Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

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Why wouldn’t the Bible state that he traveled to Rome, if Peter was the rock?
Peter did travel to Rome.

But your question does not make sense. What is the correlation between Peter being Rock and Peter being in Rome.
Funny it mentions that Paul traveled to Rome in Acts 27 and that he arrives in Rome in Acts 28 and he wasn’t even the rock?
So you think all the movements of the Apostles are all recorded in Acts? For historical facts such as these, there are other sources that attest to the fact that Peter was in Rome. It does not need to be in Acts for it to be true that Peter was in Rome.
If Peter did travel to Rome, why didn’t he mention it in his writtings?
I gave a link 2 posts before this. I do hope you take the time to read it. That will answer your questions for you.
 
Hi Rev Kevin,

I have been thinking about your signature here.

" ASK NOT WHAT GOD CAN DO FOR YOU :tsktsk: BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR GOD :yyeess:

What can I do for God? Would that not be somewhat like a baby in the womb asking the Mother what can I do for you?

What can a mere creature do for his Creator? Absolutely nothing. He created us from nothing after all. How can we presume to do something for Him then.

What does He wants us to do? To bend our wills to His that we may do His will.

We have to be careful that we do not end up working for God when we should be doing His will. There’s a huge difference.
 
The Church becomes a known link with Matthew, Rock, Keys etc. And there relates back to the prophecy of Isaiah being complete.

But Christs Ministry no doubt started much earlier. Sermon on the Mount comes to mind just off the top of my head. Christs words to Peter become significant in Matthew. He is not referring to anything else but His ministry.

Peter was in Rome, he is buried in Rome. Do you think he taught in Alexandria and then they bought the body to Rome for burial?
 
Hi Rev Kevin,

I have been thinking about your signature here.

" ASK NOT WHAT GOD CAN DO FOR YOU :tsktsk: BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR GOD :yyeess:

What can I do for God? Would that not be somewhat like a baby in the womb asking the Mother what can I do for you?

What can a mere creature do for his Creator? Absolutely nothing. He created us from nothing after all. How can we presume to do something for Him then.

What does He wants us to do? To bend our wills to His that we may do His will.

We have to be careful that we do not end up working for God when we should be doing His will. There’s a huge difference.
*You make a good point Benedictus. If we achieve being “Poor in Spirit” it is when we realise that we can do nothing without God.

Having said that, rev kevin’s words could also mean that we, in turn, can co-operate with God. When we respond to God’s commands and his love, we are giving to God. We can offer our sufferings to God… So there is something we can “do for God”

God Bless all
:):):)*
 
I think Christ views the huge cathedrals, processions and ornate vestments in the same way as He viewed Mary’s pouring of the expensive perfume on His feet. God knows these things are done to glorify Him, and He does not have a problem with that. As for the scandals I think God does not approve of the actions of those who do not follow his Will but I don’t believe Christ is shocked by the fact that His Church will have to face attacks both from outside and within its walls. Christ did said say Himself that the gates of hell would not kill the Church and it hasn’t. Christ however did not say that hell wouldn’t try to take over His Church. Heck the devils attempt to ruin the Church has been happening since Christ founded it. One of his Apostles betrayed him for 33 pieces of silver, another denied Him three times, and all of them with the exception of John fled from Him during His Passion and crucifixion because they had a hard time accepting the cross (like many fallen away Catholics and non-catholic Christians), so we can see the Church has always been attacked by scandals.

As for the pagan influence I would have to ask you if you think everything that is not Christian is wrong? The Wise Men were pagan Kings who came to worship Christ because their religions foretold of Him. The search for God is in itself a good thing and in other religions there are parts of truth in them but NOT the fullness of truth. It’s not so much that other religions are wrong as it is that other religions only have parts of the truth and not all of it. Yet if they have parts of the truth why wouldnt they be likewsie apart of the Chruch that has the fullness of truth?

As for what would Jesus think about His followers giving adulation and honor to the Vicar he established on earth? I would say He is pretty happy about this, and I would also say if humble and pious women such as Mother Teresa didnt have a problem with it and understood the need for the Pope then why shouldnt we? The Popes position is one of great suffering and sacrifice. It is not a position of lazyness and gratification. The Pope serves Christ and then every Catholic and Christian in the whole world including Mother Teresa.

I think Christ loves His Catholic Church that he established and that he would like to see more of his followers practice the Faith He established and contiunes to protect. I think he would also like others to see the humility is a virtue that must be practiced in all states of life and offices.

