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benedictus2
Guest
I thought I’d highlight those because I think they make a very good point and it might get lost in the discourse.
- Status
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
rev kevin,
If as you say, Christ founded the Christian Church which you believe to be a Church of all believers, then why do you exclude the Catholic Church? That seems to be a ‘subtle’ way to say Catholics aren’t really Christian.
The first recognizable Church was the Catholic Church and it was the only Church for hundreds of years. Some of the denominations of today came directly from the Catholic Church and some came from some of those denominations. Either way all Churches have roots through the Catholic Church.
Now, what you’ve maintained has changed, either in part or wholly, to the point it appears to not being able to find any common ground whatsoever with Catholics on this subject. That has appearances of being ‘anti’???
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tqualey
Guest
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placido
Guest
Funny! Since there is no scpriture saying Peter went to Rome and there is no scripture saying Peter died and how he died, he must be alive somewhere. Otherwise we would have scripture telling us where and how he died.
That is really funny!!!
placido
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tqualey
Guest
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placido
Guest
Did Matthew and John enumerate in their writtings all the places they have been to? Why is this strange requirement being placed on Peter?
placido
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rinnie
Guest
I am not sure if I totally agree with the Rev. Let me tell you why… By George, he’s right. :yup: God is more interested in our heart than our doctrines and church affiliation.
Remember I asked you to think all week about the Sacraments? I still want you to do that. Okay?
Now the reason I believe that our doctrines and Church affiliation is so important is the reason I believe that Christ is the Church.
The Church is the extension of Christ’s incarnation, and the extension takes place through the SACRAMENTS.
That is why I wanted to show you from the beginning. God knows that we as humans need ordinary means. That is why he uses ordinary means to accomplish extra-ordinary means.
God sent his Sun who is the Redeemer of the world, but also the Creator. So the one who made Spirit and matter redeems spirit and matter.
Now here is the point I was showing you from the beginning. Remember how I told you Jesus is the same the 2nd person of the Trinity today just like when he was in the human body. Just because his human body is seated at the right hand of the Father, does not mean that he cannot use Spiritual matter to continue his work.
THe reason that the CC is Jesus CHrist is because he is alive today. Through the Eucharist. That is why there is no Salvation outside of the CC, because there is no Salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Salvation is by the means of the Sacraments, and the Living CHrist is the EUCHARIST.
THe Eucharist is no less the body and blood of CHrist then his Human body was the body and blood of Christ.
So just as he used physical matter or physical reality to acomplish our redemption. He continues to do so through the CHURCH. THe CHURCH is the extension of CHrist’s incarnation.
That is why we also say the CHurch is also a Sacrament. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by CHrist to give Grace. But the outward sign is just an ordinary means to accomplish an extra-ordinary means.
The reason the Church to Me as a Catholic does not have the same meaning to you is because I know that when the Priest through ordinary means, uses extra-ordinary means the Sacrament of Holy Orders to turn ordinary bread into the actual BODY OF CHRIST.
That is why the Eucharist is again the Center of our Faith. Because CHrist is the Center. The CHurch is made up of what? THe body of Christ right? How is this possible? The Eucharist!!
That is how we become one body of believers and are united into one body of Christ through the Eucharist.
While the CHurch as a building is just a building, the Church as Christ is the Eucharist. That is why we say that the bride and the bridegroom are united as Christ and his Church are united. They become ONE. It is because of the Eucharist.
Just like the sacrament of baptism is ordinary water it become extra- ordinary by the Grace that is poured out into it by the Sacrament of Baptism. When it is done in the name of the Trinity.
Yet as great as the Sacraments are they are not a permanent institution. When Christ comes in glory all Sacraments will cease, and it will be Christ in the body (human) as he is in the Body (Spiritual) in the Church.
Now we know him through signs, as through a glass darkly. (1 Cor 13:12) Then we will SEE Him as He IS (1 Jn 3:2) and we will have no need of signs.
