Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

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If there was no Catholic church there would be no Prostestants which is true and there would be no Catholics also so that would leave us with what?.
It would leave you with Nothing Rev because the Catholic Church is that 'church" in the Scriptures so if you take away the Catholic Church the Church in the scriptures would’nt have existed at all! Now I know you’re playing this little semantics game and if that’s what you like to do then fine that’s your prerogative. But when your game involves denying legitimate historical facts then you have a problem and I’m not saying this to be mean I’m saying it because I’m very concerned for you.
 
*rev kevin - you are Baptist and as you said yourself, you do not agree with everything they teach. I guess the only way to agree with everything is to plant your own church!

Seriously, as I said before (might have been on another thread) Faith is not a matter of opinion! I might have a problem understanding something - and as I said we believe without understanding because that is what Faith is all about. We love and trust the Lord and therefore believe his teachings. We do not have to understand in order to believe.

As for my “yes but” brother-in-law I applaud my sister’s patience!

God bless you*
Cinette:):)🙂
NO thanks I don’t want to give you another denomination to all to the list of thousands of other denominatons that the CC complains about.

FAITH
religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; “he lost his faith but not his morality”

complete confidence in a person or plan etc; “he cherished the faith of a good woman”; “the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust”

religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; “he was raised in the Baptist religion”; “a member of his own faith contradicted him”

loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; “keep the faith”; “they broke faith with their investors”
We are getting off topic here so lets go back to Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, concept or thing. The English word is thought to date from 1200–50, from the Latin fidem or fidēs, meaning trust, derived from the verb fīdere, to trust.

The earliest Latin writers used vates to denote “prophets” and soothsayers in general; the word fell into disuse in Latin until it was revived by Virgil . Thus Ovid could describe himself as the vates of Eros (Amores 3.9).

.
 
It would leave you with Nothing Rev because the Catholic Church is that 'church" in the Scriptures so if you take away the Catholic Church the Church in the scriptures would have existed at all! Now I know you’re playing this little semantics game and if that’s what you like to do then fine that’s your prerogative. But when your game involves denying legitimate historical facts then you have a problem and I’m not saying this to be mean I’m saying it because I’m very concerned for you.
I question that is what I do. I’m not playing what you call a semantic game.

Where does it state the Church is the Catholic church Jesus started?

Thanks for bening very concerned for me but I’m alright. God is with me.

Once again you have not refuted my earler post so I still must come to the conclusion that you agree with it.
 
Why? If the only way to be cured of a fatal disease is to be given a vaccine, and you decide that instead, you’re going to substitute injections of grape juice for the vaccine, you’re a dead man.

I’m sorry, Christ doesn’t care if you like the fact he only founded one church.
A lot of jibberish but now substance.
Show me where it says Christ started the CC?
 
A lot of jibberish but now substance.
Show me where it says Christ started the CC?
No. Christ started the Church. I explained the problem with your interpretation here; but apparently you decided the big words were gibberish (which starts with a G, by the way). I’m not repeating myself.

Or have you confused me, whose name is the Czech boogieman, with Heliotropium, whose name is Greco-Latin for this plant?

PS. Sola Scriptura is unbiblical:cool:.
 
No. Christ started the Church. I explained the problem with your interpretation here; but apparently you decided the big words were gibberish (which starts with a G, by the way). I’m not repeating myself.

Or have you confused me, whose name is the Czech boogieman, with Heliotropium, whose name is Greco-Latin for this plant?

PS. Sola Scriptura is unbiblical:cool:.
Code:
The English word "church" has various meanings. Webster gives the following definitions for the word church.
  1. a building for public Christian worship. 2. a religious service in such a building. 3. (sometimes cap.) a. the world body of Christian believers; Christendom. b. any major division of his body; a Christian denomination. 4. a Christian congregation. 5. organized religion as distinguished from the state. 6. (cap) a. The Christian before the reformation. b. the Roman Catholic Church. 7. the profession of an ecclesiastic -V.C. 8. to perform a church service of thanksgiving for (a woman after child birth). Go RI(a)on (DOA) the Lord’s house).(1)

    Today the word church has a wide variety of meanings from referring to a building to performing a religion service. Although we need to understand the modern use of the word it is of little significance in understanding the use of the word the New Testament. It is essential that we understand its original meaning as it was used in New Testament times. In order to establish a New Testament church we must first know what the word “church” means in Scripture.