In short yes I think your wrong but only because you dont know any better my friend.
Excellent post, Common sense at work , thank you. But I am afraid we are trying to teach a couple of anti Apostolic Church Christians who come with closed minds, Peace, Carlan
 
*You make a good point Benedictus. If we achieve being “Poor in Spirit” it is when we realise that we can do nothing without God.

Having said that, rev kevin’s words could also mean that we, in turn, can co-operate with God. When we respond to God’s commands and his love, we are giving to God. We can offer our sufferings to God… So there is something we can “do for God”

God Bless all
:):):)*
Correct, and so the process then becomes not “I’m suffering Lord, please help me” but “I’m suffering Lord and I give it to you to redeem as you see fit”. Then, there the Grace of the Lord becomes your comfort.

Yes, others with no hope become saved in the process. Thus the name Redeemer. Its an aspect which is so often lost and forgotten in many denominations of Christianity. And it is in essense most important.
 
I think Christ views the huge cathedrals, processions and ornate vestments in the same way as He viewed Mary’s pouring of the expensive perfume on His feet. God knows these things are done to glorify Him, and He does not have a problem with that. As for the scandals I think God does not approve of the actions of those who do not follow his Will but I don’t believe Christ is shocked by the fact that His Church will have to face attacks both from outside and within its walls. Christ did said say Himself that the gates of hell would not kill the Church and it hasn’t. Christ however did not say that hell wouldn’t try to take over His Church. Heck the devils attempt to ruin the Church has been happening since Christ founded it. One of his Apostles betrayed him for 33 pieces of silver, another denied Him three times, and all of them with the exception of John fled from Him during His Passion and crucifixion because they had a hard time accepting the cross (like many fallen away Catholics and non-catholic Christians), so we can see the Church has always been attacked by scandals.

As for the pagan influence I would have to ask you if you think everything that is not Christian is wrong? The Wise Men were pagan Kings who came to worship Christ because their religions foretold of Him. The search for God is in itself a good thing and in other religions there are parts of truth in them but NOT the fullness of truth. It’s not so much that other religions are wrong as it is that other religions only have parts of the truth and not all of it. Yet if they have parts of the truth why wouldnt they be likewsie apart of the Chruch that has the fullness of truth?

As for what would Jesus think about His followers giving adulation and honor to the Vicar he established on earth? I would say He is pretty happy about this, and I would also say if humble and pious women such as Mother Teresa didnt have a problem with it and understood the need for the Pope then why shouldnt we? The Popes position is one of great suffering and sacrifice. It is not a position of lazyness and gratification. The Pope serves Christ and then every Catholic and Christian in the whole world including Mother Teresa.

I think Christ loves His Catholic Church that he established and that he would like to see more of his followers practice the Faith He established and contiunes to protect. I think he would also like others to see the humility is a virtue that must be practiced in all states of life and offices.

In short yes I think your wrong but only because you dont know any better my friend.
EXCELLENT post!!! Amen!
 
Ha, yes, but if you continue to visit here with an open mind, the truth will set you free. You will no longer be able to tell yourself the lies.🙂
 
I think Christ views the huge cathedrals, processions and ornate vestments in the same way as He viewed Mary’s pouring of the expensive perfume on His feet. God knows these things are done to glorify Him, and He does not have a problem with that…
Thank you for saying this. 👍 Lots of people speculate about the thoughts of Jesus concerning the cathedrals, vestments, ornate paintings and sculptures. It is to glorify God and is therefore GOOD. If only protestants realized they are talking as Judas did.
 
Rev Kevin,

You do realize that St. Paul and St. Peter were martyred in Rome right? I guess they simply happened to be there when they were killed for being Christian :rolleyes: They were doing God’s work and conquered the Roman empire with their blood.
 
Why wouldn’t the Bible state that he traveled to Rome, if Peter was the rock?
Funny it mentions that Paul traveled to Rome in Acts 27 and that he arrives in Rome in Acts 28 and he wasn’t even the rock?
If Peter did travel to Rome, why didn’t he mention it in his writtings?
Wouldn’t it be important seeing he went there to start the church?
I don’t think the Catholic Church necessarily started in Rome. As I and another poster who quoted St Ignatius stated, the church was born of the organization Christ created, where his apostles traveled and started congregations. This was the beginning of the Catholic Church. Peter ended up in Rome and it became the center of the Catholic Church, that body of congregations all around the Mediterranean, but Christ started the Catholic church In Jerusalem and his apostles built the Catholic Church mandated by god.

