Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[rev_kevin]

*As I understand it, the question was who do YOU say started the Catholic Church, name the person or persons and state when this took place.

That is the question. You keep answering a question which was answered a long time back.

*

Thats my answer, take it or not, thats my answer, period.

 

[joe370]

rev kevin;7509627]Communion
noun
(Christianity) a group of Christians with a common religious faith who practice the same rites

Okay…

Jesus started the Church. Not saying the Catholic Church mind you, just His CHURCH.

Okay, but this thread is about establishing specifically who founded the CC in communion with Rome.

I hope this answers your question on this matter once and for all. If not you can get the answer from the other thread you started on this subject.

Kevin, that does not answer the question. You simply claim that Jesus is not the founder of the CC, (just the church) - so who is the founder of the CC, and when did he establish the CC in Communion with Rome? Again, I don’t want to get on your nerves, so if you do not want to answer the question, just say so!!!

 

[Cinette]

rev_kevin:
*Your answer does not make sense rev kevin, that “all good Christian churches” because the denominations are not in agreement and they were splintered precisely because of disagreements. You keep forgetting that Jesus wants His Church to be One and that he gave Peter the authority to build His Church through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Jesus knew that disagreements would abound and he established a hierarchy precisely because of this.

The one thing that one cannot forget is Jesus’ promise to be with us always and that the Holy Spirit would guide us. Guide us to the truth. For we are weak and need to be kept on track by the Spirit.

rev kevin. I think this is my last post to you because I am exhausted. You will not accept the evidence of History. You make ridiculous statements like Jesus said Believe in Me but you said you do not have to believe in Jesus’ teachings (you can go back and look at your posts). You are bent on believing in what you want* to believe and you will not look at evidence presented on this thread. You are not a legitimate debater because you go around in circles and your logic is faulty.

So I will pray for you.

God bless you
Cinette

 

[rev_kevin]

Okay…

Okay, but this thread is about establishing specifically who founded the CC in communion with Rome.

Kevin, that does not answer the question. You simply claim that Jesus is not the founder of the CC, (just the church) - so who is the founder of the CC, and when did he establish the CC in Communion with Rome? Again, I don’t want to get on your nerves, so if you do not want to answer the question, just say so!!!

How Did Your Church Begin?

33 A.D.
Roman Catholic Church (moved to Rome by Peter after he fled Jerusalem) was founded by God-made-man, Jesus Christ.
100
200
300
400
500
600
700
800
9th Century Marked The First Official Schisms Within The Church

827: Eastern Schism began by Photius of Constantinople. The primary difference in Faith at the heart of the schism was the argument over the addition of the filioque statement (Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not just the Father) to the creed. This schism eventually healed.
900

1000
1053: Eastern Schism began by Michael Caerularius of Constantinople. The primary argument was the Latin practice of fasting on Saturday and the use of unleavened bread for the Holy Eucharist. Theses two points were more for challenging the authority of the Roman Pontif. This schism eventually healed.
1100
1200

1300
1378: Death of Pope Gregory XI on 27 March, 1378 began the Western Schism. The schism came to an end in 1417.

1400
1472: Present Schism of the Eastern Church begins with the repudiation of the Council of Florence.

1500
517: Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, a former priest of the Roman Catholic Church. This marked the beginning of the Protestant Reformation

521: Anabaptist first appeared in Zwickau, in the present kingdom of Saxony. Initially, they were primarily against infant baptism.

1525: Schwenkfeldians were founded by Kaspar of Schwenkfeld, aulic councillor of Duke Frederick of Liegnitz and canon. At first he associated himself with Luther, but later opposed the latter in his Christology, as well as in his conception of the Eucharist, and his doctrine of justification.

1531: The Socinians and other Anti-Trinitarians attacked the fundamental doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. Chief founder of Anti-Trinitarians was Laelius Socinus, teacher of jurisprudence at Siena, and his nephew, Faustus Socinus.

1536: Mennonites founded by Menno Simons, a former Catholic priest and later an Anabaptist elder. They deny infant baptism and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

1534: Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded by King Henry VIII when he threw off the authority of the Pope and proclaimed himself the head of the Church in England, because the Pope refused to declare invalid his marriage with Queen Catherine.