That is why Rev a Church cannot save you when it does not have the Sacraments to give it life. Because it is CHrist living in the CHurch that gives us eternal life.
Reading scripture or listening to ewtn does not save me. The Sacraments which are the Core of our faith, are the CC which in turn are Jesus Christ.
Just like they killed his human body and it rose again, our human body will die, but our eternal body our soul will never die. That is why just as when we die our Human body will again rise, Our soul will not die. At least we pray it will not die, the only way it will die is if we are in sin.
But as our soul rises with Christ and our human body is left behind, Christ left his soul here and his human body is in Heaven. But he is the same body in the Eucharist. That is why we must eat the bread of life. It is called food for the soul. It is that same intimacy that we have with him in the Eucharist that we will have with him when he comes again in the 2n person of the Trinity which is Christ Body and Soul.
People say that if they could SEE him like before they would believe. But that is not true, People did see, and still did not believe. It is Grace and faith.
Like Jesus said blessed are they who believe (the EUCHARIST) and do not see. We do not have to see CHRIST in the CHURCH in the 2nd person to know that he is there. We know that he is as much the 2nd person in the Eucharist as he was the 2nd person in physical reality, He is still Jesus Christ. One in being with the Father. Christ is as much God in the Eucharist as he is in the 2nd Person. Nothing has changed.
Can you understand what I am saying Rev?
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rinnie
Guest
Rev Kev, Please understand I am by no means putting down your Church or your faith. I would never do that. And I am sure your Preacher is wonderful. And could possibly be a better person then some of our Priests.
But what your Preacher cannot do is change Ordinary bread and wine into Christ. Again it is through that Sacrament Holy Orders that makes a ordinary person, who has sin, a Priest, in a Super natural way act as the Person of CHrist.
Am I saying the Priest is Christ
No, But at that moment he has the Power from God.
That is another way that Christ uses the Natural to accomplish the super-natural. He uses a human to accomplish the divine.
The reason the CC is the Actual Presense of Christ, is that a human person, takes ordinary bread and opens up heaven and joins heaven and earth, It is the actual heaven opening up in the Eucharist and CHrist comming down in the form of Bread and wine, That is why the Eucharist is the living Body the living bread that comes down from heaven.
That is why the Church is also called a mystery and many thing’s. The Church is called the Body of Christ because the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, and we are united to the Church or the Body of Christ as we say by the Eucharist. The Eucharist is how we become one in his body and one with Christ.
That is why we must have the Sacrament of the Eucharist or the CHurch as we say to give us eternal life. Christ said you must eat my body and drink my blood to have eternal life. If not we have no life in us.
I know this is difficult to understand. And remember Peter didn’t get it at first either. Remember when Jesus said that many walked away. Remember he said Peter are you going to go also. While in Peter’s defense he did not understand it, it was his faith that made him say, Where would I go.
What Peter was really saying is I don’t get it either, but I believe you. You are God. But it was when the Holy Spirit entered into Peter that he got the full understanding.
That is why when my husband and I got married he was protestant he wanted me to go to church with him. My Dad said sure, you may go. But you must also go to the CC. I was like why? That is when he said because of the Eucharist.
Jesus did not say in order to have eternal life you must just be Baptised. He said you must also receive the Eucharist, (a sacrament) confess your sin (confession a sacrament)
The true Church has all of the Sacraments and the Presense of Christ who dwells by means of the Eucharist. And where CHrist dwells God dwells. Because CHrist is God.
But what your Preacher cannot do is change Ordinary bread and wine into Christ. Again it is through that Sacrament Holy Orders that makes a ordinary person, who has sin, a Priest, in a Super natural way act as the Person of CHrist.
Am I saying the Priest is Christ
No, But at that moment he has the Power from God.That is another way that Christ uses the Natural to accomplish the super-natural. He uses a human to accomplish the divine.
