Did Jesus require penance?

[Duffy]

Someone has asked a question that I can’t find an easy answer to. It refers not to the institution of the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a whole, but specifically to the requirement of penance as a part of the Sacrament. Jesus promised, without penance, paradise to the thief on the cross, and He told the woman caught in adultery to “… go and sin no more…”; again, no penance. Why is penance so big a part of Catholic life, since Jesus didn’t always require it, and how did it start?

Thanks.
Duffy Tweedy

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Someone has asked a question that I can’t find an easy answer to. It refers not to the institution of the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a whole, but specifically to the requirement of penance as a part of the Sacrament. Jesus promised, without penance, paradise to the thief on the cross, and He told the woman caught in adultery to “… go and sin no more…”; again, no penance. Why is penance so big a part of Catholic life, since Jesus didn’t always require it, and how did it start?

Thanks.
Duffy Tweedy

Penance was part of Jewish practice. SO just because Jesus didn’t specifically give out penance after forgiving someone does not mean that they didn’t do penance voluntarily. There are instances where Jesus forgave or cured and told the person or persons to go and do something like wash in the river or pool or show yourself to the priests and elders.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Someone has asked a question that I can’t find an easy answer to. It refers not to the institution of the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a whole, but specifically to the requirement of penance as a part of the Sacrament. Jesus promised, without penance, paradise to the thief on the cross, and He told the woman caught in adultery to “… go and sin no more…”; again, no penance. Why is penance so big a part of Catholic life, since Jesus didn’t always require it, and how did it start?
Thanks.
Duffy Tweedy

Just because Jesus didnt require it 100% of the time, or even that it wasnt EXPLICITLY stated 100% of the time doesnt mean its not an important part of the Gospel.
Towards the start of His ministry Jesus made it clear:
7 He said therefore to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruits that befit repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” 10 And the multitudes asked him, “What then shall we do?” 11 And he answered them, “He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.” -Luke 3
When Jesus sent out His disciples to preach he said:
10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town. 13 "Woe to you, Chora’zin! woe to you, Beth-sa’ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. -Luke 10
Towards the end of Paul’s journey Paul says what he did at his conversion and mentioned this to a pagan king:
19 "Wherefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those at Damascus, then at Jerusalem and throughout all the country of
Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God and perform deeds worthy of their repentance. -Acts26
Also in other places where judgement is concerned:
4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Rev 2

 

[kleary]

Yes.

The good thief was granted absolution from Jesus yet Jesus did not free him from his cross. Jesus could have made it so the good thief would have been able to come down from his cross and escape his punishment- which would have been a victory for Luther and the Protestants!

Ken

 

[Liberian]

Duffy,

For what it’s worth, the thief on the cross may have received “baptism of desire” when Jesus told him “this day you will be with me in Paradise.” Baptism and reconciliation are two different kettles of fish.

I can’t speak for the woman caught in adultery, although I see that other posters have done so quite well.

• Liberian

 

[scriabin]

As a Catholic who received the sacrament of Baptism as an adult, I was not required to perform penance afterwards because Baptism (and I’m assuming Baptism of Desire is included) washes away both eternal punishment and temporal punishment.

Now when I go to Confession I receive eternal forgiveness but I need to perform a temporal penance.

Maybe this would apply to the thief on the cross.

 

[demerzel85]

Someone has asked a question that I can’t find an easy answer to. It refers not to the institution of the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a whole, but specifically to the requirement of penance as a part of the Sacrament. Jesus promised, without penance, paradise to the thief on the cross, and He told the woman caught in adultery to “… go and sin no more…”; again, no penance. Why is penance so big a part of Catholic life, since Jesus didn’t always require it, and how did it start?

Thanks.
Duffy Tweedy

Lets just take a tour of the Gospels…
**
Matthew 3:2 -** And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.
Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
**
Matthew 11:20 -** Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.
Matthew 11:21 - Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.
**
Matthew 12:41 - **The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here.

Luke 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Luke 5:32 - I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance.

Luke 10:13 - Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida. For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Luke 11:32 - The men of Ninive shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas; and behold more than Jonas here.

Luke 13:3 - No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 - No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Luke 15:7 - I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.
Luke 15:10 - So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance.

Luke 16:30 - But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

Luke 17:3 - Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him.

Luke 24:47 - And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[chrisb]

Yes.

The good thief was granted absolution from Jesus yet Jesus did not free him from his cross. Jesus could have made it so the good thief would have been able to come down from his cross and escape his punishment- which would have been a victory for Luther and the Protestants!

Ken

Correct me if I am off base here but I always thought that the Thiefs suffering on the cross with Jesus was his penance?