1560: The Presbyterian denomination was begun by John Knox who was dissatisfied with Anglicanism.

1600
1608: The Baptist church was launched by John Smyth in Amsterdam, Holland.

1620: The Swiss Mennonites split into Amish or Upland Mennonites and Lowland Mennonites.

1671: Quakers were founded by John George Fox of Drayton in Leicestershire. He favored a visionary spiritualism, and found in the soul of each man a portion of the Divine intelligence. All are allowed to preach, according as the spirit incites them.

1700
1744: The Methodist church was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England.

1774: The Unitarians were founded by Theophilus Lindley in London.

1784: Episcopalian denomination was begun by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.

1787: The founder of The Salvation Army is William Booth, who quit the Anglicans, and then the Methodists, and set up his own version of Christianity.

1800
1822: Mormons founded by Joseph Smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.

1872: The Jehovah’s Witness Church was developed by Charles Russell.

1879: Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy began the Christian Scientist religion basing it upon an outright denial of Original Sin and its effects.

1896: Ballinger Booth, the son of William Booth, quit The Salvation Army and started his own church.

The Seventh-Day Adventists, the Church of Christ, The Church of the Nazarene, or any of the various Pentecostal Churches, etc. are also among the hundreds of new churches founded by men within the past 150 years or so.

1900

2000
Over 33,000 Sects “Scattered” Outside The One Church Founded By Christ

 

[joe370]

Kevin, it’s not my church; it’s Jesus’ church. Jesus said: I will build MY church, not Joe’s church. LOL…So you do believe that the CC in communion with Rome was founded by God-made-man, Jesus Christ. I didn’t care if you believed that to be true, I just wanted your honest opinion. If you feel the church to which you belong is where the house of the living God and the pillar and foundation of truth can be found, with all your heart soul and mind, brother, you are home in my opinion…Thanks for answering the question…

How Did Your Church Begin?

33 A.D.
Roman Catholic Church (moved to Rome by Peter after he fled Jerusalem) was founded by God-made-man, Jesus Christ.
100
200
300
400
500
600
700
800
9th Century Marked The First Official Schisms Within The Church

827: Eastern Schism began by Photius of Constantinople. The primary difference in Faith at the heart of the schism was the argument over the addition of the filioque statement (Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not just the Father) to the creed. This schism eventually healed.
900

1000
1053: Eastern Schism began by Michael Caerularius of Constantinople. The primary argument was the Latin practice of fasting on Saturday and the use of unleavened bread for the Holy Eucharist. Theses two points were more for challenging the authority of the Roman Pontif. This schism eventually healed.
1100
1200

1300
1378: Death of Pope Gregory XI on 27 March, 1378 began the Western Schism. The schism came to an end in 1417.

1400
1472: Present Schism of the Eastern Church begins with the repudiation of the Council of Florence.

1500
517: Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, a former priest of the Roman Catholic Church. This marked the beginning of the Protestant Reformation

521: Anabaptist first appeared in Zwickau, in the present kingdom of Saxony. Initially, they were primarily against infant baptism.

1525: Schwenkfeldians were founded by Kaspar of Schwenkfeld, aulic councillor of Duke Frederick of Liegnitz and canon. At first he associated himself with Luther, but later opposed the latter in his Christology, as well as in his conception of the Eucharist, and his doctrine of justification.

1531: The Socinians and other Anti-Trinitarians attacked the fundamental doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. Chief founder of Anti-Trinitarians was Laelius Socinus, teacher of jurisprudence at Siena, and his nephew, Faustus Socinus.

1536: Mennonites founded by Menno Simons, a former Catholic priest and later an Anabaptist elder. They deny infant baptism and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

1534: Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded by King Henry VIII when he threw off the authority of the Pope and proclaimed himself the head of the Church in England, because the Pope refused to declare invalid his marriage with Queen Catherine.

1560: The Presbyterian denomination was begun by John Knox who was dissatisfied with Anglicanism.

