Did Jesus really intend to establish a church?

[bonnjer]

I posted this earlier in the thread. Their response indicates that they scrubbed it from the original story. They didn’t adjust the quote, but instead, completely removed all trace of it.

"Thank you for your e-mail.

Indeed, the quote on its own is missing some important context that comes from the remainder of the very lengthy speech. All complaints I have heard about the speech are from people who did not attend.

I’ve asked our staff to adjust the online quote, as I think you are right that it is (at best) misleading."

 

[MT1926]

I found this response on line…

a diocesan spokesman told the apostolate that Conlon is suffering from a “context problem” and insisted the bishop is “obviously Catholic.”

He said in an official statement:

Bishop Conlon recently spoke at a lecture at Elmhurst College that was entitled “Did Jesus Really Intend to Establish a Church?” His lecture should be based on its entirety, not just one quote that was extrapolated. Those in attendance can attest to the complete focus of the lecture since there is no audio or video of the talk.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is clear, “The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. … This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in … the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.” (816) The position of the Diocese of Joliet is the same as the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

No luck on the original talk but thought an official statement might help a bit.

To me the fact that the people claiming he said something heretical, without posting at least a paragraph before and after the statement, kind of tells me there’s something they don’t want you to hear.

Hope this helps,

God Bless

 

[rose321]

And the Gospels – which record eyewitness testimony – don’t count as ‘historical evidence’?

Respectfully opinion only…pondering…known fact in searching out …4 Gospels recorded were not… written by eyewitness testimony. Why they are called the …The Memoirs of the Apostles, written decades later…by unknown authors, there is no Theological, Scholarly, Historical debate on this today is there? Peace

Why is he, a bishop of the Church, saying that there is no absolute answer to this question. It pretty clearly states what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18.

Respectfully opinion only, stand to be correct also… in searching out from beginning…written in Hebrew, then Greek, then Latin, then English, then the Bible was then translated, transliterated into many other languages. Very difficult task !!

In searching out, throughout many sources, finding there is no original Greek copies today, no one holds them…We only have… Copies of Copies, etc…

The word used in the Greek copies, was not …church ( latin word) but the word was …Eklessia…means …assembly, congregation…to gather an

:thinking:Matthew 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Eklessia…assembly , congregation.

Jesus was a Hebrew Aramaic Israelite born in and raised in by his Parents …they had their synagogues which they continued to go to Apostles, St Paul after Jesus death and are still called Synagogues today are there not?

No scholarly debate on this word Eklessia…word was not Church ( Latin word?)…is there?

Jesus came not to build a… Physical one, but a Spiritual one maybe??

Did Jesus really intend to establish a church or to correct the teaching, maybe?

Maybe Jesus came also…to correct, restore, return to the teaching being lost. because they were not upholding the… Spoken Word of God maybe?: Souls and ones salvation were being lost maybe?

Jesus tells us why he came also?
Written…I have been sent and come only to the lost sheep of Israel ( lost 10 Tribes in the north) why?

Came also maybe…Why does Jesus harshly rebuke those within his own Temple the Highly Learned Men, Scribes (teachers gives all his woes?) Elders, High Priest, Sanhedrin Counsel…those who serve within his own Temple and stating…My Father’s is not a den of thieves… . etc etc in Matthew Chapter 23?

:thinking:Written…Maybe the time had come…to know…
:thinking:Written
My Kingdom is not of this world…
Kingdom of Heaven is within you…
I do not dwell in that which is made of hands…
Do you not know you are the Temple of the Lord?

St Paul .Do you not know you are the Temple of the Lord?

:thinking:Maybe Jesus came not to establish a physical place, but a Spiritual one within each of us maybe? Come under my roof??

Where our Heavenly Father … seeks to be Worshiped within, Glorified, rest and dwell within maybe?...

Written…As it is above so shall it be below?

Interesting title topic.Peace

 

[Gorgias]

pondering…known fact in searching out …4 Gospels recorded were not… written by eyewitness testimony. Why they are called the …The Memoirs of the Apostles, written decades later…by unknown authors, there is no Theological, Scholarly, Historical debate on this today is there?

Actually, the “early authorship” understanding of the Gospels really does assert apostolic authorship, either directly or through a ‘secretary’ or ‘scribe’ (or what today would be called a ‘biographer’ or ‘ghost-writer’ of sorts). See Pitre’s The Case for Jesus for more details.

