Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[rinnie]

How can you start a church that has no name? Did Jesus say “I have come to start the Catholic Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Baptist Church?” NO. Did Jesus come and say “I have come to start the Methodist Church?” NO. Jesus did not come to start a Church. He came to spread Christianity and to die for our sins.

The reason we are taught Jesus came was to die on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Now did he come to start a Church? According to the word of God yes.

Here is why Kev. The CC has wonderous qualities that identify itself with Christ.

And although the Church is Perfect it also has a human dimension. Although it is Perfect it shows that Humans members of the Church are in-perfect.

Although the Church is one, we find it has divisions among the faithful.

The CCC does teach us the Sacred Mystery though of the Church’s Unity. We are united in eachother Rev, Kev, do you know how. I know you do. It is because of her source Christ.

We may be not be united in a perfect communion, but we are united by a Perfect Christ.

It reminds us that the Church is one because of her founder Christ who IS the word made flesh, and who walked among us to restore the unity in one people and one body.

This is what we need to do, Accept our unity in Christ and see it, before we can come together and become one with him in the Sacraments. It is then we will all eat from the same table.

See it is by the Grace of Christ that makes the Church Holy. It is from him and from his Holy Spirit that comes all true holiness.

Because of his presence the doctrine the Church teaches is holy, it remains unalterably his teaching that bring us to salvation.

That is why I say that Jesus being in 2nd person of the Trinity, and uniting himself with the CC by his presence of the Holy Spirit makes him no less the 2nd Person of the Trinity, then it makes his teaching by the Holy Spirit any different.

They are one in the same.

It is in this holiness that Jesus has both Human and Divine that the Church invites all of us. It is in this holiness now rooted in the presence of the Holy Spirit manifested in the Sacramental life of the Church, particualy the Euchartist the Church continues in spite of its members.

Again think what I am saying, In this holiness Rooted in the PRESENCE of the Holy Spirit and manifested in the Sacramental life of the Church that the Church continues. So another way of putting it is this is how CHRIST continues.

The whole core why the Church IS CATHOLIC is this. It is Catholic because of Christ’s presence in her, AND because she has been SENT to proclaim his gospel to all the People of the world.

Now here is the important part. The Catholic or UNIVERSAL Church. (remember I showed you where it is showed in scripture) makes its home throughout the entire world. With the successor of Peter as its head.

That is why the Pope says All Salvation comes from the Catholic CHurch, Simply because we know that all salvation comes from Jesus Christ. It is just another way of Saying All Salvation comes from Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ and the Catholic CHurch are the same and with that said is how Salvation is given.

Just like Jesus gave Salvation from his Body the 2nd person when he walked this earth, it is now given by the Church by the mystery of the Sacraments. It all comes from the same source GOD!!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Rev Kev, I am only asking because I do not know. Now according to the RCC if someone is baptised he is Baptised in the name of the Trinity. Now when you were baptised in the Baptist Church were you baptised in the same way.

Now if so, did they know that you were baptised in the CC.

The reason again I am asking is if you were baptised in the Baptist Church first, and it was in the name of the Trinity, the RCC recognizes that Baptism.

My Husband was baptised in the Protestant Church but as long as it was in the name of the Trinity he did not have to be re- baptised. We believe in One baptism for the forgiveness of sins. And we believe there is only one way, the F.S.HS.

The CC reasoning for this is you can only be Baptised (re-born in Christ once). What is the baptist reasoning in this? Thanks.

In our profession of faith it states we acknowledge ONE BAPTISM for the forgiveness of Sins.

Your right rinnie, I use to take the parents children [with permission of course] when I ran the Homeless Shelter here, and have them baptised this way. Often the mother was Catholic but do to falling away and children outside of marriage etc, they ran into a problem with the CC. You know 6-mths belonging to the church, Catholics to stand up for them, Sacrements etc. So yes I didn’t want to waste time and did exactly this. I felt better this way and it was in the childrens best interest.

 

[rinnie]

Your right rinnie, I use to take the parents children [with permission of course] when I ran the Homeless Shelter here, and have them baptised this way. Often the mother was Catholic but do to falling away and children outside of marriage etc, they ran into a problem with the CC. You know 6-mths belonging to the church, Catholics to stand up for them, Sacrements etc. So yes I didn’t want to waste time and did exactly this. I felt better this way and it was in the childrens best interest.