Am I wrong?

 

[ttg]

I agree. Even after being forgiven of all sins the thief was still forced to suffer on the cross alongside Jesus.

 

[Duffy]

Thanks, everybody. Very interesting and useful. The question came from an evangelical who seems to be inquiring sincerely about the Catholic Church, so I wanted to get this right. As always with evangelicals, the scripture references will be invaluable. And I love the observation that since the good thief was already hanging on a cross, he’s obviously doing serious penance–and Jesus didn’t release him from his punishment. Rather like John Paul II forgiving his would-be assassin, but not demanding that he be released from jail.
–Duffy

 

[Michael_G]

Lets just take a tour of the Gospels…

Matthew 3:2 - And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.
Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 11:20 - Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.
Matthew 11:21 - Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

**Matthew 12:41 - **The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here.

Luke 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Luke 5:32 - I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance.

Luke 10:13 - Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida. For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Luke 11:32 - The men of Ninive shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas; and behold more than Jonas here.

Luke 13:3 - No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5 - No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

.

I need to divide this into two parts

Part I
I might point out that a point of clarification is necessary here, since the translation you are using here with the word penance comes from the Douay Rheims Bible. All other Catholic Bibles use the word repent here in place of the word penance, and all Protestant Bibles use the word repent instead of penance. Mind you I do believe Jeromes latin Vulgate and the Douay Rheims are correct in the translation to use penance nevertheless all the Catholic Bibles use repent instead. The best explaination for what is occuring here was done by a protestant. It goes like this:

There were several instances in the 16th Century where the traditional Latin vocabulary used by St. Jerome in the Vulgate was challenged based on the grammar and vocabulary in the Greek New Testament. Most of this were minor quibbles of no great import, but some were used by prots to question Catholic teaching and practice.

One of the important challenges were the following:

1. The translation of “metanoeo” as "paenitentiam agite"

The Greek verb “metanoeo" comes from two other Greek words: meta (change) & noos (mind). The most accurate rendering into English of the meaning of this word would be “to repent.” The implication was that at some point in **time someone **would change their mind about a past action and regret having done it. There was no simple Latin equivalent of this Greek term and so the Vulgate used the phrase "paenitentiam agite"which in Latin means "do penance.” The idea of “penance” in Latin carried the connotation of regret and sorrow for past actions but went further in that it also implied the performing of acts of reparation and mortification. By having Jesus say that his followers had to “do penance and believe the Gospel” (Mark 1:15) it **implied that they needed to perform acts of mortification (fasting, self-denial, wearing a hair shirt, self flagellation) or reparation (restoring loss goods, compensating victims) , as conditions for the forgiveness of sins. **

The prots in the 16th Century claimed that the word metanoeo carried no such implication and that all that was needed was a genuine sense of sorrow for sin. Certain radicals – typified today by some Dispensationalists – even stated that sorrow for sin was not needed. They claimed that repentance merely meant that you intellectually changed the way you thought from that moment forwards without any reference to past actions. Those were “covered over” by Christ and hence forgotten by God.

 

[Michael_G]

Lets just take a tour of the Gospels…

Matthew 3:2 - And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance.
Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 11:20 - Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.
Matthew 11:21 - Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes.

**Matthew 12:41 - **The men of Ninive shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold a greater than Jonas here.

Luke 3:8 - Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Luke 24:47 - And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Part II
Technically, the prots were right. The words “metaneo” and "paenitentiam agite"are not exact equivalents. But they forgot that the NT uses Greek words in a distinctly Hebraic way and that they must be understood in the context of a Hebrew idiom. The word for “repent” in OT Hebrew was "nacham" which has the following connotations according to Strong’s Concordance:

Nacham - to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted

a) (Niphal)

1. to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
2. to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
3. to comfort oneself, be comforted
4. to comfort oneself, ease oneself

b) (Piel) to comfort, console

c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled

d) (Hithpael)

1. to be sorry, have compassion
2. to rue, repent of
3. to comfort oneself, be comforted
4. to ease oneself

As you can see, **the OT concept included sorrow, grief , compassion, and acts to comfort others and be comforted oneself. Repentance was not merely a passive act of regret nor merely a change of mind. As such, St. Jerome’s choice of "do penance"had the wider context of the OT meaning in mind and we need to appreciate that.
**
In later rabbinical theology, the term “teshuvah” (turning) would be used for repentance. It would be defined by the Talmud as a turning towards God and a turning away from one’s sins. It also meant a turning towards one’s sins as something to contemplate and regret: the opposite of moral denial. St. Thomas Aquinas was aware of this rabbinical teaching and in his Summa Theologiae he has the turnings towards God and towards/away from sin as two of the four results of the grace of justification. (The other two were the forgiveness of sin and the infusion of the new life of grace.)

