Did Jesus Really Son of God/God or The Prophet

[planten]

Cascherman:
Why do you believe Muhammad was actually telling the truth about what he said? He could, conceivably, be totally making it all up, right?

**If one talks like that then there will be no messengers of Allah. No trust in any one. Muhammad lived a long life. He faced all challenges of the people of his times. People in his times did not agree that he was a messenger of Allah. But he proved it at that time. It is a bit too late to speak about it now.

Why not we speak about Jesus that he was false because his people (Jews) rejected him and he could not prove a word about anything. please keep those things in mind before discussing any doubts about other religions. That is “Do unto others as you would like to be done to yourself”.**

 

[planten]

Cascherman:
The problem with the Muhammad/Joseph Smith style revelation is it puts all the trust in that one persons sanity. Jesus had at all times, at least 3 of his apostles witnessing his various miracles and revelations, most of the time he had all 12 with a crowd. Muhammad revelation was entirely up to himself with no witnesses, so he could manufacture it without fear of someone claiming what he says is false.

So I don’t believe this to be true:

**Sorry, I missed the above part of your post. Muhammad had the real revelations and his friends witnessed his many miracles. Jesus had the revealtion because he was only a prophet of God. A god will not get any revelation. Do you note it please?

Jesus got the revelation but did any one of his friends see the revelation coming down to Jesus. NO. And he never got the words of God committed to writing. Did he?? NO.

If Jesus had a crowd with him, so did muhammad. In the end time, Muhammad had more than 1,24,000 men in one gathering. I do not know about Joseph smith. And then your limiting the mercy of God to only one race is very bad. God is the God of all creation. Not just the God of the Jews. Please think. Are you right? I do not know what the Jews think about it. I hope thay are not like you. **

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Muhammad lived a long life. He faced all challenges of the people of his times. People in his times did not agree that he was a messenger of Allah. But he proved it at that time…

How did he prove it?

… Muhammad had the real revelations and his friends witnessed his many miracles…

What miracles?

 

[Angelos]

**Sorry, I missed the above part of your post. Muhammad had the real revelations and his friends witnessed his many miracles. Jesus had the revealtion because he was only a prophet of God. A god will not get any revelation. Do you note it please? **

I really wonder when you Muslims will understand that believing in Jesus and His miracles does not entail belief in Mohammad! There has always been false prophets, and IMPO Mohammad was one of them. Answer my question honestly: Do you believe that the founder of Bahaism (Bahaullah) was a messenger of Allah? The followers of Bahaullah believe in both the Koran and Mohammad, so you must do the same.

BTW we do not believe that Jesus got revelation from His father since He Himself is the expression and revelation of God’s wisdom through His miraculous birth/incarnation. So stop judging Christianity from an Islamic viewpoint! Your judgments are not valid and reasonable since they are not based on the NT, but on the inaccurate recordings of a man that lived 550 years after Jesus!

**
Jesus got the revelation but did any one of his friends see the revelation coming down to Jesus. NO. And he never got the words of God committed to writing. Did he?? NO.**

Did God speak to Jesus as He spoke to Moses or the other prophets of the OT? NO. Did God the Father ask Jesus to get the Good News committed to writing? NO. Was Jesus an inept prophet who failed to teach people the true message? NO (Christian answer) YES (Islamic answer). Thanks for your posts: people can see how you Muslims insult Jesus for the sake of your Koran and false messenger Mohammad bin Abdallah.

**
If Jesus had a crowd with him, so did muhammad. In the end time, Muhammad had more than 1,24,000 men in one gathering. I do not know about Joseph smith. And then your limiting the mercy of God to only one race is very bad. God is the God of all creation. Not just the God of the Jews. Please think. Are you right? I do not know what the Jews think about it. I hope thay are not like you. **

You either play the ignorant or really do not know what the Koran says about Jews. I must therefore remind you that it is your Allah and his Koran that presents Jews as the elected race of humanity. It is again your Allah and his Koran that claims to have sent three of the written revelations to Jews. It is again your Allah and Koran that elevates Arabs at the expense of Jews by sending the supposedly final messenger to Arabs. Islam is only a religion and an ideology that steals the divine promise from Jews and grants it to Arabs for the sole purpose of making Mohammad a messenger. Islamic notion of prophecy has neither system nor consistency.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[tomshaikh]

He just doesn’t have the corroboration that Jesus has. Not to mention he wasn’t a Jew, and the fulfillment that Islam claims of Judaism was destined to come from with Judaism itself.

