Did Jesus Say he was God?

[patg]

TobyLue:

Denying Level 1 teaching makes one a heretic and thereby automatically excommunicated.

You need to go back and read this thread - no one, including me, has denied or even questioned the divinity of Jesus or the church’s teaching on it.

The question we are discussing is simply “Did Jesus himself SAY he was God?”

 

[TobyLue]

You need to go back and read this thread - no one, including me, has denied or even questioned the divinity of Jesus or the church’s teaching on it.

The question we are discussing is simply “Did Jesus himself SAY he was God?”

Going back through the thread I realize you never used the words “I deny that Jesus is God”. But again, some of your posts indicate that unless Jesus Himself uttered those word, you will not believe. They seem to indicate that you doubted that Jesus is God. Jesus did say he was God in certain ways, but not the exact words that you are looking for. Maybe this thread should have been titled “Where in scripture are these exact words from Jesus ’ I, Jesus am God’”. It would have been a very, very short thread.
Remember, people speak not only through their words but actions and how one say things. My wife does not have to tell me with exact words “I Love You” every day, but simply by her actions I know she does. Jesus proved his divininty in many ways and I guess that what everybody here was trying to say.
However, if you will look there were some, especially a post by Bill A who did claim to be a good Catholic and denied Jesus as God. I posted for their benefit what the Church has to say.
God Bless…

BTW, do you believe Jesus is God?

 

[whowantsumadebo]

I think that the question had to do with how valuable the new testament is as preserving the “actual words” of Jesus, and not the words the authors “inserted into the text”.Basically, in all likeliness, the overwhelming New Testament and Extra-biblical evidence would suggest that Jesus himself did claim to be God.
In addition, it would seem a bit wacky for the apostles and their successors to prop Jesus up as the God-Man in the context of Jewish Monotheism.
I just realized I don’t write as well I thought I did.

 

[patg]

TobyLue:

Going back through the thread I realize you never used the words “I deny that Jesus is God”. But again, some of your posts indicate that unless Jesus Himself uttered those words, you will not believe.

Well, I tried hard to stick to the question and not color it with either religious or personal beliefs. I don’t think that one should base any such belief on specific words or events from the gospels as they are not history as we know it and were written after belief in the divinity was established. Thus they tend to reflect that belief and the writer’s faith rather than history. That’s why I mentioned that most scholars discount the many statements in John about divinity - it is far removed from early history and is the product of a very highly developed Christology.

They seem to indicate that you doubted that Jesus is God. Jesus did say he was God in certain ways, but not the exact words that you are looking for.

Well, I agree that the authors of the gospels wrote with the constant intention of expressing their belief that Jesus was God and that there are many examples of them using words and actions to emphasize that.

Maybe this thread should have been titled “Where in scripture are these exact words from Jesus ’ I, Jesus am God’”. It would have been a very, very short thread.

That’s how I interpreted the “Did Jesus himself say…” part of the question.

Remember, people speak not only through their words but actions and how one say things. My wife does not have to tell me with exact words “I Love You” every day, but simply by her actions I know she does. Jesus proved his divinity in many ways and I guess that what everybody here was trying to say.

I agree that the authors demonstrated his divinity in many ways.

However, if you will look there were some, especially a post by Bill A who did claim to be a good Catholic and denied Jesus as God. I posted for their benefit what the Church has to say.
God Bless…

BTW, do you believe Jesus is God?

I was brought up to believe that but now I’m not sure. Something certainly made the early followers believe it and I guess I’m searching for that “something”. I do think that following the teachings of Jesus is what is important - much more important than believing in divinity or miracles or walking on water, etc

 

[Jimmy_B]

patg:

Well, I tried hard to stick to the question and not color it with either religious or personal beliefs. (1) I don’t think that one should base any such belief on specific words or events from the gospels as they are not history as we know it and were written after belief in the divinity was established. Thus they tend to reflect that belief and the writer’s faith rather than history. That’s why I mentioned that most scholars discount the many statements in John about divinity - it is far removed from early history and is the product of a very highly developed Christology …
(2) Well, I agree that the authors of the gospels wrote with the constant intention of expressing their belief that Jesus was God and that there are many examples of them using words and actions to emphasize that…
I was brought up to believe that but now I’m not sure.
(3)Something certainly made the early followers believe it and I guess I’m searching for that “something”.(4) I do think that following the teachings of Jesus is what is important - much more important than believing in divinity or miracles or walking on water, etc

Statement:
(1)* I don’t think that one should base any such belief on specific words or events from the gospels as they are not history*