Yes Sacraments. If I could show anyone the truth in the RCC it is the Sacraments.

If I could show Rev Kev ONE thing, it would be this, How did we gain Salvation, Simple Sacrifice. The Sacrifice on the Cross is how we are saved.

It is by the Sacrifice on the cross that we got the words Sacraments. The Sacrifice on the Cross is the reason we have the Sacraments in the Church.

The Sacraments are the way we communicate with Christ and he still interceeds with us like when he was here in as the Son, It is by his Spirit the Holy Spirit he communicates through the Spirit with the Sacraments.

What do we have to do to have eternal life. Simple Eat this bread, where is this bread of life given. Simple through the Eucharist, where is the Eucharist in the CC.

What do we have to do to have eternal life, Simple, confess our sins and be forgiven, what is ths sacrament, Simple Confession, where is it given, the CC.

What is marriage? A sacrament, where is marriage a Sacrament. In the CC.

What is Holy Orders? Simple a sacrament! It is by the Sacrament of Holy Orders a PRiest can forgive, what CHurch has the sacrament of Holy ORders. The CC.

Is Jesus in other Church’s. Of course he is, Jesus is anywhere that 2 or more are gathered in his name. But does other Church’s have the Sacraments. That is why we must have the CC.

Jesus gave that power to the Apostles to exercise the Sacraments in his name.

 

[At_Trent]

Oh My!! Where did you ever get this teaching? Not from the Pope thats for sure.

The CCC 838 sure is in direct conflict with this.According to the CCC all those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptised are put in a certain although (name removed by moderator)ERECT, COMMUNION with the CC.

Actually, it’s in direct harmony with Doctrine.

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 – 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 – 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus )

Quite simply:
“Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around.”
G.K. Chesterton "

Chesterton, you can take or leave. Doctrine on the other hand, is what it is.

 

[CEM5]

Christ established a church and gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. The Church is Christ’s bride, and He is the faithful Groom who died for His Bride, and promised that the gates of hell would NEVER prevail. Christ is not a liar.

When Simon recognized Jesus as “the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” (Matt 16:16), Christ changed Simon’s name to “Rock”, (Cephas or Kepas depending on translation - means the same thing: a huge rock). Peter is the English translation of the Greek, Cephas.

Matt 16: –
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, (“Rock” = Cephas) and on this rock (cephas) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you (Peter/“Rock”) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

In a kingdom, (which the Church on earth is God’s kingdom on earth), the King gives His “right-hand-man” (His most loyal ward) – the Royal Steward – the keys to the kingdom. It is a position held for life, and upon the death of the Royal Steward, another is appointed by the king. Jesus is the King, and Peter and his successors hold the keys to the kingdom. When the king is away (or otherwise occupied), it is the Royal Steward who runs and rules the kingdom. He holds the keys to the gates and the royal treasury. No one could see the king without first obtaining an audience with the Royal Steward.

Jesus the king is away, yet His Holy Spirit, as promised, guides the Church to all truth (in matters on faith and morality), and it is Peter’s successors (the Popes) who govern this Church under Christ, the head of the Church.

Jesus is King of kings, and the Head of the Church (in heaven and on earth). We who have been validly baptized, as decreed by Jesus (In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit – the Trinity), are members of the Church and compose the Body of the Church. Christ is the head; we are the body. There is only ONE Church, just as there is only One Body in Christ. When one member suffers, so the whole body suffers.

1 Cor 12: –

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many members, yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those members of the body that we think less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our less respectable members are treated with greater respect; 24 whereas our more respectable members do not need this. But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, 25 that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28

The Church is called “catholic”, which means “universal”, for it belongs univerally to all people. Those who have separated from Christ’s ONE universal (Catholic) Church, are still members, however, they have separated themselves from Christ’s true Church, thus they are the separated brothers and sisters of Christ. All other “churches” are not really churches, but are Congregations, for there are not many “Brides” of Christ – only one Bride: the Catholic Church.