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Well you need to know my other thread which is known as “Family Tree Of Prophet” in which Abrahim/Ibrahim son Ismael descendant is Mohammad PBUH. And i guess you believe on Prophet Ismael as he was Abrahim Son and Isaac Brother. Same father blood but different mother blood.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=221765&page=4 Please see this thread and website in my Post #1

 

[Verisimilitude]

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Well you need to know my other thread which is known as “Family Tree Of Prophet” in which Abrahim/Ibrahim son Ismael descendant is Mohammad PBUH. And i guess you believe on Prophet Ismael as he was Abrahim Son and Isaac Brother. Same father blood but different mother blood.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=221765&page=4 Please see this thread and website in my Post #1

Ishmael was the child of a slave. Arab culture in the time of Mohammed just as it was for the people in the time of Abraham did not give the chidren of slaves by their masters the family name or rights. This is true today where people oppress others or practice slavery.

If the Arabs are decendents of Ishmael to give Mohammed such a claim as paternity to Abraham it still does not give Mohammed legitimacy to speak for God. The blessing of Abraham to Isaac passed the line of prophecy away from Ishmael forever and is why all legitimate prophets have been Jews. Ishamel was sent away with his mother before the blessing was given.

Do you accept this hadith?

Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and one is that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allah’s Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ). (Book #030, Hadith #5836)~Muslim

 

[tomshaikh]

Ishmael was the child of a slave. Arab culture in the time of Mohammed just as it was for the people in the time of Abraham did not give the chidren of slaves by their masters the family name or rights. This is true today where people oppress others or practice slavery.

If the Arabs are decendents of Ishmael to give Mohammed such a claim as paternity to Abraham it still does not give Mohammed legitimacy to speak for God. The blessing of Abraham to Isaac passed the line of prophecy away from Ishmael forever and is why all legitimate prophets have been Jews. Ishamel was sent away with his mother before the blessing was given.

Do you accept this hadith?

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My life sacrifice for hadith. But please donot make discrimination between Abrahim/Ibrahim son’s. They both are equal. And i guess bible teaches that everybody is equal. So it gotta be last seal of prophet from Abrahim descendent. And Allah/God said man those people are killing prophets those people are not serious about me so lets give them some lesson. And you know how Allah/God talks and warn about those people in Quran. I guess you knew it.

 

[Verisimilitude]

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My life sacrifice for hadith. But please donot make discrimination between Abrahim/Ibrahim son’s. They both are equal. And i guess bible teaches that everybody is equal. So it gotta be last seal of prophet from Abrahim descendent. And Allah/God said man those people are killing prophets those people are not serious about me so lets give them some lesson. And you know how Allah/God talks and warn about those people in Quran. I guess you knew it.

I know it.

Zaid was a slave and though Mohammed made free and adopted him his rights were takne away by allah and Mohammed so Mohammed could marry his wife. Ishmael and Isaac are not equal. Mohammed and Jesus are not equal.

 

[planten]

I don’t know of anyone who will put their hand up and say ‘i worship Maryam’ (or should it be Mary).

So for this event to happen, God (as you see him) is obviously not talking about christians of today is He ?

In fact who is He talking about ?

mistake ???

small sect of Christians in Muhammads time ?

I just don’t see any reason why the Koran is the word of God.
i see plenty of reasons why it’s not.

If i am honest, i have to reject it then, and i do.

Should i be worried about what a book says that i have already rejected ?

That sounds nuts.

There are plenty of those books around including parts of the bible.

Should i worry about a book written 700 years after the incarnation of the Christ in another part of the world by non Jewish sources and without any witnesses about what Jesus is going to say sometime in the future ?

that would be doubly nuts.

there has to be a better arguement than that ?

Easy way to get away, to run away. That is not to believe something. By not believing, it will not disappear. The questions will be there. The book Quran is very much in the world. By denying it, nobody can get away.

 

[planten]

Like that,Muslims could deny the bible and Jesus. Would it help?? No. The best thing is to respect and admit the reality and discuss it gently.

 

[Verisimilitude]

If you deny them you deny Mohammed, but if you deny Mohammed you do not deny Jesus or the bible.

It is true the Quran denies the bible and Jesus as Catholic/Christians believe. There is nothing gentle or respectfull about that. Reality does not support Mohammed.

Think of Moses’s call who acted like a shepherd and did not conduct warfare but lead them away from Egypt after letting God show Himself by the plagues. The Jews saw the mountain Moses was on and he produced the Law on tablets.

Elijah and Isaiah did not make warfare but gave fare warning now proved true.

Jesus is not under the authority of Moses in a line of Prophets that Mohammed makes association with. There have been no legitiamte Prophets after Jesus. Even John Paul the Great or any Pope is not a prophet. That ended with Jesus.

Think of Mohammeds call. Satan (Iblis/Jinn) tricked him.
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #62)

Think about it.

 

[tomshaikh]

If you deny them you deny Mohammed, but if you deny Mohammed you do not deny Jesus or the bible.

