Did Jesus really abolish the OT laws?

[edwinG]

Adam D:

It is often said on forums here that we don’t follow such and such a law from Leviticus, or whathaveyou, precisely because Jesus did away with the OT laws. Now is this precisely true? I agree with the fact that Christians are not bound to certain laws of Torah, but I feel it’s incorrect to say that this is because ot what Jesus taught or did. I propose that it is much more accurate to say that Christ’s ministers, the apostles, relaxed particular disciplines of the law but retained for themselves the authority over the law that has always been part of God’s covenants and always will be.

This is not nit-picking. I think it has real and serious apologetic consequences, especially when sharing the gospel with Jews and even with Protestant Christians who doubt the authority of the Catholic Church to bind a Christian to her laws.

Any comments?

Hi Adam D,
You must be more confused than ever. Firstly, in case you need to know, I am not catholic.
As has been stated, and quoted from Scipture, not one iota will pass from the law, so you can safely say, that sincere christians are totally subject to all the laws of the OT.
Remember Jesus fulfilled the law. This means that Jesus filled it up, or made it harder if you like and now in its most difficult format we are to live within it.
To fullfill the law. The laws of the old testament were not laws of justice. Those times were very bad, and are in some heathen places here, like in Thailand, where the punishment often went way beyond the crime. Ie if you raped a daughter you may find half your family killed in a raid. Here in Thailand you can pay money to an agent and any one of hundreds of gunman can come and kill you and claim the bounty. Now God in His mercy gave the law as a limit to repayment. IT was a law of mercy, not of justice.
When Christ came, He fullfilled the law, that means now instead of taking an eye for an eye, you must forgive them which is so much harder than seeking some equivalent repayment. See by forgiveness you are topping up the orginal law of mercy which was a law of constraint. Now God shows us that one one could live up to the first law, the law of mercy so how are we expected to live up to the fullfilled law. Easy by the power of the Holy Spirit as we , on being members of Christ’s body, entered the Kingdom of God and God’s Holy Spirit indwells.
The law of divorce is not as easy to see. Jesus says that law of divorce was given because of their ( Israels) hard hearts. I imagine that in those days not everyone could write and writing was more of a difficulty than it is today with pen and paper lying about in nearly every room. Now Jesus fulfilled the law. Before the law men just discarded women, then the law and divorce with a letter rule came in now no divorce except for fornication. Again only in our mutual love of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit do we have a hope of a deeply loving human relationship with our partners.
Ceremonies, Saturdays was a big one, but Jesus clearly showed that He was master of even Saturday. Now Saturday is a day of doing good, not just a day of doing for yourself.
In short, by following the Holy Spirit you completely fullfill every law their is without fear. It is so simple.
I am sorry to say but some churches fill up their members to the eyebrows with man made laws and rules, in ignorance I hope and not in defiance, of Christ’s sacrifice, in which we passed from the flesh into the spirit. There is no way possible for anyone to obey the new fullfilled laws in the flesh because even the unfulfilled laws were proven impossible to be kept. Get out of the flesh. Follow the Holy Spirit.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[PaulDupre]

Adam D:

It is often said on forums here that we don’t follow such and such a law from Leviticus, or whathaveyou, precisely because Jesus did away with the OT laws. Now is this precisely true? I agree with the fact that Christians are not bound to certain laws of Torah, but I feel it’s incorrect to say that this is because ot what Jesus taught or did. I propose that it is much more accurate to say that Christ’s ministers, the apostles, relaxed particular disciplines of the law but retained for themselves the authority over the law that has always been part of God’s covenants and always will be.

This is not nit-picking. I think it has real and serious apologetic consequences, especially when sharing the gospel with Jews and even with Protestant Christians who doubt the authority of the Catholic Church to bind a Christian to her laws.

Any comments?

Hi Adam,
I see what you mean, and it is an important question.

I think the best biblical example of the Church relaxing disciplines (in this case circumcision and clean/unclean foods) is the First Jerusalem Council as recorded in Acts 15.

It is true that Jesus himself never removed the requirements of circumcision and clean/unclean foods, but left those tasks to the Church.
Paul

 

[dcdurel]

As has been stated, and quoted from Scipture, not one iota will pass from the law, so you can safely say, that sincere christians are totally subject to all the laws of the OT.

