And that you reject?
And those are the people you have chosen to believe?
Wow! I was under the impression that the Jews have their Jewishness to this very day …
Two problems with that:
If something is not stated in the Bible you don’t believe it, therefore you don’t believe that Peter was ever in Rome because it is not in the Bible: Yes or No?
Can you tell me what your religion is?
Absolutely nothing. But what I was replying to was what you said about all this religions conversing on a single point. That has echoes of pantheism, new age and with a heavy dose of relativism
Most definitely not.
Okay. I think what is needed when one isdoing that is an open heart and an open mind. May God grant you these.
Hi Placido,
While it is true that the question is about Peter, Placido’s argument is valid and goes to the heart of the matter, that we know precious little about what the Apostles did and yet they are Christ’s apostles.
Ok. You say the Catholic Church is a Christian Church. You say Christ started the Christian Church. Now you finish up the post with ‘…don’t mean Jesus started it.’
I did a check on that and it is true that John Eck was the first to use the term Lutheran as a derogatory term against Luther during their debate.
He does got you there Rev Kev!Ok. You say the Catholic Church is a Christian Church. You say Christ started the Christian Church. Now you finish up the post with ‘…don’t mean Jesus started it.’
If as you say, Christ didn’t start the Catholic Church, then Christ did not start a Church.
And, Rinnie, don’t go whining about quality discourse, dialogue and clear communications to enhance understanding - just tough it out when he posts!He does got you there Rev Kev!
Ah, you must admit he is a colorful individual though, he does keep a thread going thats for sure.Now… hold on there a minute or two, Rinnie,
Rev Kev can’t get gotten by anyone … no-sir… when in doubt, he just changes positions.
He’s trying to be the ‘Ungottable One’! And, to improve his status of being ‘ungottable’ (when not changing positions, that is…) he just ignores the posts he does not like,
Hey, Rev Kev, try posts # 731 and 732 where I addressed your theory on the Catholic Church being founded by Constatine.
I must admit, that this early Roman Emperor had a number of qualities - like raising procrastination to an art form by not being Baptized until he was on his death bed! But founding the Catholic Church? If you’re right Rev Kev then we Catholics have been most ungracious by not canonizing Constantine for his generosity in foundig us. The least we could have done, eh?
But, you really need to start responding Rev Kev … you know … sort of show us that you have lost neither your imaginative flare for creative writing or for almost palpable courtesy in your posts to others who have not kept up with your changes.
So, remember … just respond so we can all keep track of what you say …
God bless
Oh Rinnie I forgot about that. I promise never to put you on it again. We still don’t agree on all thing’s but, We still respect one another.
Ah, you must admit he is a colorful individual though, he does keep a thread going thats for sure.
I have learned that if we all take the time to really listen to one another we can sometimes learn more from oneanother then we can ever teach.
We are never going to shove our faith down Rev’s throat anymore then he’s going to do it to us.
But what I have learned is why do we have to be hateful and sarcastic, why not have fun! Its like some threads are great and fun and you have a blast with one another. Others are like a court room. God forbid if you take one word out of context. or make a mistake. There is always that one person to jump on you and make sure you know it.
But I have learned the more you joke around and keep it light, the better understanding you can gain from one another. Rather you agree or not WHO CARES. I mean really.
Like myself for example, there are people I won’t mention any names Cinette!!! who seem to be very Jealous of my great Grammar.
When I first started on here there was this guy Mickey, we went at eachother for months. He would get one up on me and I on him. He actually put me on what he called his ignore list.
Then not long after my Dad died. I got a PM from Mickey. I was so sad. Well I stayed off of the site for awhile and when I got on there was the PM from OLE Mickey. I was like great kick a dog when its down.
Well I finally thought okay Mickey let me have it. I knew it was probally something sarcastic but … He said Dear Rinnie, I want you to know that my Dad died on March lst also but many years ago. I am going to light a candle for your Dad.
He ended up being my very best friend in my heart on this thread. For years I wanted to kill him, and then he got my heart.
Every March lst for 3 years now I will go to Church for my Papa and also light a candle for his.
One day I said, hey Mick did you take me off the ignore list yet. He wrote back
So I means the Rev’s okay, He is trying. I give him credit. But if we continue to attack it just drives others away in the end. And they will never give any merit to what you say anyway even if you are telling the truth. But if you can laugh and chill out, they may not agree with what you say, and thats okay. but they will at least maybe check it out, and maybe once in awhile (DEEP DEEP INSIDE: agree with you), But you just can never tell!!
He is doing the best he can, the same as we are. I mean we can only use the Grace we have from God. ANd some have more Grace and understandings then other. like I do with my Grammar
Well the Steelers are in the Supper Bowl AGAIN!!! And speaking of Mickey, he is Greek Orth. I believe. Well there is there special person on MY team who PRAYS alot. You will know him by the HAIR!! He is always blessing himself. Look for it you will see him always praying and doing the sign of the cross after every play. Well back then I mentioned it to Mickey, I figured I had one up on him for sure this time. But he said YES he goes to My Church not the RCC
They fed it to the birds? WHAT? I come from a pretty liberal version of Lutheranism but feeding the sacrament to the birds is really well for the birds. I would never think of doing such a thing. That’s horrible. Church teaching is that there is no shelf life to the real presence and that the sacrament should always be treated with respect and if not reserved, should always be consumed. Yeah I would be too after dealing with those people.*I admit I know little about the Lutheran church but I always thought that it was quite close to the CC. I believe there are about 3 or four different Lutheran denominations. I knew a couple who spoke like fundamentalists and knew they were not close. Then I met their Pastor and he told me that they believe that the Bread of Life is only such when the receiver consumes it and that the remains are fed to the birds because that is not the body of Christ. I thought that was weird. Then I attended a meeting where different denominations participated and was impressed with the Lutheran because he spoke a lot like a Catholic - so I am confused. You have said some stinging things. So again - I am confused.