    In our English Bible the Greek word, “ekklesia” is translated in most places “church.” The word “ekklesia” is found in one hundred and fifteen places in the New Testament. It is translated in English one hundred and thirteen times “church” and the remaining times it is translated “assembly.” In classical Greek the word “ekklesia” meant “an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly.”(2) The word as used in the New Testament is taken from the root of this word, which simply means to “call out.” In New Testament times the word was exclusively used to represent a group of people assembled together for a particular cause or purpose. It was never used exclusively to refer to a religious meeting or group.

    An examination of the Greek word “ekklesia” reveals that the word is properly translated into English as the “assembly” or “congregation.” It is used to refer to a group of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together. Brown states the word was used as early as the 5th Century B.C.:
I. (a) ekklesia, derived via ek-kaleo, which was used for the summons to the army to assemble, from kaleo, to call (–. Call). It is attested from Eur. and Hdt. onwards (5th cent. B.C.), and denotes in the usage of antiquity the popular assembly of the competent full citizens of the polis, city. It reached its greatest importance in the 5th cent, and met at regular intervals (in Athens about 30–40 times a year, elsewhere less frequently) and also in cases of urgency as an extra-ordinary ekklesia. Its sphere of competence included decisions on suggested changes in the law (which could only be effected by the council of the 400), on appointments to official positions and – at least in its heyday – on every important question of internal and external policy (contracts, treaties, war and peace, finance). To these was added in special cases (e.g. treason) the task of sitting in judgment, which as a rule fell to regular courts. The ekklesia opened with prayers and sacrifices to the gods of the city
 
[discussion of the etymology of “church” in English and Greek]
So what? I knew all that, thanks. It’s completely irrelevant, though.

You never answered my point: the New Testament does not say Christ founded the Catholic Church because the title was not used yet, because there was no other claimant to the title “church” to differentiate it from. In the same way, the Roman Emperor is never called “Dominus”, because the Dominate phase of the Imperial power didn’t begin until Diocletian.

You’ll have to do better than asserting “titles that did not exist yet were not used” as your argument.
 
No. Christ started the Church. I explained the problem with your interpretation here; but apparently you decided the big words were gibberish (which starts with a G, by the way). I’m not repeating myself.

Or have you confused me, whose name is the Czech boogieman, with Heliotropium, whose name is Greco-Latin for this plant?

PS. Sola Scriptura is unbiblical:cool:.
Seems to me that An examination of the Greek word “ekklesia” reveals that the word is properly translated into English as the “assembly” or “congregation.” It is used to refer to a group of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together.

Now this meaning in Greek has to do with all Church’s not just the Catholic Church. No where does it say it just means the Catholic Church. Seems to me ALL Church’s fall into this Greek meaning of the word Church.
 
So what? I knew all that, thanks. It’s completely irrelevant, though.

You never answered my point: the New Testament does not say Christ founded the Catholic Church because the title was not used yet, because there was no other claimant to the title “church” to differentiate it from. In the same way, the Roman Emperor is never called “Dominus”, because the Dominate phase of the Imperial power didn’t begin until Diocletian.

You’ll have to do better than asserting “titles that did not exist yet were not used” as your argument.
So the Greek word for church that you go by is irrelevant now?
If the title did not exist yet then how can you be so sure that by church he meant the CC?
Christ founded Christianity not the CC.
 
So the Greek word for church that you go by is irrelevant now?
If the title did not exist yet then how can you be so sure that by church he meant the CC?
Christ founded Christianity not the CC.
I agree. We’re all the body of Christ and our commission remains the same. To spread the good news of Christ to all the nations. CC, Protestant, etc… as long as Christ remains the glue which holds us all together (the Holy Spirit inspired a song about that just the other day), I believe that we all belong to that church which He started. Not unified by all beliefs, but unified by one belief in the person of Christ Jesus, Yeshua-messiah. Do I believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church? No. Do I believe Jesus started THE church. Yes.
 
