R
Roy5
Guest
A Few Brief Responses
I enjoy a civil discussion, and we seem to be having that. I appreciate the privilege to participate since I take a position that does not reflect that of the Catholic Church. As I said, I come from a Catholic/Protestant heritage. An ancestral cousin was Archbishop of Quebec!
**
1. I am against abortion, but there are exceptions.** I remember one couple who had six young children. The husband and wife followed the Catholic-approved method of birth control, but she became pregnant again. The doctor had warned her that giving birth a seventh time could endanger her life and that of the new baby. The priest advised them to trust in God. They followed the advice of the priest. The woman and baby died, leaving a grieving (and angry) husband and six young motherless children, That family left the Catholic Church to become Episcopalian, and when the husband/father speaks of Catholicism he becomes red with rage. I would have advised that they follow the advice of their doctor. After all, most ‘abortions’ are miscarriages. Who causes them? Besides, little ones live eternally in the company of Jesus. Since my wife and I had two miscarriages, we have been very sensitive on this issue.
** 2. The Muslims say that Christ was not crucified but a look-alike was.** I know of no Christian group that says that.
** 3. I read many of the Church Fathers over the years.** They were brilliant men for their era, but without a realistic view of the heavens and with no microscope their writings are full of factual errors (we know now) and superstitions. To rely on them today is questionable in light of that. Even medieval venerable scholars like Thomas Aquinas are to be questioned. Remember how he said the church should not execute heretics. No. The church should report them to the civil authorities who then should execute them!
** 4. There have been countless apparitions of Mary,** a few endorsed by the church. I guess I am enough influenced by modern science to have serious doubts. Yet, I know that love of Mary plays a positive role in the lives of many Catholics. All Christians honor her. Veneration is something else.
**
5. I also deplore the moral conditions in the world today.** I’m not sure, however, that it is worse than at other times in history. As a child, I grew up during WWII when 60,000,000 died, most of them innocent civilians. What was moral about killing so many?
** 6. Luther was noted as a devoted family man**. I am not a great admirer of him for other reasons, but to suggest that he was otherwise is simply false and unfair. He was courageous and brilliant and charismatic. His attack on the peasants and the Jews trouble me.
**
7. There was disunity in the church from the outset**. We see that in Paul’s writings. There was the major dispute over circumcision, kosher food, etc. Then there were 101 ‘heresies’ along the way, some of their adherenets condemned by majority vote at a council, some slaughtered. The notion that there was only one church for the first hundreds of years is misleading. Had other groups won, we would have a very different set of Church Fathers to read.
** 8. I am not a sola scriptura Christian. **In fact, one of my problems with both Protestants and Catholics is the adulation given the Bible. Did God actually save only Noah and seven of his family? What sort of God would deliberately drown all the innocent children (and babies still in the womb) as this myth suggests? Nor do I believe that God told Joshua to murder all the residents of Jericho or order Saul to kill every remaining Amalekite. As I recall, Christ told us to love our enemies etc. What about verses like Ex. 22:18, 20 and many others found in such places as Lev. 20, Deut. 22-23 and elsewhere. The Bible has wonderful inspirational material, but there is material in it I find immoral.
** 9. Sex between husbands and wives is for procreation, but not only for that**. It is for bonding, for enjoying intimacy together, often for reconciliation, for growing closer as a couple, etc. This notion that the husband and wife have to play ‘Russian roulette’ is wrong.
I enjoy a civil discussion, and we seem to be having that. I appreciate the privilege to participate since I take a position that does not reflect that of the Catholic Church. As I said, I come from a Catholic/Protestant heritage. An ancestral cousin was Archbishop of Quebec!