It is true the Quran denies the bible and Jesus as Catholic/Christians believe. There is nothing gentle or respectfull about that. Reality does not support Mohammed.

Think of Moses’s call who acted like a shepherd and did not conduct warfare but lead them away from Egypt after letting God show Himself by the plagues. The Jews saw the mountain Moses was on and he produced the Law on tablets.

Elijah and Isaiah did not make warfare but gave fare warning now proved true.

Jesus is not under the authority of Moses in a line of Prophets that Mohammed makes association with. There have been no legitiamte Prophets after Jesus. Even John Paul the Great or any Pope is not a prophet. That ended with Jesus.

Think of Mohammeds call. Satan (Iblis/Jinn) tricked him.
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #62)

Think about it.

---

Hello,

The surah and verses you talk about you donot know the meaning man Al-Quran is away from mistakes. And in that Mohammad pbuh doesn’t say that. It is conversation with Allah/God and IBlis/Jinn. I think i have to make another thread for that that Quran is away from mistakes and i will right again what i used to write for signature that " It is not a matter for everyone to understands Al-Quran, Like in your typical matters you consult with consultant so consult Al-Quran with Consultant/Alim/Scholar of Al-Quran.

 

[Verisimilitude]

---

Hello,

The surah and verses you talk about you donot know the meaning man Al-Quran is away from mistakes. And in that Mohammad pbuh doesn’t say that. It is conversation with Allah/God and IBlis/Jinn. I think i have to make another thread for that that Quran is away from mistakes and i will right again what i used to write for signature that " It is not a matter for everyone to understands Al-Quran, Like in your typical matters you consult with consultant so consult Al-Quran with Consultant/Alim/Scholar of Al-Quran.

I believe you, it is an accurate thing revealed to Mohammed by the one who said it to God. Satan tempted Jesus in the desert. Jesus rejected him. He mocked Mohammed. Satan threw Mohammed to the ground three times and never said who he was to Mohammed after asking him to read what he could not. Mohammed wanted to kill himslef he was so afraid.

 

[ssg_B]

Your Right , I Was Just Trying To Help Are Muslim Friend , Using His Own Book “the Quran” To Understand That, Yes ,JESUS Is The Only Way To Heaven.The verses I used were not from the hadeeths, they were from the quran. I would highly recommend reading the Bible instead

 

[planten]

If you deny them you deny Mohammed, but if you deny Mohammed you do not deny Jesus or the bible.

It is true the Quran denies the bible and Jesus as Catholic/Christians believe. There is nothing gentle or respectfull about that. Reality does not support Mohammed.

Think of Moses’s call who acted like a shepherd and did not conduct warfare but lead them away from Egypt after letting God show Himself by the plagues. The Jews saw the mountain Moses was on and he produced the Law on tablets.

Elijah and Isaiah did not make warfare but gave fare warning now proved true.

Jesus is not under the authority of Moses in a line of Prophets that Mohammed makes association with. There have been no legitiamte Prophets after Jesus. Even John Paul the Great or any Pope is not a prophet. That ended with Jesus.

Think of Mohammeds call. Satan (Iblis/Jinn) tricked him.
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #62)

Think about it.

** WE all know that jesus was just another Israeli prophet. We see that in the bible NT too. He is preaching the Jewish law to the Jews in the bible NT. Jesus had not come for the christians. There were no christians at all.

The coming of Jesus was foretold in the bible OT. What for it was? Was it for the christians. No. Jews were waiting for their Messiah and Jesus was their Messiah. Will you deny any of that? Surely not possible at all.
What was the role of Jesus. Was he not being awaited by the Jews. And John the Baptist had come to clear the way of Jesus. Therefore , the Muslims know all about the real status of Jesus. He was nothing more than the last Israeli prophet.

That makes him under the command of Moses. He himself said that he had come to fulfil the law of moses and that law will remain intact.

I tried to see the verse 17:62 but I could not find anything as you meant. You please post the verse or give the verse number again. Then we will discuss who was tempted by the devil, Muhammad or Jesus.**

 

[planten]

I believe you, it is an accurate thing revealed to Mohammed by the one who said it to God. Satan tempted Jesus in the desert. Jesus rejected him. He mocked Mohammed. Satan threw Mohammed to the ground three times and never said who he was to Mohammed after asking him to read what he could not. Mohammed wanted to kill himslef he was so afraid.

**If you think that Muhammad was visited by the devil and not by any angel of God then you are far away from any sensible dialogue. You do have angels visiting your dear ones. You believe that. Why don’t you say that they were visited by the devil?