The reason the CC is the Actual Presense of Christ, is that a human person, takes ordinary bread and opens up heaven and joins heaven and earth, It is the actual heaven opening up in the Eucharist and CHrist comming down in the form of Bread and wine, That is why the Eucharist is the living Body the living bread that comes down from heaven.
That is why the Church is also called a mystery and many thing’s. The Church is called the Body of Christ because the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, and we are united to the Church or the Body of Christ as we say by the Eucharist. The Eucharist is how we become one in his body and one with Christ.
That is why we must have the Sacrament of the Eucharist or the CHurch as we say to give us eternal life. Christ said you must eat my body and drink my blood to have eternal life. If not we have no life in us.
I know this is difficult to understand. And remember Peter didn’t get it at first either. Remember when Jesus said that many walked away. Remember he said Peter are you going to go also. While in Peter’s defense he did not understand it, it was his faith that made him say, Where would I go.
What Peter was really saying is I don’t get it either, but I believe you. You are God. But it was when the Holy Spirit entered into Peter that he got the full understanding.
That is why when my husband and I got married he was protestant he wanted me to go to church with him. My Dad said sure, you may go. But you must also go to the CC. I was like why? That is when he said because of the Eucharist.
Jesus did not say in order to have eternal life you must just be Baptised. He said you must also receive the Eucharist, (a sacrament) confess your sin (confession a sacrament)
The true Church has all of the Sacraments and the Presense of Christ who dwells by means of the Eucharist. And where CHrist dwells God dwells. Because CHrist is God.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Rev Kev, this is in response to your post #714. The way you embeded everything, nothing showed up when I clicked to respond.
This is post 1 of 2 … I tried for brevity, but, the factual material needs to be presented. It is your choice to believe as you will - but, the facts of names, dates and events are there for the world to see because they stand on their own.
So to clearly summarize from what appears to be from postings you made but claim to not believe and from those you may believe … we have the following:
1.) Christ DID NOT found the Catholic Church. He founded a Church and from this - all churches have eventually developed to what we have today.
2.) The Catholic Church was either founded by Constantine at the Council of Nicea about 325AD or
3,) The Catholic Church was founded by Pope Leo I prior to 461AD
4.) Prior to 325AD the “Church was pure” - after this date we have what we have…
Hopefully this is an accurate summary of what you have said to date. I realize that it may change - but, so far, this is what you claim to have presented now reduced to simple sentences.
As I understand it, the first Baptist congregatons were organized in the 17th Century. So, we really have about 1200 years or so from Leo I to John Smyth in 1612 to address…
In my opinion, your thesis fails for the following reasons:
1.) Matthew 16 clearly identifies that Christ gave the Keys - symbol of the Authority Christ had just given to Peter - to one man. There were not eleven other sets of Keys, nor were there a chest full of keys for people to take when they wished to leave the Church founded by Christ on Peter (ah, and that would be the Catholic Church…
)
2.) Christianity was alive and well - but under serious persecution - prior to Constantine ascending the throne. “The last two great persecutions were all-out assaults, total war against the Catholic Church; they aimed to destroy Christianity, root and branch. The first was launched by the Emperor Decius in A.D. 250, and an even greater one was unleashed by the Emperor Diocletian in 303. Both were intended to be empire-wide, and both were carried forward determinedly for the better part of a decade.” For some insightful reading go to this link: catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9612ec.asp
There is ample evidence that it was the Catholic Church (not some vague ‘Christian’ entity that the Romans had set there murderous eyes on: Peter and the next 13 Popes suffered martyrdom, evidence of the Mass being celebrated in the catacombs (that is the Real Presence - not some memorial service with bread and grape juice) and multiple religious drawings indicating reverance for these holy martyrs.