1600
1608: The Baptist church was launched by John Smyth in Amsterdam, Holland.

1620: The Swiss Mennonites split into Amish or Upland Mennonites and Lowland Mennonites.

1671: Quakers were founded by John George Fox of Drayton in Leicestershire. He favored a visionary spiritualism, and found in the soul of each man a portion of the Divine intelligence. All are allowed to preach, according as the spirit incites them.

1700
1744: The Methodist church was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England.

1774: The Unitarians were founded by Theophilus Lindley in London.

1784: Episcopalian denomination was begun by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.

1787: The founder of The Salvation Army is William Booth, who quit the Anglicans, and then the Methodists, and set up his own version of Christianity.

1800
1822: Mormons founded by Joseph Smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.

1872: The Jehovah’s Witness Church was developed by Charles Russell.

1879: Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy began the Christian Scientist religion basing it upon an outright denial of Original Sin and its effects.

1896: Ballinger Booth, the son of William Booth, quit The Salvation Army and started his own church.

The Seventh-Day Adventists, the Church of Christ, The Church of the Nazarene, or any of the various Pentecostal Churches, etc. are also among the hundreds of new churches founded by men within the past 150 years or so.

1900

2000
Over 33,000 Sects “Scattered” Outside The One Church Founded By Christ

 

[rev_kevin]

*Your answer does not make sense rev kevin, that “all good Christian churches” because the denominations are not in agreement and they were splintered precisely because of disagreements. You keep forgetting that Jesus wants His Church to be One and that he gave Peter the authority to build His Church through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Jesus knew that disagreements would abound and he established a hierarchy precisely because of this.

The one thing that one cannot forget is Jesus’ promise to be with us always and that the Holy Spirit would guide us. Guide us to the truth. For we are weak and need to be kept on track by the Spirit.

rev kevin. I think this is my last post to you because I am exhausted. You will not accept the evidence of History. You make ridiculous statements like Jesus said Believe in Me but you said you do not have to believe in Jesus’ teachings (you can go back and look at your posts). You are bent on believing in what you want* to believe and you will not look at evidence presented on this thread. You are not a legitimate debater because you go around in circles and your logic is faulty.

So I will pray for you.

God bless you
Cinette

You stick to your beliefs and I will stick to mine.
Thats right I believe what I want to believe. I have looked at the evidence, man when you are out numbered 50-1 thats all you have to look at is the evidence, and I just don’t see the claim that Jesus started the CC. Just because the CC claims it don’t mean its true, {I know what will be said to me about the word TRUE but it would be just repeating the same thing over and over again just like I have been accused of doing, HMM funny how some can do it and others can’t}, just like I claim Jesus didn’t start the CC don’t mean I’m true. By the way I never claimed to be a debater. As I have said before, my logic is faulty because its not what you believe. I have looked at my posts and I don’t see where I said I don’t have to believe in Jesus teachings. Oh well I won’t hear from you so
SEE YA

P.S. Thanks for the prayers

 

[rev_kevin]

Kevin, it’s not my church; it’s Jesus’ church. Jesus said: I

will build MY church, not Joe’s church. LOL…

Why not? Instead of saying, EAT AT JOE’S we could say, WORSHIP AT JOE’S. Just kidding.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Only the Church founded by Jesus Christ has the authority to write, select, canonize, and teach Scripture. Catholic bishops canonized 27 of the Church’s own writings and named them the New Testament. At the same time, the Church canonized 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint that she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles and named them the Old Testament. She named her entire collection of sacred Scripture tá Biblia, the Little Books, the Bible. The Church had been teaching nearly four centuries when she compiled and canonized the Bible.

So – the Catholic Church (the Apostles and their disciples) wrote Scripture and the successors to the Apostles – the bishops of the Church – decided on the canon, the list of books to be declared scriptural and infallible. If Scripture is infallible, then its cause, the Catholic Church, must also be infallible. An effect (Scripture) cannot be greater than its cause (the Catholic Church).

Again – only the Church founded by Jesus Christ has the authority to write, select, canonize, and teach Scripture.