**
1. I am against abortion, but there are exceptions.** I remember one couple who had six young children. The husband and wife followed the Catholic-approved method of birth control, but she became pregnant again. The doctor had warned her that giving birth a seventh time could endanger her life and that of the new baby. The priest advised them to trust in God. They followed the advice of the priest. The woman and baby died, leaving a grieving (and angry) husband and six young motherless children, That family left the Catholic Church to become Episcopalian, and when the husband/father speaks of Catholicism he becomes red with rage. I would have advised that they follow the advice of their doctor. After all, most ‘abortions’ are miscarriages. Who causes them? Besides, little ones live eternally in the company of Jesus. Since my wife and I had two miscarriages, we have been very sensitive on this issue.
** 2. The Muslims say that Christ was not crucified but a look-alike was.** I know of no Christian group that says that.
** 3. I read many of the Church Fathers over the years.** They were brilliant men for their era, but without a realistic view of the heavens and with no microscope their writings are full of factual errors (we know now) and superstitions. To rely on them today is questionable in light of that. Even medieval venerable scholars like Thomas Aquinas are to be questioned. Remember how he said the church should not execute heretics. No. The church should report them to the civil authorities who then should execute them!
** 4. There have been countless apparitions of Mary,** a few endorsed by the church. I guess I am enough influenced by modern science to have serious doubts. Yet, I know that love of Mary plays a positive role in the lives of many Catholics. All Christians honor her. Veneration is something else.
**
5. I also deplore the moral conditions in the world today.** I’m not sure, however, that it is worse than at other times in history. As a child, I grew up during WWII when 60,000,000 died, most of them innocent civilians. What was moral about killing so many?
** 6. Luther was noted as a devoted family man**. I am not a great admirer of him for other reasons, but to suggest that he was otherwise is simply false and unfair. He was courageous and brilliant and charismatic. His attack on the peasants and the Jews trouble me.
**
7. There was disunity in the church from the outset**. We see that in Paul’s writings. There was the major dispute over circumcision, kosher food, etc. Then there were 101 ‘heresies’ along the way, some of their adherenets condemned by majority vote at a council, some slaughtered. The notion that there was only one church for the first hundreds of years is misleading. Had other groups won, we would have a very different set of Church Fathers to read.
** 8. I am not a sola scriptura Christian. **In fact, one of my problems with both Protestants and Catholics is the adulation given the Bible. Did God actually save only Noah and seven of his family? What sort of God would deliberately drown all the innocent children (and babies still in the womb) as this myth suggests? Nor do I believe that God told Joshua to murder all the residents of Jericho or order Saul to kill every remaining Amalekite. As I recall, Christ told us to love our enemies etc. What about verses like Ex. 22:18, 20 and many others found in such places as Lev. 20, Deut. 22-23 and elsewhere. The Bible has wonderful inspirational material, but there is material in it I find immoral.
** 9. Sex between husbands and wives is for procreation, but not only for that**. It is for bonding, for enjoying intimacy together, often for reconciliation, for growing closer as a couple, etc. This notion that the husband and wife have to play ‘Russian roulette’ is wrong.
Code:
**10. As for remarriage, I applaud and encourage those men and women who undergo the pain of divorce but then find a new love.** The requirement that they get an annulment first is the church's attempt at control. What really makes it weird is that if a Catholic marries a Protestant outside the church, they are divorced - no problem! That first marriage doesn't count! Tsk! Tsk! A sad example of tribalism gone beserk.
These are some of the reasons I have trouble with any form of dogmatic Christianity, whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. Frankly, I find that some Orthodox can be very pompous, as though they alone are the original Christians. Myself, I'm inclined to think that the simple faith as taught by Christ soon became infected with influences from the mystery cults, Greco-Roman paganism and other religions of that era. Instead of citing those early times as setting the standard for today, we need to depend less in tradition and more on the spirit of Christ, which, among other things, included the admonition that we 'judge not'.
But God bless everybody anyway.
First I am not sure what sentence you mean, could you be more clear, thanks.
The longer you are here, the more humble you will become. You will see!!
Looks like the old Roy5 I recall has returned.