Response:

**

Colossians
Chapter 2
8 See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ **

**

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
****590 Only the divine identity of Jesus’ person can justify so absolute a claim as “He who is not with me is against me”; and his saying that there was in him “something greater than Jonah,. . . greater than Solomon”, something “greater than the Temple”; his reminder that David had called the Messiah his Lord,371 and his affirmations, “Before Abraham was, I AM”, and even "I and the Father are one."372
**

 

[Jimmy_B]

**patg, **
Statement:
(2) *Well, I agree that the authors of the gospels wrote with the constant intention *

(3) *Something certainly made the early followers believe it and I guess I’m searching for that “something”. *

Response:
**
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
****II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

Statement:
(4) I do think that following the teachings of Jesus is what is important - much more important than believing in divinity or miracles or walking on water, etc

Response:
**
**
Matthew
Chapter 18
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

2 Timothy
Chapter 3
14 But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it
**

 

[Jimmy_B]

whowantsumadebo:

I think that the question had to do with how valuable the new testament is as preserving the “actual words” of Jesus, and not the words the authors “inserted into the text”.Basically, in all likeliness, the overwhelming New Testament and Extra-biblical evidence would suggest that Jesus himself did claim to be God.
In addition, it would seem a bit wacky for the apostles and their successors to prop Jesus up as the God-Man in the context of Jewish Monotheism.
I just realized I don’t write as well I thought I did.

I agree whowantsumadebo, and I think some of the arguments on this thread are “a bit wacky”.

 

[Mathetes007]

patg:

Yes, that was the original question.

That’s what I have been saying all along - I’m glad someone finally agrees with me. Jesus did not go around saying he was God.

Patg,

You are correct. Jesus did not explicitly go around saying “I am God.” That he will do at His second coming as Judge. While on earth, He stated it in ways (vieled, implied, etc.) that carried to their logical conclusions reveal Him to be God. Many times He came very close to doing so with His followers. However, He needed them, as well as us, to draw that faith and belief from the heart. That confession must be made with our lips coming from our hearts. It is not simply a matter of repeating something that was written down but requires us to open ourselves to what the Spirit is saying to us in Scripture.

 

[Jimmy_B]

---

Mathetes007
Regular Member

Mathetes007 - Your Quote;

Patg,

You are correct. Jesus did not explicitly go around saying “I am God.” That he will do at His second coming as Judge. While on earth, He stated it in ways (veiled, implied, etc.) that carried to their logical conclusions reveal Him to be God. Many times He came very close to doing so with His followers. However, He needed them, as well as us, to draw that faith and belief from the heart. That confession must be made with our lips coming from our hearts. It is not simply a matter of repeating something that was written down but requires us to open ourselves to what the Spirit is saying to us in Scripture.

Mathetes007,

You are correct in agreeing with Patg, when you wrote “Jesus did not explicitly go around saying ‘I am God”. Jesus was humble and good. He didn’t “go around” and “brag” about his divinity. However, I have to respectfully disagree with your comment, that He stated it in ways,* veiled*, implied, etc. that carried to their logical conclusions reveal Him to be God.

He did more then that. Jesus did in fact directly stated his divinity.
**
**

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
****590 Only the divine identity of Jesus’ person can justify so absolute a claim as “He who is not with me is against me”; and his saying that there was in him “something greater than Jonah,. . . greater than Solomon”, something “greater than the Temple”; his reminder that David had called the Messiah his Lord,371 and his affirmations, “Before Abraham was, I AM”, and even "I and the Father are one."372

---

I’m not going to repeat all of the bible verses in this post that supports this position, they are all listed on this thread. My question is, do you think the Catechism of the Catholic Church, specifically #590, is incorrect? You might be confusing the beautiful and poetic way in which Jesus spoke with “veiled” speech.

God Bless.

 

[patg]

My question is, do you think the Catechism of the Catholic Church, specifically #590, is incorrect?

God Bless.
I don’t think that the conclusion is incorrect - in other words, I’m not here to argue the divinity of Jesus.

I do, however, think it is very questionable to rely so heavily on quotes from John’s gospel. John is a very late document written by someone with a very highly developed Christology. It has a significant tendency towards gnosticism and Greek philosophy. It presents a Jesus far removed and totally different than that of the much earlier and probably more historical synoptic gospels. It also contains long speeches (with all the “I am” sayings) which could not have been remembered word for word over generations. And if these speeches were so well known as to be exactly remembered, why do none of the other writings (written much earlier) mention them?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Patg,

**
I don’t think that the conclusion (CCC 590) is incorrect - in other words, I’m not here to argue the divinity of Jesus
**

CCC 590 Isn’t limited to supporting the divinity of Jesus; it goes directly to the question that I have posted in this thread “Did Jesus say he was God?”

