by St. Athanasius the Great. I think it is sad that this aspect of Christian teaching has been forgotten in the West. People focus on the crucifixion alone and forget that God needed to unite with man’s nature so that man’s nature might be sanctified and redeemed.

Here are a few excerpts:

Yes that’s true people do focus on the crucifixion quite a bit. I really do have to get around to reading that.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes that’s true people do focus on the crucifixion quite a bit. I really do have to get around to reading that.

Yes. Aside from sin we also have to deal with the effects of sin, that is corruption and death. Christ needs to redeem our entire being and only by God becoming man does that happen.

 

[grannymh]

Because he isn’t God.

If the following is suppose to reflect the first three chapters of Genesis and Catholic doctrines, may I show you what is needed. If this is a story about something else, then you have my apology. However, I have heard so many explanations about Original Sin like this one…

Think of a time when kingdoms are dominate in the world.

First, there are not any kingdoms in the first three chapters of Genesis. Of course, you could count the kingdom of God; but, Adam didn’t live there. He lived in the Garden of Eden.

You have the King, You have his family the nobel men, you have lords who are under Nobel men and the king.

If the King is a figure of speech for God, there can only be one King and no other family members which would be more gods. Now, if you are referring to angels and “choirs of angels” etc., as lords under God, the single King, you do have a good point. A fallen angel tempted Adam in the Garden of Eden and cherubim guarded the way to the Tree of Life. Therefore, the lords stay; however, the King’s “family the noble men” have to go. We do have the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but that is One Nature, i.e., one God without additional family.

Lastly you have everyone else the peasants.

It is a good figure of speech to say that both Adam and Eve are peasants meaning that they are human.

However, in the first three chapters of Genesis and in paragraphs 396-409 of the universal* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition,* there is not a small group of unhappy peasants who trick the majority of peasants into a revolt to try to overthrow the King. There is only one Adam. Because Adam is the first creature or peasant, the whole human race is in him “as one body of one man.” ( St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4,1.) Adam’s spouse is Eve who with Adam will eventually transmit human nature to all future peasants.

At this point, we need to clarify that the King (God) is actually a transcendent, all-mighty Pure Spirit without restrictions. He does not need an army because as God, He is maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. This divine truth is professed at the Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. (Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed) Obviously, this King (God) is extremely generous because he formed human nature from both the material world and the spiritual world. This meant that Adam was in the image of God because he was called to share in God’s life through knowledge and love, both of which are faculties of the spiritual soul.

Since Adam is the creature and not equal to the Creator, he has to choose to live in free submission to God. The status of Adam is different from the status of God.

The way the fallen angel Satan tempted Adam, was to claim that the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would make him like a god who knows everything. What else is there to know besides good and evil? Adam was tempted to choose himself over and against God and against the requirements (obedience to God commands) of his creature status and consequently against his own good.

Adam’s disobedience shattered humanity’s relationship with God. Adam and Eve immediately lost the grace of their original holiness. Their human nature was wounded. Yet, God did not abandon Adam’s descendants. God promised a Redeemer who would share the same status of God and thus, He could repair the broken relationship with God. As true man, the Redeemer could stand in our place and thus, we would receive the graces of the Redeemer’s obedience. (Romans 5: 12-21)

Not only did Jesus need to be God, but He also needed to be human.

 

[fhansen]

Man is the problem; how can he fix himself? Man is lost; who can show him the way back to God except, well, God?

 

[fisherman_carl]

Did Jesus have to be God in order for the atonement to work out?

What if God in His grace preserved a man from original sin and this man obeyed every letter of the Law and was wholly righteous and offered this life up on the cross as atonement for the sins of the world? Would it satisfy God?

Jesus is God Incarnate. So he is necessarily himself. That is who he revealed himself to be. However, to answer your question about whether it was necessary for God to come and die on the Cross for us is of course no. God, being sovereign could have done it differently. But, however God chose to do it, it would be God who did it since man could not save himself. Even in your hypothetical situation it is still God who gave the person the grace. So, why did God choose to do it this way?

I think the atonement was more than just an offering for sins but a demonstration of God’s love for us. ‘For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him shall have eternal life.’ (Jn 3:16)

Perhaps the answer can be found in St. Thomas Aquinas’s 5 reasons for the Cross.

Summary of the St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica on the 5 reasons the cross was chosen by God

The Cross [shows us that]:

1. God loves us.
   Rom 5:8 - we look at the cross and we see how intensely God loves us. We don’t have to earn God’s approval or love. We just need to turn to him. He won’t force us to love him. God loves us so deeply he sent his Son…(Jn 3:16)

“Indeed, only with difficulty does one die for a just person, though perhaps for a good person one might even find courage to die. But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.”

• Rom 5:7-8

1. Gives us an example
   To give us an example of obedience, humility, and the other virtues.
   1 Pt 2:21 - ‘Christ suffered as an example…’ Christ is sinless and he also displays all of the virtues. We are called to be like Christ, perfectly obedient to his plan.
2. Gives us justifying grace and makes us a part of the family of God sharing in the divine life and is not just a forgiveness or pardon.
   Christ by his passion not only delivers man from sin but merits justifying grace for him and the glory of bliss. Salvation is more than God forgiving us our sins. It is God inviting us to the intimacy of his inner life. It is more than just fire insurance. Not only are you free from your sin or your condemnation, God is calling us to adopt us, to make us part of his family, to help us share in his divine life. - partakers in the divine nature (2 Pt 1:4).
3. We are more bound or more likely to refrain from sin.
   Because of the cross we see how horrendous sin is. 1 Cor 6:20 - ‘you are bought with a great price. glorify God in your body.’ We see the great price that was paid for our salvation and inspires us to love God even more.
4. Man’s dignity is redounded
   Because God knows that human dignity was damaged by the fall. The devil was able to use a human being to bring sin into the world. So God wants to raise up human nature. So God comes as a man to save us from sin. 1 Cor 15 - ‘thanks be to God who has given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.’ “It was accordingly more fitting that we should be delivered by Christ’s passion then simply by God’s good will” (St. Thomas Aquinas).

“There was no other more suitable way then healing our misery then by the passion of Christ”

• St. Augustine

 

[fisherman_carl]

And one other thing about your hypothetical situation. It is not too far off from Christ in the sense that Christ really did become human. But, it is the most perfect union of God and man that is found in the Person of Christ. How could man be united any closer to God then through the God man, Jesus Christ? All glory and honor and praise to him forever more!

 

[CaptFun]

Any reason why a sinless person wouldn’t be enough?

Just the reason that God didn’t DO that. His will and knowledge is perfect.

HAD He done that … would it really have been better? :nope: Just as good? :nope:

Even though our human sensibilities like to contend with God a bit. Oh, we “accept” things. But then we sort of whine things like “well why can’t I just be in paradise right now like Adam was … with only the fruit of one tree being my restriction?” inside ourselves.

That’s pretty non-productive and self-indulgent … although it would be nice, lol. uch:

The mysteries we don’t understand we may look into respectfully (“seek and you shall find”) but posing alternative plans of salvation or nurturing our “I’ve got a better idea” side is probably not the best idea.

We MUSN’T imply that God “took things too far” when He might have done much less and accomplished the same thing - when it’s pretty certain that His way is best! Even if we don’t understand all the hows and whys of the mystery.