I’d also like to point out that a more accurate sig you could use is “Ask not what God can do for you, but what God can do through you”
 
T
Today the word church has a wide variety of meanings from referring to a building to performing a religion service. Although we need to understand the modern use of the word it is of little significance in understanding the use of the word the New Testament. It is essential that we understand its original meaning as it was used in New Testament times. In order to establish a New Testament church we must first know what the word “church” means in Scripture.
In our English Bible the Greek word, “ekklesia” is translated in most places “church.” The word “ekklesia” is found in one hundred and fifteen places in the New Testament. It is translated in English one hundred and thirteen times “church” and the remaining times it is translated “assembly.” In classical Greek the word “ekklesia” meant “an assembly of citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly.”(2) The word as used in the New Testament is taken from the root of this word, which simply means to “call out.” In New Testament times the word was exclusively used to represent a group of people assembled together for a particular cause or purpose. It was never used exclusively to refer to a religious meeting or group.
An examination of the Greek word “ekklesia” reveals that the word is properly translated into English as the “assembly” or “congregation.” It is used to refer to a group of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together. Brown states the word was used as early as the 5th Century B.C.:

The ekklesia opened with prayers and sacrifices to the gods of the city
S. Matthew, author of the gospel that we have under his name, was a Galilean, the son of Alpheus, a Jew, and a tax-gatherer; he was known also by the name of Levi. His vocation happened in the second year of the public ministry of Christ; who, soon after forming the college of his apostles, adopted him into that holy family of the spiritual princes and founders of his Church. Before his departure from Judea, to preach the gospel to distant countries, he yielded to the solicitations of the faithful; and about the eighth year after our Saviour’s resurrection, the forty-first of the vulgar era, he began to write his gospel:

Since Matthew recorded Jesus’ words in Mat 18:17 “and if he will not hear them: tell the church” - after the church was already established. Here he was referring the ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church based on the teachings of the apostles with Apostle St Peter in a leading position.

In Matthew 10:2 he records the names of the 12 Apostles leaving out young Saul, the fearce persecutor of the early Church - later called Paul. Witness of the murder of St Steven.

Rev. Kevin, When Matthew records our Lord’s words in Matthew 16:18 do you suggest that he did not know what he meant when he wrote it.

Also, Rev. Kevin, The argument about - Peter, - Cephas, - in Rome, is irrelevant to the question: DID JESUS START THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. St Peter is NOT the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is not Peter. Jesus gave these directives to his apostles LONG BEFORE Peter left Jerusalem to proclaim the gospel to distant lands.

By the way, the word catholic (derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal” comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (kath’holou), meaning “on the whole,” “according to the whole” or “in general”, and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning “about” and όλος meaning “whole”.[3][4] The word in English can mean either “including a wide variety of things; all-embracing” or “of the Roman Catholic faith.” as “relating to the historic doctrine and practice of the Western Church.”

It was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.

No Protestant Church in existence in the past or present can claim this worldwide successive universal unity and continuity since the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the upper room in Jerusalem, described by Luke in Acts. In fact, all were Catholic until Luther, who was himself Catholic. The Catholic Church never ceased to be. Thanks to this continuation and unity, the Gospel and teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ remains intact and free of heresy.
 
The English word “church” has various meanings. Webster gives the following definitions for the word church.
  1. a building for public Christian worship. 2. a religious service in such a building. 3. (sometimes cap.) a. the world body of Christian believers; Christendom. b. any major division of his body; a Christian denomination. 4. a Christian congregation. 5. organized religion as distinguished from the state. 6. (cap) a. The Christian before the reformation. b. the Roman Catholic Church. 7. the profession of an ecclesiastic -V.C. 8. to perform a church service of thanksgiving for (a woman after child birth). [Go RI(a)on (DOA) the Lord’s house).(1)

    Today the word church has a wide variety of meanings from referring to a building to performing a religion service. Although we need to understand the modern use of the word it is of little significance in understanding the use of the word the New Testament. It is essential that we understand its original meaning as it was used in New Testament times. In order to establish a New Testament church we must first know what the word “church” means in Scripture.
I. (a) ekklesia, derived via ek-kaleo, which was used for the summons to the army to assemble, from kaleo, to call (–. Call). It is attested from Eur. and Hdt. onwards (5th cent. B.C.), and denotes in the usage of antiquity the popular assembly of the competent full citizens of the polis, city. It reached its greatest importance in the 5th cent, and met at regular intervals (in Athens about 30–40 times a year, elsewhere less frequently) and also in cases of urgency as an extra-ordinary ekklesia. Its sphere of competence included decisions on suggested changes in the law (which could only be effected by the council of the 400), on appointments to official positions and – at least in its heyday – on every important question of internal and external policy (contracts, treaties, war and peace, finance). To these was added in special cases (e.g. treason) the task of sitting in judgment, which as a rule fell to regular courts. The ekklesia opened with prayers and sacrifices to the gods of the city
*When Jesus said "Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church I understand it to mean what we have in the Catholic Church - a place of worship where there is a Tabernacle and where there is reverence and awe - peace and quiet. The focus is on Jesus in the Tabernacle and the Mass the highest form of prayer.

