Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[rev_kevin]

Here’s a question, revkev - Paul wrote TO the Christians in Rome. And in Romans makes pretty clear that he had not yet been there personally. So clearly someone else had beaten him to the punch and gone to Rome and established a Christian community there. Any candidates for who? Apart from Peter?

Exactly when Christians first appeared in Rome is difficult to determine, The Acts of the Apostles claims that the Jewish Christian couple Priscilla and Aquila had recently come from Rome to Corinth when, in about the year 50, Paul reached the latter city, indicating that belief in Jesus in Rome had preceded Paul. Irenaeus of Lyons believed in the second century that Peter and Paul had been the founders of the Church in Rome and had appointed Linus as succeeding bishop. There is no conclusive evidence,

Paul’s Epistle to the Romans 16 (c 58) attests to a large Christian community already there but does not mention Peter.

Godfearers (or ‘Fearers of God’) are considered to be of significant importance to the popularity of the early Christian movement. They represented a group of gentiles who shared religious ideas with Jews, to one degree or another. However, they were not converts, but a separate gentile community, engaged in Judaic religious ideas and practices. Actual conversion would require adherence to the Law of Moses, which includes various prohibitions (kashrut, circumcision, Sabbath observance etc.) which were generally unattractive to would-be gentile converts.

The message of St. Paul stressed that faith in Jesus constituted a new covenant with God, a covenant which essentially provides a ‘free gift’ of salvation from the harsh edicts of the Mosaic law. The Law of Moses was considered therefore to have little relevance to the Pauline Christian community as the sacrifice of the Christ was seen as a liberation from the demand that a person follow the Law without deviation, see also Abrogation of Old Covenant laws.

This message was taken up by the Godfearers, who already represented a sizable group of people. In Paul’s message of salvation through faith as opposed to works, the Godfearers found an essentially Jewish group to which they could belong without the necessity of their accepting Jewish Law. Aside from earning Paul’s group a wide following, this view was generalized in the eventual conclusion that converts to Christianity need not first accept all Jewish Law,

This is what I found out when I goolged “who brought the church to rome.” Some of this I already posted in other posts here.

 

[Cinette]

Then if it is not part of the Holy Trinity then how could Jesus say he is sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth.

And Jesus said Saul was persecuting HIM, who was Saul persecuting Jesus or the Church? Do you deny that Saul was persecuting the Church or do you deny that Jesus was correct when he said he was the Church? What are you in conflict with here?

And how can the Trinity be God made up of 3 Person if you reject that Jesus is the Church? And how can Jesus not be part of the Trinity? And how can the Holy Spriit not be part of the Trinity?

*:bigyikes::bigyikes:

I have never heard such nonsense!! You say you are Catholic?!!*

 

[rev_kevin]

*Couldn’t agree with you more.

I can’t understand why some people feel the need to harp on insignificant detail. Perhaps to divert the conversation.

*

In order to know if Jesus startee the Catholic Church we must find out who he started it with. So this is not harping on insignificant detal’s. Once we establish that then we will know if Jesus started the Catholic Church.

 

[Cinette]

I say that Christ did found the Universal Church. However, I reject that Rome is the only body that exists as that church. I respect that all of Orthodoxy and Rome are part of that Church.

*Jesus said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH! Not Churches! Don’t forget that it was through the actions of Luther that Protestantism began and then the splitting started - all the denominations.

The Church MUST be One.

*

 

[Cinette]

Exactly! Then why are you asking about Peter,when the issue is Jesus and the Catholic Church.

*Good point - the question is “Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?” Jesus instructed Peter to “feed my lambs, feed my sheep” and so Peter carried out Jesus’ instructions and others have followed after him. But it was JESUS who founded/built the Church.

*

 

[rev_kevin]

Exactly! Then why are you asking about Peter,when the issue is Jesus and the Catholic Church.

In order to find out if Jesus started the Church, we must find out who he started it with.

 

[rev_kevin]

*Good point - the question is “Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?” Jesus instructed Peter to “feed my lambs, feed my sheep” and so Peter carried out Jesus’ instructions and others have followed after him. But it was JESUS who founded/built the Church.

*

OK what Church?

 

[rev_kevin]

*Jesus said "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH! Not Churches! Don’t forget that it was through the actions of Luther that Protestantism began and then the splitting started - all the denominations.

The Church MUST be One.

*

Again what Church?
What is the Church?

 

[Cinette]

I’m done with this thread if that is the way you feel.

*rev devin you are not being honest. Benedictus wants you to read the article about Peter in Rome. It is an excellent article but you keep avoiding it and when she reminds you you say “that’s it - I’m out of here!”
:nope::nope::nope:
*

 

[rev_kevin]

*rev devin you are not being honest. Benedictus wants you to read the article about Peter in Rome. It is an excellent article but you keep avoiding it and when she reminds you you say “that’s it - I’m out of here!”
:nope::nope::nope:
*

Catch up that has been about 17 posts ago and it was resolved. Several posts back I stated I read the article. Please read the posts and so you can catch up. rev kevin not rev devin.

 

[Cinette]

Baptist. But there are some parts that I disagree with.

*You have stated that you only agree with part of, part of the truth. Are you satisfied with that?


*

 

[rev_kevin]

*You have stated that you only agree with part of, part of the truth. Are you satisfied with that?


*

Thats is off topic. Lets not derail the thread.

 

[Cinette]

In order to know if Jesus startee the Catholic Church we must find out who he started it with. So this is not harping on insignificant detal’s. Once we establish that then we will know if Jesus started the Catholic Church.

*H e l l o!

Matt 16:18-20 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.*

Please rev kevin - explain to me exactly what Jesus meant. I want to know how you interpret those words of Jesus.