Those who accept the Scriptures and reject the Catholic Church are totally illogical. They separate the Scripture from its source. The Church was God’s chosen Agency to write the New Testament and canonize and compile the Bible. That is a fact of history.

Jim Dandy

 

[Cinette]

Kevin, it’s not my church; it’s Jesus’ church. Jesus said: I will build MY church, not Joe’s church. LOL…So you do believe that the CC in communion with Rome was founded by God-made-man, Jesus Christ. I didn’t care if you believed that to be true, I just wanted your honest opinion. If you feel the church to which you belong is where the house of the living God and the pillar and foundation of truth can be found, with all your heart soul and mind, brother, you are home in my opinion…Thanks for answering the question…

*Joe - he said he is Baptist but is not in agreement with all the teachings of his church!

*

 

[rev_kevin]

*Joe - he said he is Baptist but is not in agreement with all the teachings of his church!

*

I have mantained here on the CAF that I believe in some of the CC teachings an some I don’t.

 

[benedictus2]

I have said what Church time and time again and won’t say it anymore because if I do then I would, as many here and you included, say, All he does is repeat the same thing over and over again. If you want to know what Church, go through the posts and find it.

Your answer was the Church is all Christianity as we know it now.

But, using the definition you gave, I have shown you that it just is not true.

This is something that you have not addressed. We are not one Church. There is no such thing as one Christian Church.

So I am sorry to say but you have not answered the question at all.

All good Christian Church’s are his.

Well NOT according to the Bible. According to the Bible He established only one church. So, you may not like this but the protestant churches just don’t qualify.

It is like this.

The Father built a house on sure foundation. He gathered all his children into this house. He said you must all remain together because this house is big enough to accommodate everyone and I want to see you all grow in this Household of Mine. This house is where everyone lived and had their meals and spent time with the Father.

Then later on, the children had disagreements and some decided to leave the house because they did not like some of their brothers and sisters.

They gathered some wood from the garage, got some stuff from the house and decided to build their own with some things they got from the original house. But even in this house, the people didn’t get along so some left again, got some stuff from this house and started setting up shop somewhere. And it continued to be repeated to this day.

Did the Father build that second or third or 33,000th house? No. Those houses were built against His expressed wishes. Those houses were built against His will.

But the Father allowed this because in the end He will gather everyone back to His house. He has already started doing that by the number of wonderful converts who have decided to come home.

Through Christ

It seems not because those men who built them went against His expressed wish that there be only one Church.

They established their own churches in defiance of Christ’s will.

 

[benedictus2]

Jesus started the Church. Not saying the Catholic Church mind you, just His CHURCH.

Exactly! Singular. Not Churches. And that was how it was for the first 1000 years.

Your doctrine says the Catholic Church, for you thats fine, but the Bible only states HIs Church. I hope this answers your question on this matter once and for all. If not you can get the answer from the other thread you started on this subject.

It’s not about “for us it’s fine”. The truth is the truth even if it is not fine with some people.

 

[benedictus2]

Is this thread about my Baptism? NO

Touche! :tiphat:

 

[benedictus2]

How Did Your Church Begin?

33 A.D.
Roman Catholic Church (moved to Rome by Peter after he fled Jerusalem) was founded by God-made-man, Jesus Christ.
100
200
300
400
500
600
700
800
9th Century Marked The First Official Schisms Within The Church

827: Eastern Schism began by Photius of Constantinople. The primary difference in Faith at the heart of the schism was the argument over the addition of the filioque statement (Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not just the Father) to the creed. This schism eventually healed.
900

1000
1053: Eastern Schism began by Michael Caerularius of Constantinople. The primary argument was the Latin practice of fasting on Saturday and the use of unleavened bread for the Holy Eucharist. Theses two points were more for challenging the authority of the Roman Pontif. This schism eventually healed.
1100
1200

1300
1378: Death of Pope Gregory XI on 27 March, 1378 began the Western Schism. The schism came to an end in 1417.

1400
1472: Present Schism of the Eastern Church begins with the repudiation of the Council of Florence.