I have been with friends to several Protestant Churches (on invitation). There as you enter it is full of chatter and people greeting each other and the focus is on the preaching - the people are very friendly. In the CC the homily is important but is not the focus - as you enter you first make the sign of the Cross with Holy Water (to remind you of your Baptism) then you genuflect and settle on the bench you choose. You will also kneel during the most sacred parts of the Mass (the Consecration). The readings each Sunday or at Daily Mass are set with 2 reading from OT or Epistles, Psalm and Gospel (all inter-related). The priest will speak on the Gospel and how it relates to the other readings. In the Protestant Churches the minister will preach on some on his favourite Scripture verses. I have Protestant friends who say "I must go to church - I need a good sermon. I found their services to be more like a concert.

Please understand that I have the highest respect for many non-Catholics. Their devotion and faithfullness to the Bible and their commitment to Christianity is simply beautiful. They too suffer persecution.

:):)🙂

'*
[/quote]
 
Now the only church mentioned by Christ is church. He never mentions any denomination ie, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist or any other. The CC uses the “apostlic succession” as their way of saying Christ started the CC. NO where does it say he did. It only says Church. Which is defined as:
one of the groups of Christians who have their own beliefs and forms of worship
a place for public (especially Christian) worship; “the church was empty”
church service: a service conducted in a house of worship; “don’t be late for church”
perform a special church rite or service for; “church a woman after childbirth”
*You cannot call the Catholic Church a denomination!!

You say you were Catholic but you do not know the Catholic Church from what one can gather.
:):)🙂
*
 
So the Greek word for church that you go by is irrelevant now?
If the title did not exist yet then how can you be so sure that by church he meant the CC?
Christ founded Christianity not the CC.
The Greek word for church would be relevant in some context, I’m sure, and would be the only relevant one, since the NT was written in Koine, not English.

It is not relevant in this one.

Christ most certainly did not found Christianity; the term is unattested before Medieval Latin. He founded “the church.” Koine is a bastardized dialect, but one advantage is, it has a definite article, unlike Classical Greek—there’s no ambiguity about whether he meant “the church” or “a church”. “The Church” means there’s only one.

And there only ever will be.
 
Hi, Rev Kevin,

Not true!

As I understand it, your entire position is based on solid evidence that Christ did not start the Catholic Church. I have YET to see anything that approaches what most people consider evidence - there has been, however, and abundance of opinion and self-justification for the actions and statements you have made.

We can draw a line - yes, a real line - from God giving the Ten Commandments to Moses to the development of at least some of them into secular law. For those who foolishly say, “You can’t legislate morality” just look at “Thou shalt not kill … steal … bear false witness”, etc. After we draw the line we can put dates on it so we can clearly see how this matter progressed through human history.

Now, draw a similar line from Christ’s birth (for simplicity, 1AD) to His words to Peter that Christ would build His Chruch on Peter (about 32AD) to the death of the Last Apostle, John, in about the year 100AD. We see the development of ideas brought about by the Early Church Fathers - do we wonder what Church these guys belong to? We see the development of an organized structure that has leadership, a growing set of beliefs, rules to follow and people who recognize it as God’s Own Church. This line does not end in 500AD - it keeps on going. I think it accurate to say that we move from a straight line to quite a jumble once we hit the 16th Century. Now, you just have to ask yourself what has happened.

I would recommend you go back and address the issues raised by Benedictus2 - and, you should do this for your OWN SAKE. Yes - you see, I have a hunch that that logical mind you have was in outright shock at the statements you were called on to address and failed to do so! The point of these discussions is not to bludgeon anyone into agreement, but to present ideas. It becomes problematic, however, that once ideas are presented, there is this evasion and topic changes and hurt feelings (“I am quitting this list!”) that suddenly develops. What is so sad to me, is to see this happen over and over again from different people - all claiming to want to follow Christ, yet all failing to acknowledge His commands and the what He has given us - the Catholic Church… for all of her warts.

Go on … draw some lines. Look at the history. Look at what happened for the first 1600 years of Christ’s Church.