In 311 Constantine (along with two other generals) took over the Roman Empire and the orders of Decius and Diocletian were revoked. Catholics were now free to practice their religion. So, actually, all Constantine did at this point was to stop the persecutions of a group that had been in un-interruped existance for the past 280 years. This is significant for two reasons - 1.) It shows that the Catholic Church (lead by the Bishop of Rome, celebrating the Seven Sacraments, having religious articles and pictures - some of which can be viewed today in the catacombs - and worshiping Christ through the Church He founded on Peter) WAS PERSECUTED by many Roman rulers yet thrived! and 2.) Was acknowledged by Constantine to have existed and he granted them freedom to practice therir faith.
The Council of Nicea’s primary focus was addressing a heresy from Arius - not establishing or re-founding the Catholic Church. Please note, when this Council met - there were already Catholic Bishops present. Constantine did not create these Bishops - they and their sees had been in existence for hundreds of years. The 20 Canons of the Council Nicea list all that the Council did (here is a link: newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm) and establishing the Catholic Church (previously accomplished by Christ on Peter…) is not listed. So, if you expect the idea of the founding of the Catholic Church to have its origin in this Catholic Church Council – then you will need to provide evidence.
CONTINUED -
This is post 1 of 2 … I tried for brevity, but, the factual material needs to be presented. It is your choice to believe as you will - but, the facts of names, dates and events are there for the world to see because they stand on their own.
So to clearly summarize from what appears to be from postings you made but claim to not believe and from those you may believe … we have the following:
1.) Christ DID NOT found the Catholic Church. He founded a Church and from this - all churches have eventually developed to what we have today.
2.) The Catholic Church was either founded by Constantine at the Council of Nicea about 325AD or
3,) The Catholic Church was founded by Pope Leo I prior to 461AD
4.) Prior to 325AD the “Church was pure” - after this date we have what we have…
Hopefully this is an accurate summary of what you have said to date. I realize that it may change - but, so far, this is what you claim to have presented now reduced to simple sentences.
As I understand it, the first Baptist congregatons were organized in the 17th Century. So, we really have about 1200 years or so from Leo I to John Smyth in 1612 to address…
In my opinion, your thesis fails for the following reasons:
1.) Matthew 16 clearly identifies that Christ gave the Keys - symbol of the Authority Christ had just given to Peter - to one man. There were not eleven other sets of Keys, nor were there a chest full of keys for people to take when they wished to leave the Church founded by Christ on Peter (ah, and that would be the Catholic Church…
)2.) Christianity was alive and well - but under serious persecution - prior to Constantine ascending the throne. “The last two great persecutions were all-out assaults, total war against the Catholic Church; they aimed to destroy Christianity, root and branch. The first was launched by the Emperor Decius in A.D. 250, and an even greater one was unleashed by the Emperor Diocletian in 303. Both were intended to be empire-wide, and both were carried forward determinedly for the better part of a decade.” For some insightful reading go to this link: catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9612ec.asp
There is ample evidence that it was the Catholic Church (not some vague ‘Christian’ entity that the Romans had set there murderous eyes on: Peter and the next 13 Popes suffered martyrdom, evidence of the Mass being celebrated in the catacombs (that is the Real Presence - not some memorial service with bread and grape juice) and multiple religious drawings indicating reverance for these holy martyrs.
In 311 Constantine (along with two other generals) took over the Roman Empire and the orders of Decius and Diocletian were revoked. Catholics were now free to practice their religion. So, actually, all Constantine did at this point was to stop the persecutions of a group that had been in un-interruped existance for the past 280 years. This is significant for two reasons - 1.) It shows that the Catholic Church (lead by the Bishop of Rome, celebrating the Seven Sacraments, having religious articles and pictures - some of which can be viewed today in the catacombs - and worshiping Christ through the Church He founded on Peter) WAS PERSECUTED by many Roman rulers yet thrived! and 2.) Was acknowledged by Constantine to have existed and he granted them freedom to practice therir faith.