1500
517: Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, a former priest of the Roman Catholic Church. This marked the beginning of the Protestant Reformation

521: Anabaptist first appeared in Zwickau, in the present kingdom of Saxony. Initially, they were primarily against infant baptism.

1525: Schwenkfeldians were founded by Kaspar of Schwenkfeld, aulic councillor of Duke Frederick of Liegnitz and canon. At first he associated himself with Luther, but later opposed the latter in his Christology, as well as in his conception of the Eucharist, and his doctrine of justification.

1531: The Socinians and other Anti-Trinitarians attacked the fundamental doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. Chief founder of Anti-Trinitarians was Laelius Socinus, teacher of jurisprudence at Siena, and his nephew, Faustus Socinus.

1536: Mennonites founded by Menno Simons, a former Catholic priest and later an Anabaptist elder. They deny infant baptism and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

1534: Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded by King Henry VIII when he threw off the authority of the Pope and proclaimed himself the head of the Church in England, because the Pope refused to declare invalid his marriage with Queen Catherine.

1560: The Presbyterian denomination was begun by John Knox who was dissatisfied with Anglicanism.

1600
1608: The Baptist church was launched by John Smyth in Amsterdam, Holland.

1620: The Swiss Mennonites split into Amish or Upland Mennonites and Lowland Mennonites.

1671: Quakers were founded by John George Fox of Drayton in Leicestershire. He favored a visionary spiritualism, and found in the soul of each man a portion of the Divine intelligence. All are allowed to preach, according as the spirit incites them.

1700
1744: The Methodist church was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England.

1774: The Unitarians were founded by Theophilus Lindley in London.

1784: Episcopalian denomination was begun by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.

1787: The founder of The Salvation Army is William Booth, who quit the Anglicans, and then the Methodists, and set up his own version of Christianity.

1800
1822: Mormons founded by Joseph Smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.

1872: The Jehovah’s Witness Church was developed by Charles Russell.

1879: Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy began the Christian Scientist religion basing it upon an outright denial of Original Sin and its effects.

1896: Ballinger Booth, the son of William Booth, quit The Salvation Army and started his own church.

The Seventh-Day Adventists, the Church of Christ, The Church of the Nazarene, or any of the various Pentecostal Churches, etc. are also among the hundreds of new churches founded by men within the past 150 years or so.

1900

2000
Over 33,000 Sects “Scattered” Outside The One Church Founded By Christ

I sort of had to do a double take to make sure that you have not misquoted someone and failed to put it in brackets.

Is this really your post?

Do you believe this to be true? Because if so, then I am puzzled why you insists on remaining away from Christ’s Church considering you seem to genuinely love our Lord.

 

[pablope]

Touche! :tiphat:

Hi, benedictus…will chime in a little late…i know there was some discussion about the Church at Rome and the question of Peter being in Rome…

I had to re-search for this…and here it is from Clement of Alexandria…

St. Clement of Alexandria, relying on the authority of “the elder presbyters”, tells us that, when Peter had publicly preached in Rome, many of those who heard him exhorted Mark, as one who had long followed Peter and remembered what he had said, to write it down, and that Mark “composed the Gospel and gave it to those who had asked for it” (Eusebius, Church History VI.14).

Origen says (ibid., VI, xxv) that Mark wrote as Peter directed him (os Petros huphegesato auto), and Eusebius himself reports the tradition that Peter approved or authorized Mark’s work (Church History II.15).

 

[benedictus2]

As I read some of the posts, especially that of Rev Kevin, I should say that he was trying to justify his position with philosophical thinking about the Catholic Church and Christian Church as One. I think he wants to connect his church with the original Church that Jesus wanted built. He is not bound by the tradition and probably do not want to follow what the disciples said how the Church should be formed. Am I correct on this?

Yes, essentially that is what he is trying to do.

Isn’t that the disciples said that only one Church should stand, and the Bishops, Presbyters, Deacons, should administer the Church? Were they the people that Jesus entrusted to build His Church? I believe that the succession is the correct way of building the Church because after all Jesus appointed the one to build His church. I believe that the early Church fathers did everything what is best for the Church, and that they were right to make it as the “One and Only Church of Jesus Christ” therefore they decided to name it the Catholic Church.