The church existed before the first Christian ever stepped foot in Rome, in my opinion.

I can’t recall ever reading anywhere that Rome HAD to be the center of the Catholic Church. It is just where Peter ended up and Christ had said that Peter would lead and then we get into the succession.
 
Where in Scripture does is say anything about Martin Luther or John Calvin? Where in Scripture does it say divide the church into thousands of pieces. You see catholics can point to John 21:15-17 and Matthew 16:17-19 and others besides. So far you have argued over semantics, but can you point to single line of scripture where it says Martin and John break the church to pieces?
Nice dodge but you failed to answer the question.
 
Nice dodge but you failed to answer the question.
So its your assertion that since there is no specific biblical reference to Peter being in Rome that we should deny the historical evidence that he was actually there and furthermore the roman catholic church is not valid based on these “facts”?
 
Take a moment and think about this.
Of all the worlds religions. What religion have the fullness of the Word?
Of course it’s the Catholic Church founded by Jesus himself.
 
Hi Rev Kevin,

I have been thinking about your signature here.

" ASK NOT WHAT GOD CAN DO FOR YOU :tsktsk: BUT WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR GOD :yyeess:

What can I do for God? Would that not be somewhat like a baby in the womb asking the Mother what can I do for you?

What can a mere creature do for his Creator? Absolutely nothing. He created us from nothing after all. How can we presume to do something for Him then.

What does He wants us to do? To bend our wills to His that we may do His will.

We have to be careful that we do not end up working for God when we should be doing His will. There’s a huge difference.
What can we do for God?
We can bring people to Him.
We can feed the hungry.
We can help the needy.
We can be good Christian modles to others.
We can strive not to si.
We can be Good Samaritans.
And the list goes on and on.
 
So its your assertion that since there is no specific biblical reference to Peter being in Rome that we should deny the historical evidence that he was actually there and furthermore the roman catholic church is not valid based on these “facts”?
First of all, there is no place in the New Testament where there is any hint or any record of any kind that Peter was in Rome. In 1 Peter 5:13, it tells us very plainly that he wrote that epistle from the city of Babylon [In Peters day Babylon was still a city and a territory—See Josephus, Antiquities, Book xv, Ch 2, 2. “The ancient city of Mesopotamia, an area which was then a center of pure and uncompromising Judiasim” p. 65, 1 Peter by A. M. Stibbs. ACT 2:9 tells us they were in the Pentecost crowd. “After the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 Babylonia became, and for centuries remained, a seat of Jewish Schools devoted to the study and interpretation of the law” Dictionary of the Bible, p. 72, by J. J. Davis]. This is far to the east of the Roman Empire and not in Rome which is in the western part of the Empire. This is where Peter apparently had much of his ministry among the many Jews scattered there from previous centuries. He was there preaching that the Messiah had come, that Jesus Christ was that promised Messiah, and that Jesus Christ was the only hope of salvation. He was there preaching to those people when he wrote the epistles of 1 and 2 Peter. He wrote to those who were in what is now Asia Minor or what is now modern Turkey. All of these districts that he mentions are in a little section of eastern Turkey. The New Testament gives no statement or hint whatever that Peter was ever in the City of Rome, the Capital of the Roman Empire in his day.

There is some groundless tradition that says Peter was in Rome. One problem with the tradition is that the tradition is full of errors, mistakes, things that are incorrect. If read parts of Josephus, all of the Apostolic Fathers, in English translation. The references are there but in the very context in which the references are found the whole thing was full of things that are contradictory to the New Testament. Therefore being contrary to the New Testament their evidence is worthless.

For instance in the Apostolic Fathers, in THE DIDACHE, or TEACHING OF THE APOSTLES we find a paragraph in which many people wish to use a statement there about Baptism. That reference to Baptism is found in a very short paragraph which contains things that are contradictory to the New Testament. Therefore we cannot give any weight to one little statement that people want to use to help them in their false idea of what Baptism is about. Now whether they are intentional or not is beside the point. The errors are there. So it is an unreliable piece of writing. There may be some things there that are interesting and some things that are helpful and there may be some things that are true, but it is unreliable [The Apostolic Fathers, translated by J. B. Lightfoot and edited and completed by J. R. Harmer, 1973 (rpt of 1891 edition), Grand Rapids: MI, Baker Book House. p. 126].