The Council of Nicea’s primary focus was addressing a heresy from Arius - not establishing or re-founding the Catholic Church. Please note, when this Council met - there were already Catholic Bishops present. Constantine did not create these Bishops - they and their sees had been in existence for hundreds of years. The 20 Canons of the Council Nicea list all that the Council did (here is a link: newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm) and establishing the Catholic Church (previously accomplished by Christ on Peter…) is not listed. So, if you expect the idea of the founding of the Catholic Church to have its origin in this Catholic Church Council – then you will need to provide evidence.
CONTINUED -
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Rev Kev,
This is post 2 of 2 …
Concerning Pope Leo I (d 461) lead a very interesting life in most interesting times. Here is a link on his life: newadvent.org/cathen/09154b.htm Pope Leo I’s goals were to keep the Catholic Church safe from the heresies that were bombarding it like Palegianism and Manichaeism. This tells me that the Catholic Church was well enough established that fighting heresy had become a recurrent activity. But, what be even more interesting is that Pope Leo I had something that just may surprise you – he had a predecessor … actually, Leo was the 45 man to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Here is the list of Pope (sorry for the excessive cut ‘n paste…):
The Catholic Church has always taught that sex is reserved for marriage and that marriage is between one man and one woman, that homosexuality is sinful, that murder and theft are wrong and that we are to confess our sins to the priest.
Interestingly enough, there is NOT ONE Protestant Church and can say “Amen!” to just this meager list. But, it is from this vast treasure of the Truth of God from the Catholic Chruch that the Protestants left to establish the traditions of men.
God bless
This is post 2 of 2 …
Concerning Pope Leo I (d 461) lead a very interesting life in most interesting times. Here is a link on his life: newadvent.org/cathen/09154b.htm Pope Leo I’s goals were to keep the Catholic Church safe from the heresies that were bombarding it like Palegianism and Manichaeism. This tells me that the Catholic Church was well enough established that fighting heresy had become a recurrent activity. But, what be even more interesting is that Pope Leo I had something that just may surprise you – he had a predecessor … actually, Leo was the 45 man to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth. Here is the list of Pope (sorry for the excessive cut ‘n paste…):
- St. Peter (32-67)
- St. Linus (67-76)
- St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
- St. Clement I (88-97)
- St. Evaristus (97-105)
- St. Alexander I (105-115)
- St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
- St. Telesphorus (125-136)
- St. Hyginus (136-140)
- St. Pius I (140-155)
- St. Anicetus (155-166)
- St. Soter (166-175)
- St. Eleutherius (175-189)
- St. Victor I (189-199)
- St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
- St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
- St. Urban I (222-30)
- St. Pontain (230-35)
- St. Anterus (235-36)
- St. Fabian (236-50)
- St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
- St. Lucius I (253-54)
- St. Stephen I (254-257)
- St. Sixtus II (257-258)
- St. Dionysius (260-268)
- St. Felix I (269-274)
- St. Eutychian (275-283)
- St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
- St. Marcellinus (296-304)
- St. Marcellus I (308-309)
- St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
- St. Miltiades (311-14)
- St. Sylvester I (314-35)
- St. Marcus (336)
- St. Julius I (337-52)
- Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
- St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
- St. Siricius (384-99)
- St. Anastasius I (399-401)
- St. Innocent I (401-17)
- St. Zosimus (417-18)
- St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
- St. Celestine I (422-32)
- St. Sixtus III (432-40)
- St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
The Catholic Church has always taught that sex is reserved for marriage and that marriage is between one man and one woman, that homosexuality is sinful, that murder and theft are wrong and that we are to confess our sins to the priest.
Interestingly enough, there is NOT ONE Protestant Church and can say “Amen!” to just this meager list. But, it is from this vast treasure of the Truth of God from the Catholic Chruch that the Protestants left to establish the traditions of men.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Rev Kev,
Your insights are noteworthy!