Trace the history of the Catholic Church and there you will trace its roots to Christ, the cornerstone, and upon the Rock, Peter, with the foundation of the Apostles.

Ephesians 2: –
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 ***built upon the foundation of the apostles ***and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling place for God.

One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church: not hundreds of thousands!! Only One,

Amen!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Irish Polock,

Great post!

The idea that this guy is open to any ideas other than those he feels forced to defend by just repeating his negative mantra over and over again - is a sad experience for me. This type of rationalization is obvious to everyone (even him) but, he is just in denial.

By the way I-P, I learned a new way to spell “D.E.K.I.A.L” …

Don’t

Even

Know

I

Am

Lying

On another topic, I seem to recall Christ telling His Disciples that if they didn’t believe He was Who He said He was … then to at least believe the works. Well, I always took that to mean He wanted us to believe Him. And, you know what - when it comes to the Eucharist, He said THIS IS MY BODY… and, I really think he wants us to believe Him on that item, too! What do you think?

God bless

I well gladly defend the Eucharist:

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. (John (RSV) 6)

64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
67 Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?”
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him. (John (RSV) 6)

Reverend, what would be your communities interpretation of this? And does your communities interpretation resemble that of the post-pentecostal Church?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Benedictus2,

This has stopped being a challenge … all you have to do is pull the trigger and you blow holes in his wet noodle presentation…! And, don’t give me that, “I can only refute what he sends out” argument …

Seriously, the denial, the repitition, the evasion and insistance that his is the only definition he will consider has moved into another category… it is starting to appear as spam.

I wishi I had a constructive insight to share with you … as the OP, your’s has been a great thread. My wish is that others would be joining in.

God bless

So now we have the truth. You do not really believe that the Bible is inerrant because you have doubts that perhaps some books that should be in have been left out.

So now we have got that settled.

But you said a few sentences above that you do not know that for a fact by casting doubt on the canon.

But for 1500 years we accepted that as the Bible. How can someone 1500 years removed from the event know which one should be admitted. For that matter, how do you know that you should only have 66 book?

That is the most illogical statement I have ever read. How can scripture be inspired by God if we do not even know what should be called Scripture?
But the canon is precisely that - the canon of Scripture.

And no it’s your belief too. Because you base your belief on 66 books that you just said at the beginning of the posts you do not even know if they are the correct 66 books.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JustaServant,

Thank you for sharing that testimonial. Welcome home!

Now the quote from Alexander Pope I am familiar with:

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring

Here is an interesting link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Essay_on_Criticism

God bless

Rev, you seem like a very sincere person. And beleive me when I say this:
I have been where you are.
I was raised Catholic, left for twenty years, spent ten as a Baptist minister, returned to the Catholic Church.
It’s not an easy thing to admit (especially at our stage of the game, being a minister), that many things do not make sense.
Instead of fighting it, which I did as well, I encourage you to read, READ, READ.
It’s said that ‘knowledge can be a dangerous thing’. That is true to an extent. But once that knowledge is instilled into your mind and soul, it cannot be easily removed.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rikkk1958,

How can anyone build another church? This Church that Christ founded on Peter has had man imitators (and Christ and the NT writers warn us about deceivers) and those who would create their own doctrine - the traditions of men - to justify themselves while denying that they are in error.

We first experience such men in Acts with the Judiazers. They are significant because they provided the controversy that brought about the First Council of Jerusalem - and the controversy was resolved by Peter’s infallable declaratory pronouncement.

And, between 33 and 400 there were at least eight groups that felt that Christ’s message through the Catholic Church was not what they wanted to hear or to let others hear.

But, I think the Judiazers set the tone for all of those who followed after them - basically: I know better than the Church of God!

God bless

As I read some of the posts, especially that of Rev Kevin, I should say that he was trying to justify his position with philosophical thinking about the Catholic Church and Christian Church as One. I think he wants to connect his church with the original Church that Jesus wanted built. He is not bound by the tradition and probably do not want to follow what the disciples said how the Church should be formed. Am I correct on this?