CCC 590states:

**
“Only the divine identity of Jesus’ person can justify so absolute a claim”

**

**CCC 590 then goes on to say the way Jesus, himself, using his own words to “justify so absolute a claim” regarding his divinity. **

CCC 590 uses quotes of Jesus to justify so absolutely his (Jesus’) claim of divinity. You might to want take another look a CCC 590.

**
**
**CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
**590 Only the divine identity of Jesus’ person can justify so absolute a claim as “He who is not with me (Jesus) is against me”; and his (Jesus) saying that there was in him “something greater than Jonah,. . . greater than Solomon”, something “greater than the Temple”; **his **(Jesus’) reminder that David had called the Messiah his Lord,371 and his (Jesus’) affirmations, “Before Abraham was, I AM”, **and even **(Jesus stating) "I and the Father are one."372

 

[whowantsumadebo]

John is a very late document written by someone with a very highly developed Christology. It has a significant tendency towards gnosticism and Greek philosophy.-I can’t fix it! me dumb.

That is actually quite debatable. Remember that Paul has an extremeley high Christology, writing perhaps 20 years or so after the Lord’s accension. Since it would be stupid to assume that Paul was making all that stuff up as he wrote, we can surmise that his religion goes back much farther, well into a few years after Jesus’ death.
In addition, there are certain geographically and historically accurate details in John’s Gospel that would suggest that it was, in fact, written much earlier than the end of the 1st century. It is possible that at least some of its material finds a home more closer to the historical Jesus than the synoptics; I know it’s a strech, but it’s possible. It’ll take a bit for me to bust it out.
Whowantsuma debo?

 

[Jimmy_B]

**John 13

13 You call me ‘teacher’ and ‘master,’ and rightly so, for indeed I AM**.

 

[juliamajor]

the number three has a multiplicity of meanings in biblical numerology and it is used many many time throughout the entire bible -three -a number of perfection and the divine, and waiting for divine intervention, it the number of unity,accomplishment and the universe. No need to look to others sources. Plus other subtleties(-Semitic and oriental literature are way more subtle then the west) Take the storm on the Lake in Mark- Jesus controls the storm- who controls the weather and nature in the OT? God-connection is subtle but it is there.- there are others but it takes me so long to type that I neither have the time or inclination to do so.Just know that culture has a lot to do with how Jesus expressed himself- culture of that time period which we can only make guesses about. seems likely that in jewish culture when God’s name wasn’t even spoken Jesus would have a heck of a hard sell among his own people.God taking on flesh- becoming a lousy cruddy human? Muslims have a very similar attitude toward God and His power-God would not demean himself by becoming humanThe idea is really disgusting to them.

 

[Jimmy_B]

---

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

**
590 Only the divine identity of Jesus’ person can justify so absolute a claim as “He who is not with me is against me”; and his saying that there was in him “something greater than Jonah,. . . greater than Solomon”, something “greater than the Temple”; his reminder that David had called the Messiah his Lord,371 and his affirmations, “Before Abraham was, I AM”, and even "I and the Father are one."372
**

 

[Jimmy_B]

Did Jesus *himself *say (claim) he was God?

I’ve heard people say, “I know that Jesus and God are one and the same, but Jesus* himself never said he was God”.*

John 6
40 (Jesus said) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

John 7

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

22 Manywill say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your (Jesus) name?”

John 8

19 So they said to him, “Where is your father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”

23 He (Jesus) said to them, "You belong to what is below*, I belong to what is above*. You belong to thisworld, but I do not belong to this world.

24 “That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

John 13

13 You call me ‘teacher’ and ‘master,’ and rightly so, for indeed I AM.

Exodus 3
14 God replied, “I am who am.” Then he added, “This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you.” (I am who am: this utterance is the source of the word Yahweh, the proper personal name of the God of Israel)

“I am” repeated by Jesus (8) times in the Gospel of John:

1- I am the bread of life (Jn.6:35)
2- *I am the light of the world *(Jn.8:12)
3- I am the gate (Jn.10:9)
4- I am the good shepherd (Jn.10:11.
5- I am the resurrection (Jn.11:25)
6- I am the way and the truth and the life (Jn.14:6)
7- I am the true vine (Jn.15:1)
8- *Before Abraham was, I am *(Jn.8:58)