You are entirely wrong. Do you think that devil came to Muhammad to tell him all about the birth of Jesus?? About the purity of Mary? About the One God? And all about Moses and Jesus? You are not only highly mistaken but misled too, i.e. biased against the quran and Muhammad. We have no treatment for such illness.**

 

[inJESUS]

** WE all know that jesus was just another Israeli prophet. We see that in the bible NT too. He is preaching the Jewish law to the Jews in the bible NT. Jesus had not come for the christians. There were no christians at all.**

how can there be Christians if Christians are followers of CHRIST?

Jesus preached Jews and non-Jews.

The coming of Jesus was foretold in the bible OT. What for it was? Was it for the christians. No. Jews were waiting for their Messiah and Jesus was their Messiah.

 

[inJESUS]

If you think that Muhammad was visited by the devil and not by any angel of God then you are far away from any sensible dialogue. You do have angels visiting your dear ones. You believe that. Why don’t you say that they were visited by the devil?

if they were visited by someone who taught them what is different from the Bible, it is satan. The Bible says so when it mentions clearly that satan can distiguise in an angel of light to teach a different Bible.

 

[Angelos]

** WE all know that jesus was just another Israeli prophet. We see that in the bible NT too. He is preaching the Jewish law to the Jews in the bible NT. Jesus had not come for the christians. There were no christians at all.**

What about your beloved Mohammad? Did he come for Muslims? Absolutely NO! There were no Muslims in Mohammad’s time; this was why he bragged about being the first Muslim!

**
The coming of Jesus was foretold in the bible OT. What for it was? Was it for the christians. No. Jews were waiting for their Messiah and Jesus was their Messiah. Will you deny any of that? Surely not possible at all.**

I still wonder what this has to do with our debate. Besides, Christian means “a follower of Christ”. Whoever believes in the message of Christ and His Good News is called Christian. Should I make this any clearer?

**
What was the role of Jesus. Was he not being awaited by the Jews. And John the Baptist had come to clear the way of Jesus. Therefore , the Muslims know all about the real status of Jesus. He was nothing more than the last Israeli prophet.**

What is the logical relation between John the Baptist’s testimony for Jesus and the Islamic claims regarding Jesus’ personality??? You Muslims surprisingly need the Bible to infer the so-called real status of Jesus. Insufficient and inaccurate data about Jesus and His precursor in the Koran.

**
That makes him under the command of Moses. He himself said that he had come to fulfil the law of moses and that law will remain intact.**

The Koran rebuts this false claim:

Surah 3: 50 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.

According to the Koran, Jesus was given a new revelation and authority to abolish some parts of the Mosaic Law.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Verisimilitude]

** If you think that Muhammad was visited by the devil and not by any angel of God then you are far away from any sensible dialogue. You do have angels visiting your dear ones. You believe that. Why don’t you say that they were visited by the devil? **

I do think that and it makes more sense to believe Mohammed was visited by a demon/jinn/Satan/Iblees than by the Angel Gabriel.

When legitimate Angels visited Abraham and Mary and Joseph and others they generally announced for the people not to fear them.

Luke 1:30
Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Matthew 28:5
But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.

Genesis 15:1
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

** You are entirely wrong. Do you think that devil came to Muhammad to tell him all about the birth of Jesus?? About the purity of Mary? About the One God? And all about Moses and Jesus? You are not only highly mistaken but misled too, i.e. biased against the quran and Muhammad. We have no treatment for such illness. **

I am not the one mistaken or misled. You agree the spirit that beat up Mohammed made him very much afraid and did not say who he was when the first verses 96:1-3 was given?

(1) Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) … The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, “The angel caught me (forcefully) and **pressed me so hard **that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, ‘I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?’ Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.” (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah’s Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, “Cover me! Cover me!” They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, “I fear that something may happen to me.” … Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, …Khadija said to Waraqa, “Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!” Waraqa asked, “O my nephew! What have you seen?” Allah’s Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. … Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira’ sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. **I got afraid of him **and came back home and said, ‘Wrap me (in blankets).’ And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran): ‘O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!’ …(Book #1, Hadith #3)~Bukhari

Why didn’t Mohammed know it was an angel and why was he so afraid?

Satan said to God he would lead many astray. Satan tried to with Jesus, but Jesus was too strong and rightous to fall away. It was Satan that threw Mohammed to the ground and it was Satan who spoke many words to Mohammed. It is Satan that told Mohammed Jesus was not crucified and it is a lie.

The birth of Jesus and purity of Mary was not new to be revealed by Mohammed. The world already knew it. Satan did not have to say it to Mohammed because Mohammed already knew it, so Satan did not reveal anything but lies upon a truth.

That is a word pertaining to truth which a jinn snatches and throws into the ear of his friend, and makes an addition of one hundred lies to it. (Book #026, Hadith #5535)~Muslim