Isn’t that the disciples said that only one Church should stand, and the Bishops, Presbyters, Deacons, should administer the Church? Were they the people that Jesus entrusted to build His Church? I believe that the succession is the correct way of building the Church because after all Jesus appointed the one to build His church. I believe that the early Church fathers did everything what is best for the Church, and that they were right to make it as the “One and Only Church of Jesus Christ” therefore they decided to name it the Catholic Church.

Now, how can anyone just build another church without following what the disciples, and early fathers did to continue the INSTRUCTIONS of Jesus Christ. That the Church must be one in Doctrine. Besides, the Eucharistic Rite of the Church is very much alive with tradition that had been there since the beginning of the formation.

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev Kev, I am only asking because I do not know. Now according to the RCC if someone is baptised he is Baptised in the name of the Trinity. Now when you were baptised in the Baptist Church were you baptised in the same way.

Yes it was the samae way. In the name of the Trinity.

Now if so, did they know that you were baptised in the CC

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t mean dogma’s and things like that. We believe in the same God is what I meant.

If that is the case, then you are saying that Jews, Muslims and Christians belong to the same Church since we all believe in the same God?

Dogma, simply put is doctrine. The Trinity is a doctrine that the Catholic Church pronounced. That Jesus is both fully human and fully Divine is a doctrine.

So, sorry Rev Kevin but to belong to the same Church means to believe in the same dogma. That is why Baptists are not Catholics and neither are they Methodists because Baptists have their own set of doctrines.

 

[benedictus2]

Having had a number of ocassions to discus the Singular truth with Rev. Kevin, and having litle or no effect on his personal opinions, I nevertheless enter into this dialog with a question.

IF Christ did not start the Catholic Church; then who did? When? and How?

Surely there must exist somewhere a bit of evidene to suport such a position.

God Bless,
Pat

Joe has asked him the same thing. He has yet to answer.

 

[rev_kevin]

Rev. Kevin, this is the closest you came to answering the following question: please give me the name of the man or men that founded the CC in communion with Rome, and when:

Communion
noun
(Christianity) a group of Christians with a common religious faith who practice the same rites

Jesus started the Church. Not saying the Catholic Church mind you, just His CHURCH. Your doctrine says the Catholic Church, for you thats fine, but the Bible only states HIs Church. I hope this answers your question on this matter once and for all. If not you can get the answer from the other thread you started on this subject.

 

[benedictus2]

Because I wanted to publicly profess Christ. Although my first Baptism is valid, I did not make the dicesssion to be Baptized then.

So the only way to publicly confess Christ is to be baptized?

 

[rev_kevin]

So the only way to publicly confess Christ is to be baptized?

I wanted to do it that way. Is that OK with you.

 

[benedictus2]

Jesus started the Church. Not saying the Catholic Church mind you, just His CHURCH.

Good Jesus started His Church.

If it is not the Catholic Church then which one is it?

And now It is not this amorphous body of believers. Acts is very clear that this Church is very physical. That those who belonged to this Church consisted the household of God.

So please tell me which of the current churches is this church?

One thing we can be very certain is that it can’t be a protestant Church since they were all founded by men.

So please tell me which one is it?

 

[benedictus2]

I wanted to do it that way. Is that OK with you.

That’s more than okay.

Although I wonder why you wanted to be baptized again considering that the baptists do not believe that baptism has a salvific effect.

I am sure an Altar Call would have done just as well.

 

[rev_kevin]

That’s more than okay.

Although I wonder why you wanted to be baptized again considering that the baptists do not believe that baptism has a salvific effect.

I am sure an Altar Call would have done just as well.

Is this thread about my Baptism? NO

 

[rev_kevin]

Good Jesus started His Church.

If it is not the Catholic Church then which one is it?

 

[Cinette]

Communion
noun
(Christianity) a group of Christians with a common religious faith who practice the same rites

Jesus started the Church. Not saying the Catholic Church mind you, just His CHURCH. Your doctrine says the Catholic Church, for you thats fine, but the Bible only states HIs Church. I hope this answers your question on this matter once and for all. If not you can get the answer from the other thread you started on this subject.

*As I understand it, the question was who do YOU say started the Catholic Church, name the person or persons and state when this took place.

That is the question. You keep answering a question which was answered a long time back.

*