I look forward to your response.

 

[Cinette]

Catch up that has been about 17 posts ago and it was resolved. Several posts back I stated I read the article. Please read the posts and so you can catch up. rev kevin not rev devin.

*Then what are your comments? What do you think of the article?

Communicate!

*

 

[rev_kevin]

*H e l l o!

Matt 16:18-20 “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.*

Please rev kevin - explain to me exactly what Jesus meant. I want to know how you interpret those words of Jesus.

I look forward to your response.

Was Peter the rock that Jesus would build his church on?
What does it mean to build?

To form by combining materials or parts; construct. Peter was to combine the teachings of Jesus which are his materials
To order, finance, or supervise the construction of: Peter was to be the supervisor or leader in the construction
To develop or give form to according to a plan or process; create: build a nation.Peter was to go by Jesus plan.
To increase or strengthen by adding gradually to Peter was to strengthen Jesus teachings

The Greek verb oikodomeo translated as built.
Now it could mean that Peter was to strengthen the teachings of Jesus. To make his teachings more avaible to everyone.

Peter was to build on the teachings of Jesus

Church Peter was to teach, instruct, his church which is his believers/followers. The church is a body of believers in Jesus Christ. Those who believe in his teachings.

If you are a believer in Christ and in his teachings, if you accept Christ then Satan can not prevail. It would be hard for Satan to take you away from Christ.

I give you the keys to my Kingdom. To bring people to the Kingdom of Heaven by presenting them with the message of salvation found in God’s word.

Why did Jesus warn them not to tell anyone. Because the disciples did not fully understand the kind of Messiah he had come to be, he was not a military commander but a suffering srevant. They needed to come to a full understanding of Jesus and their mission as disciples before they could proclaim it to others in a way that would not cause a rebellion. That they would have a hard time understandin;g what Jesus came to do until his mission was complete.

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

Here is some commentary from the apostolic fathers:

Pope Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things
which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve
themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray
with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of
his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

“Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him.” Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that
what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans
3:1 [A.D. 110]).

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son;** the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love**…” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).

Ignatius was a student of St. John the Evangelist and Clement was a student of Peter and other apostles. Jerome, Origen, and Eusebius identify Clement or Rome as the Clement in Philippians 4:3. Pope Clement exercised his authority over the church in Corinth that had a dispute. Clement refers to Peter as the greatest and most righteous pillar of the Church. Ignatius says the See of Rome teaches others. Ignatius desires the see of Rome’s instructions to remain in force. Ignatius says the Church of Rome is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God and is worthy of honor, God, highest happiness, praise, credit, etc.

From these disciples of the apostles alone we see language that describes characteristics of the papacy and the authority of Rome. They describe other Catholic teachings like apostolic succession, the real presence in the Eucharist, sacred tradition, etc. We don’t have much writings from Polycarp (who was also a disciple of st. John) but Iranaeus was a student of Polycarp and he elaborates a little more on the papacy and other Catholic teachings. These were the early leaders of the Church who denounced false Gospels and fought heresies. It’s also through these church fathers that we know that the Gospel of Mark was Peter’s testimony as described to Mark and that Luke was an associate of St. Paul and other apostles etc.

I know these quotes alone don’t spell out completely all the attributes of the pope, but as time goes on and the church grows we see many more early Christian fathers spelling out the papacy more clearly. Also remember that doctrines are clearly defined in reaction to heresies so just because these early writings don’t specify everything doesn’t mean that things were made up and added on. 1 Timothy 3:15 says the church is the foundation of truth and in John 16: 12-13 Jesus tells us the spirit of truth will come and guide us to truth until the end of the age. I just don’t find it very believable that Jesus came to earth, started his church, and after his apostles died his church immediately went astray until the reformation even though he promised the spirit of truth to guide us.

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

Why are there are so many early references to the Catholic church?

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,–in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,–and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

“But for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance…these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.” Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).

 

[rev_kevin]

*Then what are your comments? What do you think of the article?

Communicate!

*

It was good. Interesting reading. Now I know where you, (Catholics) get your rebutles from in reguards to this subject because a lot mentioned here in this thread seems to be word for word or at least very close to what is in that article. The last part was interesting as well. There are parts in there that I have mentioned here in this thread. But that is only one way of looking at things. There are also other way to look at it. Its what is taught by the CC therefore it would lean in one direction like a site that is for Protestants would lean to their side on the subject. Now there are parts I agree with and parts I don’t agree with. It seemed to be a little bit anti-Protestant but just a bit not very much.

 

[Curious_Hobbit]

“Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church…” Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325).

“Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

"[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

“I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen.” Apostles Creed (A.D. 360).

“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshiped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one holy Catholic, and apostolic Church.” Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381).

 

[Cinette]

It was good. Interesting reading. Now I know where you, (Catholics) get your rebutles from in reguards to this subject because a lot mentioned here in this thread seems to be word for word or at least very close to what is in that article. The last part was interesting as well. There are parts in there that I have mentioned here in this thread. But that is only one way of looking at things. There are also other way to look at it. Its what is taught by the CC therefore it would lean in one direction like a site that is for Protestants would lean to their side on the subject. Now there are parts I agree with and parts I don’t agree with. It seemed to be a little bit anti-Protestant but just a bit not very much.

*I used to talk like you and then one day someone quoted St Augustine (paraphrasing)."…one does not need to understand in order to believe but believe in order to understand." It hit me like a ton of bricks.

You see rev kevin - Faith is not a matter of opinion, of agreeing or disagreeing. Faith is a matter of trust in and love of the Lord. We have to obey the Lord.

Understanding comes later or it may never come at all!

*