God bless
See you want me to read what the ECF wrote and then say “Oh I agree with it.” But on the other hand when I write or quote something else I don’t see you saying “Oh I agree with it.” We are of different beliefs here. You believe what the CC teaches and I don’t. It seems that if I read what the ECF write I will automatically believe it because it was written by them. I have read the post directly above mine and???
 
I confess to doubts and confusion when it comes to Christ beginning the Catholic Church as it is today. Here he was, with hardly a place to lay his head, and here is the church with its huge cathedrals, its ornate vestments, its long processions, and such.
Code:
If Christ did start the church what does he think of it today? I sometimes have even wondered if the sex scandal and other problems could be a punishment? Or, maybe an alarm? I also have honestly wondered if the early Hebrew-Christian tradition was invaded by the Greco-Roman religion and the mystery cults. Don't know. Just wondering.

When I see the Pope and all the finery and ceremony and adulation connected with him I wonder: what would Jesus think? He would have loved the work of Mother Theresa and of the many others who seek to serve the have-nots in the world. But as for the other????

Too often Christians claim to embrace love, humility and peace while they project an image of bigotry, arrogance and hostility.

Am I wrong?
Talk about “de-railing” right from the get go. “…huge cathedrals, its ornate vestments, its long processions, and such…”

The Catholic church is the one, true church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first Pope. 264 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI and the gates of hell have not and will not prevail against her.
 
Doesn’t matter, posters are caught in symantics here. The fact remains the Catholic/Orthodox church is started by Peter/Paul in Rome and Greece and spead throughout West and Eastern Europe. Its a historical fact, and as you research the conversion of each country the spead in time and how it spead becomes apparent

It also is irrelevant what the context of the Greek is in Matthew of “church”. Peter still interpreted it as Christs “ministry” the Word of God. And the Apostles then taught that throughout Europe. And the fact that Peter and Paul, John, Luke, Timothy, Mark and Matthew are continuosly defended in their teachings throughout the 2nd and 3rd centurys only confirms the validity of the Word which then confirms the validity if the ministry called the CC. As the 2nd and 3rd generations of disciples spread the word, Contantine and Helena come in the picture to then prove Christianity through artifacts and accurate historical evidence due to Helenas conversion. Here is when Rome of Christianity comes into play.

Listen the Bible in New Testament context came after these conversations took place . The scriptures are written around 50-AD and continue until after 100–AD. They then become confirmed through the writtings of others from after 100-AD. Like Irenaeus and Ignatius as mentioned several times in this thread. When the context of the Bible is doubted then “Christianity” itself is doubted. Theres not “some” right and THEN…the part the Catholic/Orthodox Church interperted wrong. Which is exactly why early christian writters defended the Apostles teaching. The church isn’t what they defended, its Christs WORD which is defended, then the Bible is written, and then the Church becomes a congregation where the word is taught, lived, and accepted as truth. As a consequence to the truth.

In fact if the Catholic/Orthodox Church were wrong in teaching you wouldn’t even have a Protestant Church today as you know it, its impossible.

There is no seperating Matthew from Peter and Paul and establishment of the Chruch in Rome or Greece. You fail to understand all these followers of Christ were one of the same in understanding and teaching. And the church became a truth “as a result”.

And there was no church in Rome during Peter and Pauls era. They were hunted, persecuted, in hiding. This wasn’t a “popular tourist sight” at the time. Romans feed Christians to the Lions and slaughtered them. Many avoided Rome as you see in Pauls writtings when Timothy came but Luke didn’t. What they were doing in Rome was Evangalization. Which would be about equal to any two individuals going to NYC today and doing the same thing on the street daily. Thats about what happened.

There is NO CHURCH as a building, its the Word of God as taught by Jesus Christ which is called Christianity. The fact that one doesn’t agree with what Christ told Peter and what soon become reality, doesn’t change anything one iota. In fact you would be just another heretic. Nothing new or unexpected. Its happened in every century since Christ and the Cross. 🤷

The Word is taught where the apostles ate slept and traveled. Just as it was with Jesus Christ. Did Christ have a CHURCH? Well after the Cross there is no church either. It took decades to establish the church and it happened “as a result” of the Christ and his teachings to the Apostles which then became the Church. When you deny this, you deny your own christian history. The Protestant church is “AS A RESULT” of the Catholic Church. And that is what Christ speaks about to Peter, His Word being spread as the ministry and mystical body of Jesus Christ, which becomes a brick and mortar building in time.