This is incorrect. Christians were never under the law of Moses.
Jesus never said Christians had to be circumcised. No where in the entire bible does it say that Christians were under the law of Moses. The law of Moses will never change, but Jews who become Christians no longer are under the authority of the law of Moses, but are no under the law of Christ.
Just as when you move from one state to another (New York to California) for example, and buy a house and live in the new state. You are no longer under the laws of the first state. You are now under the laws of your new state. The laws in neither state changed, but their authority over you changed.
St. Paul never said Christians had to be circumcised. The Bible never says Christians had to be circumcised. When a Jew became a Christian, he was no longer under the law of Moses.
That same Church St. Paul belonged to, the Catholic Church, never taught that Christians are under the law of Moses. Thus, Christians do not have to be circumcised, do not have to follow the Jewish feast days, do not have to observe the sabbath, but Sunday instead, and can eat pork, etc.

St. Paul fought that error over and over. It was only the Judiazers that made up the false teaching that Christians had to be circumcised, and thus follow the law of Moses.

The law of Moses was only for the Israelites.

The Ten Commandments are for everybody, since they are part of the natural law. Thus, the moral law applies to Christians and everyone else in the world.

If you were Catholic and studied Catholic Church teachings well, you would know this already.

 

[Adam_D]

Hello all,

I’ve been away from the forums for a long stretch now, and am a little surprised to see this old thread is still going. Thanks for giving the question some thought. I’ve been thinking on it too as I’ve been away.

dcdurel and Emmaus, thanks a bunch! I agree with you. Also, I have found, since I was last at these here forums, that Thomas Aquinas addressed my questions painfully directly (I am slowly learning to assume that he probably has already addressed almost any question that I’m ever gonna ask )

He does so here: Was the old law binding on all?

and here: The new law as compared with the old

The Angelic Doctor definitely disagrees with my notion that the old law is the same as the new law. Both laws contain particular prescriptions that are binding on specific groups of people (Jews or Catholics) while the universal law of moral conduct is binding on all, as it is written on the hearts of all.

The big problem with my other tact was to think that all of the Church’s laws should bind all people everywhere. I don’t know why I thought this … it’s just the papist tyrant in me I guess But that would mean all those non-Catholics who fail to live like Catholics are committing innumerable sins of defiance. Of course it’s nonsense. Still the Church (as demonstrated in the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15, like Paul Dupre pointed to) definitely does have a right to enact laws, but the laws of Christ’s Church are not the same as the laws of Moses, as Aquinas spelled out so perfectly for me.

Edwin G,
thanks for the thought, though I definitely disagree. For one, it sounds like you are trying to dichotomize the flesh and the spirit. In some senses this is okay (the Bible does so) but it cannot be in an absolute sense. God made our flesh, and it is good. It is fitting that we worship him with it, and the laws of the Church address us in our humanity as both fleshly and spiritual. Why should we think that God’s Church will be this ethereal non-physical thing you seem to be alluding to in your post?

I most definitely will not ‘get out of my flesh’. It is God’s gift to me, and I am to use it to glorify Him! So are you.

 

[enanneman]

Peace be with you, Edwin! You say:

edwinG:

As has been stated, and quoted from Scipture, not one iota will pass from the law, so you can safely say, that sincere christians are totally subject to all the laws of the OT.

But, Acts 11 clearly shows that we are released from the Old Testament laws.

Acts 11:1-10
Now the apostles and the brothers who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles too had accepted the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem the circumcised believers confronted him, saying, “You entered the house of uncircumcised people and ate with them.”

Peter began and explained it to them step by step, saying, "I was at prayer in the city of Joppa when in a trance I had a vision, something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered from the sky by its four corners, and it came to me. Looking intently into it, I observed and saw the four-legged animals of the earth, the wild beasts, the reptiles, and the birds of the sky. I also heard a voice say to me, ‘Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.’ But I said, ‘Certainly not, sir, because nothing profane or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ But a second time a voice from heaven answered, ‘What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.’ This happened three times, and then everything was drawn up again into the sky.

Peter later shares this knowledge with the others in Acts 15.

Acts 15:10-11
“Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.”

Peace and God bless!

Eric