There really is scholarly debate on the issue. It just doesn’t get much press. The sides have ossified, so it’s not so much a burning debate.

the word was …Eklessia…means …assembly, congregation…to gather an assembly, assembly of a body of believers, or can be an assembly of not believers, a congregation being this or that can it not be?

The question really isn’t “what was the word?”, but rather, “how would the apostles and first Christians have understood Jesus’ use of that word?” We see that they understood it to mean ‘church’ in the way we use it today, because that’s what they did – they set about organizing the Church that Jesus founded!

Jesus to build not a Physical one, but a Spiritual one, he came to establish and build upon maybe?

Why does a purely spiritual organization need a physical person (or twelve) as its leader(s)?

I have been sent and come only to the lost sheep of Israel ( lost 10 Tribes in the north) why?

At that point in His ministry? Yes. It expands, though, and He tells the Apostles to make disciples of all nations.

 

[rose321]

Why does a purely spiritual organization need a physical person (or twelve) as its leader(s)?

Respectfully opinion
Did Jesus come to establish a church or?

Why Jesus uses what is Visual…Finite…Physical. to teach us about what is… Invisible…Infinite. Eternal Creator. To know him?
Jesus uses what human beings could only comprehend to teach us about what is Invisible and exist…

Example…Jesus calls himself the Good Shepherd why?
Invisible… Good Shepherd… Infinite…Spiritual Being…Our Heavenly Father?
Visible …Good Shepherd…Finite Human Being…Earthy Father

:thinking:Good Shepherd…All knew how to visually, judge, know who was a Good Shepherd, just by looking at his sheep?

:thinking:Good Shepherd… all look at the health conditions of his sheep, if sick, free of diseases, can see, know, if they are being cared for?

:thinking:Good Shepherd…Provides nourishment, sees that his sheep are well feed, he gives direction, guidance and leads his sheep to clean waters, green pastures, protects, leads his sheep through storms?

Good Shepherd, when one Sheep is lost, a good shepherd he goes looking for his sheep when lost, does not want to lose one sheep. Good shepherd knows, if his sheep wanders off on its own, lost or left just being rebellious, if his sheep falls on its back…the lost sheep cannot pick itself back up onto its own feet on its own. If his lost sheep is not found …in 24 hrs the sheep will surly die. Lacks air, suffocates. Sheep needs its good Shepherd to save it…When found, by helping his lost sheep roll back onto its own feet, lost sheep follows His Good Shepherd by returning it back to the assembly of the fold, his flock…

.Good Shepherd disciplines his sheep, for their own good. He goes seeking to save a lost sheep if it wanders off gets lost. Good Shepherds save’s his sheep from its own enemies, who are out to devour it…Good Shepherd disciplines his sheep, why the Good Shepherd carries a long stick with a hook, to help the sheep roll back onto its feet and to discipline.

:thinking:Why Jesus uses what is visual to teach us about what is Invisible maybe?.
Jesus uses what is visible what we already Know, Understood
Its meaning
Its value
It’s used for
Why we need Coins $ value
Why we have Gates
Why Jesus calls us sheep
Why Jesus calls himself the Good Shepherd
Why Jesus tells us were the branches, he is the vine

Written…St Peter, I cannot speak to you about Spiritual matters while your still sipping milk…

…milk… is finite, visible, physical matter, nourishment to babies? Still sipping milk, not Spiritual mature yet?

Little St Therese…Child of Jesus…When one become’s like a little child, can one become Spiritually Mature.:rose :

Little St Therese…Little child of Jesus There is not such thing as death, death is only the agony we all go through…

Cannot give an answer to your other questions, one only has to seek out answers to on ones own, maybe?

:thinking:Written But you do not ask me, seek or knock at my door.

Peace

 

[Justin_Mary]

Why does a purely spiritual organization need a physical person (or twelve) as its leader(s)?

What purely spiritual organization are you speaking of?

The Chief cornerstone is a physical being, the God-man, God in the flesh. What He built is not of brick & mortar, but flesh & blood guided by the spirit of God.

 

[goout]

rose321:

Jesus to build not a Physical one, but a Spiritual one, he came to establish and build upon maybe?

Why does a purely spiritual organization need a physical person (or twelve) as its leader(s)?

Why does a purely spiritual organization need Jesus?
This gnostic point of view denies the Incarnation, whether wittingly or not.

 

[Gorgias]

What purely spiritual organization are you speaking of?