Constantine and Helena then become the researchers of Jesus Christ in word and artifact and built the Roman Catholic Church through their converstion.
 
Talk about “de-railing” right from the get go. “…huge cathedrals, its ornate vestments, its long processions, and such…”

The Catholic church is the one, true church that Christ intended to exist after His ascension into heaven and of which He left Peter as its first Pope. 264 popes later to Pope Benedict XVI and the gates of hell have not and will not prevail against her.
*I get sick and tired of these silly tirades about the CC being rich and full of money.

Each year every country in the world has a collection which goes to Rome. I remember a few years ago we collected just under R1 000 000 which was sent to Rome. Do you know how much we got back? R38 000 000 to help the poor! No other institution in the world can compare with the Catholic Church when it comes to works of charity. The hospitals it runs throughout the world, the schools, clinics, centres for the aged (17 500 - I remember that one), etc etc.

Many people leave money to the Church in their will. Over the years great artists have given of their talent to the Vatican (Michael Angelo) etc. It is priceless but all for the glory of God. The Pope lives in an apartment which cannot be considered luxurious by any means.

The Church reaches out to all peoples irrespective of race or religion.

:):):)*
 
Okay. Christ started a movement which evolved into the Christian church. Where I have trouble is the dogma that this was/is the Catholic Church amd none other, that other Christians are at best separated brothers and sisters, at worse rebellious heretics.
Code:
 My main doubt stems from the reality that Catholicism has become such a legalistic entity, when Jesus always seemed to oppose legalism. That was a serious problem with the religious establishment at that time.

Now, what do I mean by legalism.

Theological legalism. The Catholic Church insists that to embrace the full truth of the gospel you must accept all of its doctrines. It appears to me that many of the doctrines of Catholicism - e. g., transubstantiation, Immaculate Conception, sinless life of Mary, etc. - came along later and are not clearly found in scripture. Once, for example, that Mary became so central to the faith (St. Paul never mentions Mary) then a variety of doctrines followed, many of them defined quite late: Immaculate Conception, 1864, Assumption of Mary, 1950. I feel that the church should not be so legalistic in insisting that all of its many teachings must be accepted, and that Christians should be free to think more for themselves. 

 Liturgical legalism.While some variation is permitted in worship patterns, such as practiced, say, by the Uniate churches of the East, Catholicism has a quite rigid plan of worship. Stay with the missal. There is am approved, right way to celebrate communion - for example, the host has to be made of a certain bread - and certain words to absolve sinners, etc. It could be argued, and is, that this is a strength of Catholicism, the same gospel, the same words of consecration, etc., the world over. I have found it disconcerting that when priests process into a special ceremony they all wear the same colors, only men are in the procession. etc. In other words, with only slight variation, there is a right way to worship and that is to follow the cookie-cutter patterns set down by the church.

Moral legalism. In my mind, there are many gray areas in this area. Birth control, for example. If a couple have the number of children they feel they can raise. providing the benefits of college, etc., I feel that they have the right to limit the number of children. Catholicism permits limiting children, too, but condemns to condemn artificial birth control. Legalistic. Or, take abortion. Millions of good Christians are against abortion, but they would make occasional exceptions, to save the life of the mother, perhaps, or in the case of rape. Or, divorce. Catholicism has annulments, which is church-approved divorce - frankly - but here again the presence of legalism. Many marriages are fine when they start out, but something changes. Maybe the husband becomes addicted to alcohol, changing his personality, or the woman goes criminally insane for some unknown reason. But, no - no divorce unless sanctified by the church. Catholicism's harsh criticism of gays and lesbians is legalistic. I oppose gay marriage myself, but have finally concluded that some people are 'born gay' (God's doing?) and should not be deprived of intimacy the rest of their lives. There is a wide gap between committed loving relationships and wanton promiscuity. and may we should accept the one while condemning the other.

  What I guess I'm suggesting is that the church got off the track somewhere. It began as a form of liberation from the legalism of traditional Judaism with all of its don'ts. But today traditional Catholicism is weighed down by its own legalism. This certainly is one one reason so many people either have left the church or ignore its pronouncements.

  This is not to take from the wonderful work that thousands of devoted priests and nuns have done, and continue to do, around the world. The problem is not with them (well, there are exceptions) but with the ecclesiastical framework within which they have to work. Perhaps its time that the hierarchy took a good look at itself. Perhaps it is another example of legalism.   

  God bless all of his children of every creed, culture, color and country. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier among them.
 
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