The Rabbis were not heavily into acts of mortification. many of these practices were unique to Christians who wished to imitate their Lord in his suffering for mankind on the cross. Nevertheless, repentance in “sack cloth and ashes” was a Jewish practice advocated in both Testaments(e.g., Daniel 9:3, Matthew 11:21Matt 11:21 they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. , Luke 10:13).
If one steals from someone, or damages another’s property willfully or neglectfully, is it enough to have true sorrow and resolve not to do it again? Or is something more required such as restitution!
In summary, the issue here was whether Greek grammar or the Biblical idiom should guide the translation. The prots opted for the former while St. Jerome and the Catholic Tradition opted for the latter.

 

[demerzel85]

The prots opted for the former while St. Jerome and the Catholic Tradition opted for the latter.

Ah and when did St Jerome translate and when did the Protestants come into existance? St Jerome spoke in Greek, Latin and most probably Hebrew as well. NONE of the Protestant translators could. St Jerome’s Version stood unchallenged for more than a millenia until the Deformation era. If St Jerome’s understanding of the text was incorrect or there was an equal alternative, we would have heard of vigourous debates between the Church Fathers and the alternate would have been taken into consideration as well. The use of the word ‘penance’ unites OT and NT concepts of the acts of reperation and true contrition. And well if one looks seriously at modern English Scripture translations, most of them are sub-standard at best.

 

[Michael_G]

Ah and when did St Jerome translate and when did the Protestants come into existance? St Jerome spoke in Greek, Latin and most probably Hebrew as well. NONE of the Protestant translators could. St Jerome’s Version stood unchallenged for more than a millenia until the Deformation era. If St Jerome’s understanding of the text was incorrect or there was an equal alternative, we would have heard of vigourous debates between the Church Fathers and the alternate would have been taken into consideration as well. The use of the word ‘penance’ unites OT and NT concepts of the acts of reperation and true contrition. And well if one looks seriously at modern English Scripture translations, most of them are sub-standard at best.

You will not get any argument from me on what you are pointing out. If you noticed I had to divide the explaination into two posts and the first post I pointed out that I believed Jerome is right. I only point this all out because some Protestant or “Catholic” will go home to read their Bibles and not find the word penance there, none of the Catholic Bibles except the Douey Rheims uses the word penance: without explaination people would presume that you made up your own translation or that it is simply wrong.

 

[demerzel85]

You will not get any argument from me on what you are pointing out. If you noticed I had to divide the explaination into two posts and the first post I pointed out that I believed Jerome is right. I only point this all out because some Protestant or “Catholic” will go home to read their Bibles and not find the word penance there, none of the Catholic Bibles except the Douey Rheims uses the word penance: without explaination people would presume that you made up your own translation or that it is simply wrong.

Well modern versions of the Bible these days are seriously more appropriately call mistranslations anyway. I’m not a DRV-onlyist but more often than not one finds substandard work by the translators in the modern versions.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

This translation by St. Jerome is CRITICALY important!

If St. Jerome and the douay Rheims translation of the bible are correct THEN Jesus requires us to do penance! How could anyone be Protestant? Not doing penance would be not obeying Jesus!

Also how could anyone trust bible translations that do not say “do penance”?

Penance instead of repentance clinches the Douay Rheims as the best translation for me. I’m not saying that it is perfect–I will say this though–if it is correct about “doing penance” and all the other translations are wrong then it without a doubt should be used until it can be improved upon.

I believe the Douay Rheims could be improved–I just haven’t seen that happen yet.

 

[Veritas41]

Someone has asked a question that I can’t find an easy answer to. It refers not to the institution of the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a whole, but specifically to the requirement of penance as a part of the Sacrament. Jesus promised, without penance, paradise to the thief on the cross, and He told the woman caught in adultery to “… go and sin no more…”; again, no penance. Why is penance so big a part of Catholic life, since Jesus didn’t always require it, and how did it start?

Thanks.
Duffy Tweedy

Here’s a good article that gives a biblical overview of penance.
socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/03/biblical-overview-on-penance-purgatory.html

 

[Mintaka]

Plenty of Protestants do penance, make restitution, etc. They may not always call it that, or they may not associate it with forgiveness of sins, but they do it.

Heck, look at My Name Is Earl. That guy’s trying to get “good karma”, and what does he do? Acts of restitution and penance, making apologies and repentance, and a general search for grace and assurance that his sins have been forgiven.

A little too works-based and magical in his thinking, but he’s working on it…