Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

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rev_kevin said:
NO
But I did find this out.

Paul’s new religion had the advantage over other salvation-cults of being attached to the Hebrew Scriptures, which Paul now reinterpreted as forecasting the salvation-death of Jesus. This gave Pauline Christianity an awesome authority that proved attractive to Gentiles thirsting for salvation. Paul’s new doctrine, however, met with disapproval from the Jewish-Christians of the Jerusalem Church, who regarded the substitution of Jesus’ atoning death for the observance of the Torah as a lapse into paganism. Paul was summoned to Jerusalem by the leaders James (Jesus’ brother), Peter, and John to explain his doctrine (c.50).
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I am hesitant with authors who talk about “Paul’s religion” or “Paul’s new doctrine”. It is usually someone trying to discredit historic Christianity (mainly Islam in my experience). I have always liked to study the historian before I study their history, can we know who authored this rev?

God bless
 
Roman_Catholic said:
Rev is telling us that he is a Christian and that his faith in Christ is strong. I am going to take rev at his word and believe, if this is indeed the case, that he rejects this and that he posted it for no other reason than for discussion purposes.

God bless
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I reject it, I reject it, I reject it.
 
Lets us look at some things that is in the bible and then tell me what is real or not real.
Revelation Chapter 22:18 (reads) I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book this come from the ( New American Bible )

Now lets look at KJV
Revelation 22:18 in the KJV (reads) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Know if you would Say Did they Not Add when the Bible say Not Add and then did The bible say Not to take out and so they did take of things from the Bible.
Now If this is true then it is by the people of the pass the made the bible. and those that did the KJV did add so those that add shell be Cruse for what they did and the people that reads that KJV will be Dam by what the people of the pass they. Now it was Jesus
The Cruse those that add to and take out of the his book. I think you are need to read more of your bible to see what you all is in for. Because he he will send some one in the flash to put to death those that sin. and for those that he mark she not be put to death.
For this guy that come will know who is God’s People or the people with a sinner Heart.

from the sprite of my lord my father God his Well will be done Aman
 
now I will put a end to this. God been here before the all Church of this world and the world to Come. Jesus say one last the Now one will know When he will come. Not even God him self.
It is to love God and not put no other God Before Him. The He said No one come to my father but to me so we or given a door way of a new way to pray to God and the is from the blood of the Jesus Him self.

now we look at Jesus was He God him self or the son of god or the son of man.

think before you post to this one if read the bible as much as i do you will now what was Jesus and who he help all that he show them the way. and the more you read my Post the More you will know who I am and what I know God show me all what I need to do it is how I will use what I know to Slave this world from it self. Bless to my Father and To my Lord Aman
 
rev kevin,

I hope you learn from your mistake and see what can happen when you specifically search for information to disagree with Catholics. It’s quite evident you stepped into something you didn’t believe, but quickly preferred over taking a chance and looking at what we’ve been saying.

:(:(😦
 
o0raven0o said:
Lets us look at some things that is in the bible and then tell me what is real or not real.
Revelation Chapter 22:18 (reads) I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book this come from the ( New American Bible )

Now lets look at KJV
Revelation 22:18 in the KJV (reads) I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Know if you would Say Did they Not Add when the Bible say Not Add and then did The bible say Not to take out and so they did take of things from the Bible.
Now If this is true then it is by the people of the pass the made the bible. and those that did the KJV did add so those that add shell be Cruse for what they did and the people that reads that KJV will be Dam by what the people of the pass they. Now it was Jesus
The Cruse those that add to and take out of the his book. I think you are need to read more of your bible to see what you all is in for. Because he he will send some one in the flash to put to death those that sin. and for those that he mark she not be put to death.
For this guy that come will know who is God’s People or the people with a sinner Heart.

from the sprite of my lord my father God his Well will be done Aman
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Your posts are very hard to understand. What is your point and how does it pertain to the topic of this thread?
 
Hi, Roman_Catholic,

I am not so sure. In reviewing post #765, there is no opening remark like, “Here is a different idea” or, “Let’s discuss this instead of the thread we are on” or anything else for that matter. He just springs this out in response to Prodigal’s post. When you look at the sequencing, there are at least four other posters who challenge him on this incredible set of statements and he does not respond to them. I took some ‘liberties’ with the basic ideas he presented - and got his attention. And, he wondered where I got that from.

No one but God knows the heart. We, have, however, all read his changing positions, re-definitions, evasions and simply ignoring posts that challenge the various positions he sets out. He appears content to being an apostate from the Catholic Church and wants us all to know it. His reasons for posting are strictly his.

I think praying for him would be the most charitable activity we can all do.

God bless
Roman_Catholic said:
Rev is telling us that he is a Christian and that his faith in Christ is strong. I am going to take rev at his word and believe, if this is indeed the case, that he rejects this and that he posted it for no other reason than for discussion purposes.

God bless
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tqualey said:
Hi, Roman_Catholic,

I am not so sure. In reviewing post #765, there is no opening remark like, “Here is a different idea” or, “Let’s discuss this instead of the thread we are on” or anything else for that matter. He just springs this out in response to Prodigal’s post. When you look at the sequencing, there are at least four other posters who challenge him on this incredible set of statements and he does not respond to them. I took some ‘liberties’ with the basic ideas he presented - and got his attention. And, he wondered where I got that from.