Josephus’ writings contain so much that is fanciful and even just plain ridiculous that a person has to try to pick out what is fact and what is fiction. You cannot just say Josephus said such and such and say that is a fact; that is true. No, you have to weigh the things that he says very carefully. Is it true? Are there other things in the history of that time that corroborates what he says. You cannot just take it because Josephus said it and say, “that’s a fact!” Many times he contradicts what the Bible says. When he gives the “History of the Jews”, the history of Israelite people, time and time again, he contradicts what the Old Testament says concerning the history of the Jewish people. So you have to be very careful when you read these writings. Old? Yes, they are. Josephus wrote around the time shortly after Christ lived. He probably died shortly after 100 AD, himself. So he was living in old times.
 
First of all, there is no place in the New Testament where there is any hint or any record of any kind that Peter was in Rome. In 1 Peter 5:13, it tells us very plainly that he wrote that epistle from the city of Babylon [In Peters day Babylon was still a city and a territory—See Josephus, Antiquities, Book xv, Ch 2, 2. “The ancient city of Mesopotamia, an area which was then a center of pure and uncompromising Judiasim” p. 65, 1 Peter by A. M. Stibbs. ACT 2:9 tells us they were in the Pentecost crowd. “After the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 Babylonia became, and for centuries remained, a seat of Jewish Schools devoted to the study and interpretation of the law” Dictionary of the Bible, p. 72, by J. J. Davis]. This is far to the east of the Roman Empire and not in Rome which is in the western part of the Empire. This is where Peter apparently had much of his ministry among the many Jews scattered there from previous centuries. He was there preaching that the Messiah had come, that Jesus Christ was that promised Messiah, and that Jesus Christ was the only hope of salvation. He was there preaching to those people when he wrote the epistles of 1 and 2 Peter. He wrote to those who were in what is now Asia Minor or what is now modern Turkey. All of these districts that he mentions are in a little section of eastern Turkey. The New Testament gives no statement or hint whatever that Peter was ever in the City of Rome, the Capital of the Roman Empire in his day.

There is some groundless tradition that says Peter was in Rome. One problem with the tradition is that the tradition is full of errors, mistakes, things that are incorrect. If read parts of Josephus, all of the Apostolic Fathers, in English translation. The references are there but in the very context in which the references are found the whole thing was full of things that are contradictory to the New Testament. Therefore being contrary to the New Testament their evidence is worthless.

For instance in the Apostolic Fathers, in THE DIDACHE, or TEACHING OF THE APOSTLES we find a paragraph in which many people wish to use a statement there about Baptism. That reference to Baptism is found in a very short paragraph which contains things that are contradictory to the New Testament. Therefore we cannot give any weight to one little statement that people want to use to help them in their false idea of what Baptism is about. Now whether they are intentional or not is beside the point. The errors are there. So it is an unreliable piece of writing. There may be some things there that are interesting and some things that are helpful and there may be some things that are true, but it is unreliable [The Apostolic Fathers, translated by J. B. Lightfoot and edited and completed by J. R. Harmer, 1973 (rpt of 1891 edition), Grand Rapids: MI, Baker Book House. p. 126].

Josephus’ writings contain so much that is fanciful and even just plain ridiculous that a person has to try to pick out what is fact and what is fiction. You cannot just say Josephus said such and such and say that is a fact; that is true. No, you have to weigh the things that he says very carefully. Is it true? Are there other things in the history of that time that corroborates what he says. You cannot just take it because Josephus said it and say, “that’s a fact!” Many times he contradicts what the Bible says. When he gives the “History of the Jews”, the history of Israelite people, time and time again, he contradicts what the Old Testament says concerning the history of the Jewish people. So you have to be very careful when you read these writings. Old? Yes, they are. Josephus wrote around the time shortly after Christ lived. He probably died shortly after 100 AD, himself. So he was living in old times.
All you had to do was answer yes. You believe that since scripture doesnt specifically say Peter was in Rome then its impossible for him to have been in rome and therefore the roman catholic church is not valid. Thats what you are asserting. Fascinating.
 
From Proving Inspiration:

Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

Even fine vestments: “Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments (ta himatia) and divided them into four parts, to every soldier a part, and the coat (kai ton chitona). Now the coat was without seam, woven whole from the top down. Therefore, they said among themselves, let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it will become. Thus the saying in Scripture was fulfilled: they divided My raiment (ta imatia) among them, and upon My vesture (epi ton himatismon) did they cast lots” (John 19:23-24; quoting the Septuagint version of Psalm 21 [22]:18-19).
 
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