Rose posited that the Church was a spiritual, not physical, reality.

 

[rose321]

This gnostic point of view denies the Incarnation, whether wittingly or not.

Respectfully opinion

What does Jesus teach Apostles in his Spoken Word?

Question when Jesus comes the Hebrew Israelites believe that,God lived in the temple, a building within the Holy of Holies, onlydid they not?

Was Jesus teaching stating he is the first spark of light in darkness… …Spiritual Enlightment? Jesus was now teaching the complete opposite to his own Hebrew Israelites what they always believed or maybe only knew, through not fault of their own maybe…?

Jesus stating also, Abraham was happy to see…my time come, why?
Jesus was send and came for more then one reason maybe, Jesus at the last supper stating… I accomplished all you have given me?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? continue reading maybe…

:thinking:John 14:27 I have said these things to you while I am still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you.


:thinking:Was this a new teaching of Jesus… to his Hebrew Israelite Apostles hearing this teaching for the first time? Asking Jesus many questions?

:thinking:John 15:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever. This is the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him because he abides with you and he will be in you…

Ephesians 2:19-22

:thinking:1 Peter 2:2-5…5) like living stones, let your selves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ…

:thinking:John :45 It is written in the prophets…They shall all be taught by God. everyone who listens to my Father an learns from him comes to me…

:thinking:John 25 I have told you this while I am with you. The advocate the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I have told you…

:thinking:Acts 7:48 the God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands, as the prophets say…

We are told Jesus is our High Priest?

:thinking:St Paul Do you not know you are the Temple of the Lord? Living breathing and maybe where he seeks to be worshiped, glorified dwell and rest within us in our daily walk in life ?

:thinking:Written I am Holy thou art to be holy also?
Not just a call for the few to make it their life profession, Jesus call’s out to all to make themselves Holy?

:thinking:Matthew 12:38 swept house clean know not the hr?
Luke 11:16-23 swept our house clean?
1 Cor 10:4 Drank of that spiritual rock that followed them…?
1 Luke 12:12 for all that time the Holy spirit teach you…?
John 6:63 My word are Spirit and Life…?
Hebrew 4:12-13
1 Cor 12:13 Today we all drink one spirit by embracing all benefits by faith…
Peace

 

[stpurl]

Was Jesus teaching stating he is the first spark of light in darkness… …Spiritual Enlightment? Jesus was now teaching the complete opposite to his own Hebrew Israelites what they always believed or maybe only knew, through not fault of their own maybe…?

You seem to imply that Jesus (through His Father) taught ‘one truth’ to the Israelites at one point, and then taught, in your own words "The complete opposite’ later.

That is not just against Catholic teaching, but against logic. God does not change. Truth can certainly be deepened, but not to the point that what is once stated by God to be ‘truth’ can later become the complete opposite to a ‘new truth’.

 

[rose321]

You seem to imply that Jesus (through His Father) taught ‘one truth’ to the Israelites at one point, and then taught, in your own words "The complete opposite’ later.

Respectfully opinion only … not what I am implying at all sorry if I poorly communicated it, …Why I gave so many… Biblical Verses…not my words, but his Spoken Word…

Title topic…Did Jesus really intend to establish a church?

John 2:19 Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up…not a stone will be left on top of one another…
:thinking:Was the physical temple destroyed?
:thinking:Was the physical temple rebuilt?
:thinking:Was there a …stone …left on top of one another?
:thinkingid Jesus rebuild the physical temple in 3 days, the one that took them 40 years to build? Why not?

:thinking:Written I do not live in that which is made of hands…
:thinking:Written…Do you not know you are the Temple of the living God?
Not my words …but his all in Scripture why I listed so many Biblical verses …His Spoken Word

:thinking:Matthew Chapter 23 …whom is Jesus rebuking harshly, boldly and why? …Scribes (teachers)

Only questioning and examining what was written…searching Scripture to reply to …Topic title…Did Jesus really intend to establish a church?

God does not change …he is he same today as yesterday…But we needed to change?
Peace

 

[bobperk]

Well, this lecture is just in tune with the very en vogue thinking from Rome over the last six years: Catholicism is nothing special, it is just one of many equally legitimate religions, it is rigid to think that only one Church has the full truth, Jesus primarily wanted to rescue people from material poverty, etc. It just seems oh so much more enlightened and educated to throw away all those traditional ways of Catholic teaching these days.