Virtually everywhere you look before Pentecost, Peter is getting into some kind of trouble. I would want someone not only stable, but intelligent, able to meet the public well, got along with authority… you know, based on human judgment criteria.
Fortunately, I was not involved…
The Power of God is behind the Catholic Church - not the power of men. In my opinion, God chose Peter to lead the Catholic Church because he was so outrageously weak, prone to error and even cowardice! Why? To show the world that this is God’s Church and not some creation of mere men. The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and that is why it will not teach error… not because it has intelligent men at the helm. Now, having bright guys in charge is helpful - but, it is far better to have saintly ones!
Hope this gives you a new insight into the Peter prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit on that First Penetcost Sunday.
.
God bless
Your insights are noteworthy!
Actually, from reading about Peter and how he bragged, misspoke, was slow at just about everything, then he denied Christ - if it were left up to me, I would not have put him in charge of fish market
Virtually everywhere you look before Pentecost, Peter is getting into some kind of trouble. I would want someone not only stable, but intelligent, able to meet the public well, got along with authority… you know, based on human judgment criteria.Fortunately, I was not involved…
The Power of God is behind the Catholic Church - not the power of men. In my opinion, God chose Peter to lead the Catholic Church because he was so outrageously weak, prone to error and even cowardice! Why? To show the world that this is God’s Church and not some creation of mere men. The Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and that is why it will not teach error… not because it has intelligent men at the helm. Now, having bright guys in charge is helpful - but, it is far better to have saintly ones!
Hope this gives you a new insight into the Peter prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit on that First Penetcost Sunday.
.
God bless
P
PbloPicasso
Guest
I mean to say that other than on the matter of faith and moral, Catholics sometimes overstate the Church’s authority. Faith and Morals are what the Church is protected from teaching wrong **(this is what ****infallibility covers). **
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Sufjon
Guest
Hi Benedictus: As far as I am aware, I don’t belong to a New Age belief of any sort. My religion is 5 or 6 thousand years old, so it’s not very new. I don’t see how my religion or any of these other points has anything to do with whether or not Jesus started the Catholic Church. He certainly didn’t start mine. As I said yesterday, I simply don’t have anything to offer on the subject. That’s for you all to sort out. I’m just watching the conversation.
Your friend
Sufjon
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rev_kevin
Guest
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rev_kevin
Guest
Catch up and read all the posts. When you do you will see that this has already been asnwered.
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rev_kevin
Guest
The question was not about Matthew or John ans what they did. The question was about Peter.
O
o0raven0o
Guest
Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church? there things you havc to know more to see what is real and it is that all people mind or not free yet to know the thing i know.[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
You responded inside a quote??? Well let me explain what I’m saying.
rev kevin said: “Do you not know what ALL means?
I don’t know if you are aware of this but I have said here, can’t remember the post, that Catholics are Christian and that is what I believe.”
Yes, I know what ALL means. I also know that you said, repeatedly, Christ did not found the Catholic Church. You’ve also stated that Christ founded the ‘Christian Church’ and named several ‘denominations’.
You are twisting now. I have another thread running entitled, ‘For he that is not against you is for you.’. Please take time to visit that thread and see that I include ALL Christians as part of His Church.
Now please stop being so condescending as to use a dictionary to give definitions. Again, the FIRST recognizable Church was called ‘Catholic’. It has been around for over 2000 years. This is unlike the many denominations that are around and all that came through the Catholic Church through schisms or separations. We are all connected through our faith in Christ, whether you can agree with a Catholic on that or not still remains to be seen.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
huh?
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rev_kevin
Guest
Ya I think I figured out what happened.
The word ALL includes the CC.
No not twisting. I will visit that thread. I’m glad to see you include ALL Christians as part of His Church. I include ALL Christian Churchs as being Christian.
I like useing the dictionary. I also agree that we ALL are connected to Christ through faith.
Ok it was the first recognized church but being the first recognized don’t mean Jesus started it.
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