Now, how can anyone just build another church without following what the disciples, and early fathers did to continue the INSTRUCTIONS of Jesus Christ. That the Church must be one in Doctrine. Besides, the Eucharistic Rite of the Church is very much alive with tradition that had been there since the beginning of the formation.

And that is what we have been trying to get across over these many pages.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi, benedictus…will chime in a little late…i know there was some discussion about the Church at Rome and the question of Peter being in Rome…

I had to re-search for this…and here it is from Clement of Alexandria…

St. Clement of Alexandria, relying on the authority of “the elder presbyters”, tells us that, when Peter had publicly preached in Rome, many of those who heard him exhorted Mark, as one who had long followed Peter and remembered what he had said, to write it down, and that Mark “composed the Gospel and gave it to those who had asked for it” (Eusebius, Church History VI.14).

Origen says (ibid., VI, xxv) that Mark wrote as Peter directed him (os Petros huphegesato auto), and Eusebius himself reports the tradition that Peter approved or authorized Mark’s work (Church History II.15).

Thanks for that Pablo.

I just came across that in Stephen Ray’s “Upon this Rock”.

It is interesting to know that the Gospel of Mark is St Peter’s account.

I think Rev Kevin does agree now that Peter was in Rome.

 

[benedictus2]

Thank-you again for your wonderful judgement of my understanding of the faith, it is always gvien with such love.

Rinnie, the judgment was based on what you wrote. They are your words.

When ST Paul refers to Jesus as the bride is he married to himself? What kind of question is that? You say you understand the Church.

Back track to when you said that the Church is the Second Person of the Trinity. That question was in relation to that ridiculous statement. Nowhere in Catholic Teaching will you find that it says that the Church is GOD which is what you claim. Comprende?

You say you have it all figured out. Then I am happy for you, and you are the first person who has it all figured out. BUt it sure is not Catholic Teaching thats for sure. None I ever had, and you can attack the Catholic School and CCC also.

Tell me in which post I said I had it all figured out.

Because we are taught the CHURCH is A GREAT MYSTERY. And when Christ compared himself and the bride it was not in a marriage like being married in this world. Of course you do seem to know and correct me so often.

But we are NEVER taught that the Church is co-eternal with the Father and is the Second Person of the God-head.

Even elementary logic based on scripture proves that false.

What I was taught is the CHURCH is MANY THINGS. The RCC says the Church is the Holy Mother Church also, does that means it Mary, I am sure you will accuse me of that next.

No I won’t because that is true Catholic teaching. But that the Church is God and is the Second Person of the Trinity is NOT.

When St.Paul talks about the NATURE of the Church and it RELATIONSHIP to the bride is that of a BRIDE whom CHRIST LOVES DEEPLY. So much does he love the Church that he handed himself over for her.

For goodness sakes when he says she is the bride it is his LOVE that makes her the splendent bride, the Church in Splendor without spot, or wrinkle or any such thing, Holy without blemish. (Ephesians 5:27). SO I have no idea how this can have have Christ marrying himself. It is you who have gone beyond absurd.

Maybe instead of being in such a hurry in condemning me, maybe hit the word and the understanding’s the teaching’s of the Church yourself first.

I was not in a hurry condemning you. You condemn yourself by what you write. And not only once. You keep repeating the same heretical line.

 

[benedictus2]

I feel all Christian Churches fall into this catigory. And yes I am home.
Thanks for the discussion I know I can be bull headed but this got me thinking about how I should look at others views on religion.

Knowledge of truth is not based on feelings. It is apprehended through reason. The statement that “all Christian Churches fall into this category” just does not stack up to reason if we take into account the Bible.

 

[rev_kevin]

benedictus2;7510398]
Is this really your post?
yes it is

Do you believe this to be true? Because if so, then I am puzzled why you insists on remaining away from Christ’s Church considering you seem to genuinely love our Lord.

You know what I say the Church is. I am a Christian, one of his children and a part of his family. Therefore I am a part of his Church.