Did Jesus really exist?

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oneofmany

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A person on another web site wants to know 4 reasons besides the bible to know that Jesus really existed. Does anyone on here know of 4?
 
In my humble opinion.

Apart from the miracles and supernatural things in the New Testament.

Anyone with an Open Mind, who really wants to seek the truth, and is not necessarily an expert in history. Anyone who wants to really study and read the new testament, gets convinced that Jesus Existed. Like Albert Einstein said Jesus personality pulsates in every word, no myth is filled with such life.

There are documents, such as Tacitus, and Josephus, and others about Jesus, but they must not see independently of one another, I think, but I would recommend you to read the bart ehrman book: "did jesus exist? "
 
Of course He existed. No serious person (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, etc,etcetc,) believes otherwise. Lots of people doubt or don’t believe WHO He was, but no serious person thinks He didn’t exist.

I find it laughable that he demands 4 references, as if there is some magical property to four references, but three is unreliable.

Outside the NT, there are 3 references to Jesus by non-Christians. Two by Josephus and one by Tacitus.

There are three mentions of Jesus in non-Christian sources, which have been used in historical analyses of the existence of Jesus.[34] These are two mentions in the works of 1st-century Roman historian Josephus and one mention in the works of the 2nd-century Roman historian Tacitus.[34][35]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Wikipedia isn’t the greatest reference, but on this topic it should work ok.

And why exactly are the 8 or more authors of the NT completely unworthy of consideration for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth? That makes no sense.
 
He definitely existed.

The Roman historians Pliny the Younger, Cornelius Tacitus, and Suetonius have mentioned Jesus in their writings.

Secular Greek speaking historians Thallus and Phlegon, Lucian of Samosata mentioned Jesus.

Jewish historian Josephus is probably the most known outside Bible source for Christ’s existence.

Now my question is. Why not use the Bible? It is a collection of books with different writing styles and composition formats, that mentioned Jesus.

You also need to know that when it comes to ancient history many of the original writings and sources don’t exist today. The reason why we know so much about the ancient past has been due to the monks rewriting many of the original sources so they could be preserved for the future.
 
  1. Google
    2.Yahoo
  2. bing
  3. A big stack of accepted Holy texts that are not Christian that speak of the existence of Christ.
If it were me I would ask him for four authoritative things that suggest he does not exist.
 
The Bible is a collection of writings. Using his standard, if the works of guys like Pliny, Josephus, et al. were also parts of the Bible (just as a hypothetical), he wouldn’t count them, which is absurd. One cannot discount the Bible due to the whole “The Bible can be used as proof since it is the claim” due to the fact that they are treating the Bible like a single work and piece of writing. It would be akin to discounting a library with information on Jesus since he writings are all collected in the same place.
 
If I recall correctly, we have more proof that Jesus existed than Alexander the Great. Is Mr. Great a myth?
 
There is no doubt from a historical perspective that there was a man named Jesus who was crucified because he was considered the “King of the Jews” and as such, was seen as a true threat to the Roman Empire. He was then buried and three days later, the body disappeared from the grave without a trace.

The difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is a Christian believes that Jesus was God incarnate and that He died to atone for our sins so that we can have eternal life, while non-Christians profess no such belief. Not even the most ardent non-Christian denies the existence of the most famous political prisoner to be crucified by the Roman Empire!

Are people in 2000 years going to be asking “Did Adolf Hitler really exist?” And will they ask for proof other than Mein Kampf to prove his existence?
 
There are also the apparent relics of Jesus’ passion and death, including the Titulus Crucis, the Sudarium of Oviedo, and the Shroud of Turin.
 
runningdude said:
If I recall correctly, we have more proof that Jesus existed than Alexander the Great. Is Mr. Great a myth?
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I don’t know about the historical record for Alexander, but there are no contemporary historical accounts of the Emperor Nero. The oldest account of Nero was written 50 years after his death, by someone who was a young child when Nero died. The next two oldest accounts were written 150 years after his death.

He was the flippin’ Emperor of the Roman Empire - of the Caesars, his 14-year reign was the second longest. Yet, we have more historical evidence for Jesus than we do for the most powerful man on earth for 14 years, the Emperor Nero.
 
There is little evidence for Shutruk Nahhunte either.

Compare Jesus and Shutruk, Shutruk is more of a myth than Jesus.
 
For me it is simple university logic…

Since I spoke with Him this morning, I know He does exist.

If He does exist, then He did exist.

=============================

Knock and seek, only then will you find; and the more we seek, the more we find!

Fatherseeker:yup:
 
DaddyGirl said:
There are indeed “serious” people who debate whether he existed.

.
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Yes, but we’re not counting seriously deluded people. 😃

Indeed, they may “debate" the question, but don’t do so very convincingly.
 
oneofmany said:
A person on another web site wants to know 4 reasons besides the bible to know that Jesus really existed. Does anyone on here know of 4?
Click to expand...
I would give this person seven reasons that He exists. Anyone venture to guess what these seven reasons might be?
 
JWH123 said:
There is no doubt from a historical perspective that there was a man named Jesus who was crucified because he was considered the “King of the Jews” and as such, was seen as a true threat to the Roman Empire. He was then buried and three days later, the body disappeared from the grave without a trace.

The difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is a Christian believes that Jesus was God incarnate and that He died to atone for our sins so that we can have eternal life, while non-Christians profess no such belief. Not even the most ardent non-Christian denies the existence of the most famous political prisoner to be crucified by the Roman Empire!
Click to expand...
I think it’s always a good idea for Christians to avoid getting carried away about how much of anything non-Christians might agree with.

A non-Christian might agree that ‘Jesus’ existed, ie it’s highly likely that a particular rabbi (teacher) called ‘Jesus’ existed and a number of people around at the time were impressed by him. Meanwhile the non-Christian’s reaction to ‘JESUS’ (Messiah/God/Saviour) as depicted in the Christian scriptures might well be ‘I don’t believe a word of it’ (including the whole disappearing bodies business).

In other words, I’m quite happy to agree that ‘Jesus’ existed but not that ‘JESUS’ existed so the answer to ‘Did Jesus really exist?’ would be - “It really rather does depend on what you mean by that.”
 
oneofmany said:
A person on another web site wants to know 4 reasons besides the bible to know that Jesus really existed. Does anyone on here know of 4?
Click to expand...
Non-biblical accounts of New Testament events and/or people
by Matt Slick
carm.org/non-biblical-accounts-new-testament-events-andor-people

Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

1. Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod–Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.”

2. Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37?-101?) mentions Jesus–Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

3. Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus–Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.

“Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done.”
Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2

Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money

Acts 23:2, “And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth.”

5. Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions “Christus” who is Jesus–Annals 15.44

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

Ref. from classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

(cont.)
 
6. Thallus (Circa A.D. 52, eclipse of the sun) Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, who wrote about A.D. 221, mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun.

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, “And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.”

The oddity is that Jesus’ crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus’ mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus’ crucifixion. It may not have been.

Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.​

7. Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

8. The Talmud

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!”

Gal. 3:13, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.”

Luke 22:1-2, “Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.”

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

9. Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 1113, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.
Sources

McDowell, Josh. Evidence that Demands a Verdict. San Bernardino, CA: Here’s Life Publishers, Inc., 1979.
Habermas, Gary R. The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ. Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company, 1996.
Encarta on the Web at encarta.msn.com
 
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