God bless
*
Ah, you must admit he is a colorful individual though, he does keep a thread going thats for sure.
I have learned that if we all take the time to really listen to one another we can sometimes learn more from oneanother then we can ever teach.
We are never going to shove our faith down Rev’s throat anymore then he’s going to do it to us.
But what I have learned is why do we have to be hateful and sarcastic, why not have fun! Its like some threads are great and fun and you have a blast with one another. Others are like a court room. God forbid if you take one word out of context. or make a mistake. There is always that one person to jump on you and make sure you know it.
But I have learned the more you joke around and keep it light, the better understanding you can gain from one another. Rather you agree or not WHO CARES. I mean really.
Like myself for example, there are people I won’t mention any names Cinette!!! who seem to be very Jealous of my great Grammar.
When I first started on here there was this guy Mickey, we went at eachother for months. He would get one up on me and I on him. He actually put me on what he called his ignore list.
Then not long after my Dad died. I got a PM from Mickey. I was so sad. Well I stayed off of the site for awhile and when I got on there was the PM from OLE Mickey. I was like great kick a dog when its down.
Well I finally thought okay Mickey let me have it. I knew it was probally something sarcastic but … He said Dear Rinnie, I want you to know that my Dad died on March lst also but many years ago. I am going to light a candle for your Dad.
He ended up being my very best friend in my heart on this thread. For years I wanted to kill him, and then he got my heart.
Every March lst for 3 years now I will go to Church for my Papa and also light a candle for his.
One day I said, hey Mick did you take me off the ignore list yet. He wrote back
So I means the Rev’s okay, He is trying. I give him credit. But if we continue to attack it just drives others away in the end. And they will never give any merit to what you say anyway even if you are telling the truth. But if you can laugh and chill out, they may not agree with what you say, and thats okay. but they will at least maybe check it out, and maybe once in awhile (DEEP DEEP INSIDE: agree with you), But you just can never tell!!
He is doing the best he can, the same as we are. I mean we can only use the Grace we have from God. ANd some have more Grace and understandings then other. like I do with my Grammar
Well the Steelers are in the Supper Bowl AGAIN!!! And speaking of Mickey, he is Greek Orth. I believe. Well there is there special person on MY team who PRAYS alot. You will know him by the HAIR!! He is always blessing himself. Look for it you will see him always praying and doing the sign of the cross after every play. Well back then I mentioned it to Mickey, I figured I had one up on him for sure this time. But he said YES he goes to My Church not the RCC
It’s your opinion and you can point where you feel I have over-skewed and yes this is not a Lutheran board and as such if you are going vilify Lutherans, I would expect that you have it right than vilifying us for something that isn’t taught or practiced.
Correct.
Incorrect. In regards to the Eucharist, Luther and the Lutheran Church today believe whole heartedly in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, that the bread and wine truly become the Body and Blood of Christ. The other sacraments were revered as being sacramental but did not fit into the same category with Baptism or the Eucharist and that the others should be celebrated in the church but do not hold the same weight.
Define what you mean by the Primacy of Peter.
Again, incorrect. Luther taught that man made traditions had come into the church that separated people from a Christ centered perspective. Around this was the selling of indulgences, which in that time was equated with receiving God’s Grace by paying for it.
I will and I will also tell you about some of the things that Lutheran changed that you now enjoy in your church today. Luther did not change any of the Marian beliefs at the time. Mary holds a place of honor as the Holy Theotokos. We retained the liturgy. That are just the two that come to mind. Somethings that changed that you enjoy today: Liturgy in the common language, scripture in the vernacular, reception by the laity of the common cup.
That’s the point, in most of these threads people put out a supposition/statement with out addressing their definitions, understandings or perspectives. Just as in the title of this post. The key thing to define here is the Catholic Church. To you, you assume that you and Bendictus 2 hold the same definition of the Catholic Church. To the Orthodox they are going to have a different definition and to Lutherans we may hold yet another definition.
Primacy or being first among the apostles, however what the papacy has become is not what we see as being anything instituted by Christ especially in light of Luke 22 and the example in Acts and the early ecumenical church councils.
Who said they were sinless? Who expected them to be? Peter was probably the worst in the bunch. I think back of my trip to Rome and visiting the Quo Vadis church. But the fact remains that in our view Rome has broken with the traditions in the early church and has retained greater authority not delegated by Christ. Especially in the time of the 1500’s, the papacy was corrupt and a source for political intrigue, bought and sold by the rich for their benefit. I do not expect the papacy to be filled with men who rival Mary in her sinlessness, but there is absolutely no accountability or ability for righteous Bishops to depose an unrighteous pope. A popes moral character shouldn’t matter when making a promulgation on faith or morals, but the fact a great majority of the church does not or cannot make the distinction between those times and other times. See other threads about the popes speaking about condom use and the firestorm following.
To respond to your point number 1, we don’t use an abridged version. That would be something of a falsehood spread by people who don’t know. I can certainly show you in our lectionary where we use readings from books like Sirach. And no one is denying the existence of the church prior to 1517. We look to the early church fathers and to the early ecumenical councils as guidance for the church. I think the argument that most people including the orthodox would put forth is Rome took on more power or authority than was granted or part of tradition.
Like it or not we were birthed from Rome not Constantinople