No one but God knows the heart. We, have, however, all read his changing positions, re-definitions, evasions and simply ignoring posts that challenge the various positions he sets out. He appears content to being an apostate from the Catholic Church and wants us all to know it. His reasons for posting are strictly his.

I think praying for him would be the most charitable activity we can all do.

God bless
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tqualey,

It looks like most of the discussion was erased, it is therefore difficult to understand the story. The context of my post is completely gone. If you wish to PM I could explain it more. Suffice it to say though once rev realized who the author was he did post that he rejected the writings, which was also erased.

God bless
 
Mikeoffaith said:
Primacy or being first among the apostles, however what the papacy has become is not what we see as being anything instituted by Christ especially in light of Luke 22 and the example in Acts and the early ecumenical church councils.

Who said they were sinless? Who expected them to be? Peter was probably the worst in the bunch. I think back of my trip to Rome and visiting the Quo Vadis church. But the fact remains that in our view Rome has broken with the traditions in the early church and has retained greater authority not delegated by Christ. Especially in the time of the 1500’s, the papacy was corrupt and a source for political intrigue, bought and sold by the rich for their benefit. I do not expect the papacy to be filled with men who rival Mary in her sinlessness, but there is absolutely no accountability or ability for righteous Bishops to depose an unrighteous pope. A popes moral character shouldn’t matter when making a promulgation on faith or morals, but the fact a great majority of the church does not or cannot make the distinction between those times and other times. See other threads about the popes speaking about condom use and the firestorm following.

To respond to your point number 1, we don’t use an abridged version. That would be something of a falsehood spread by people who don’t know. I can certainly show you in our lectionary where we use readings from books like Sirach. And no one is denying the existence of the church prior to 1517. We look to the early church fathers and to the early ecumenical councils as guidance for the church. I think the argument that most people including the orthodox would put forth is Rome took on more power or authority than was granted or part of tradition.

Peace to you.
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*Hello Mike!

I would be pleased to know your belief regarding the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Jesus said that the HS would guide us into all truth and that He would never leave us etc. Despite all the sins of Popes etc and struggles within the Church do you believe that the HS gave up on us?
🙂
*
 
benedictus2 said:
Wow Rinnie THAT is beautiful.

I don’t think it is good to put anyone on an ignore list. I think when one does that one puts a block on a possible avenue of God’s grace.

One thing I really appreciate about Rev Kevin is that he really dialogues.

By the way Rev Kevin, if you are reading this, I take my hat off to you for the simple fact that you are able to keep up with the posts considering there technically only one of you and so many of us. :tiphat:
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I disagree, I think that there are times that you either have to put people on your ignore list, Personally I call it a time out list, or you are forced to continue in anger and when in anger is when you yourself are separated from God. You did it to yourself. And when we are angry we are in no way able to communicate God’s word because it is not in us.

Simply because while what we are saying is the true word of God the other Person’s pride or anger will also cloud their judgement. They WILL NEVER hear you. So you are wasting your time and not making God real proud of you either.

I have met a new friend on this site this week. We are very separated in our thinking on many things. Bet you can’t guess who my new friend is can you?😃

He has showed me how he is Catholic and I am Catholic and how we are united together in our faith. That is one simple way. The Only way. Jesus Christ.

While he has alot of work to do in his studying, We all do. Rev Kev has showed me that he is more sincere in learning everything in the bible then I could ever be. And you have no idea the books and reading of the early fathers of the Church that I have been reading in the last few years. And you also have NO IDEA the TIME he is putting in to come closer to God in wisdom and understanding.

You are such a hard person to relate to, and try to show thing’s to. You never let people explain what they said in their own way. Or tell you what they thought they said, or meant to say. You take what we say and take it upon yourself to interpret it for us. And when we try to defend ourself we are placed with a prison sentence before a fair trial. At least talking for myself thats how I felt.

And while I know, or at least hope that is not how you meant to come across, I am still the judge of my own feelings. No one can tell anyone how to feel. And that is how you made ME feel. Can you imagine what Rev is going through.

I would love to go back and take the time with you and show you why I said what I said and explain to you how I have come to those conclusions. But if we were to do that it will take much time and effort and patience on both parts.

It is not the Catholic teaching’s of the Catholic Church that is fault for the separation of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ. It is the People of the CC that are at fault. The same way that it is not the teaching’s of the CC that will bring people back it is the Teachers.
 
Cinette said:
*What does “He does got you there” mean??? I have read it several times but still do not understand?
:):)🙂
*
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The same way I screwed up but was never caught with what I said. I said that God started the CC not Jesus but he was through Jesus. If anyone wanted to get me all that had to say was simply this. How can God start the CC and Not Jesus. Are they not the same person.😃

But I slid through with that one.😛 Let me go back and see what my buddy said.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Ok. You say the Catholic Church is a Christian Church. You say Christ started the Christian Church. Now you finish up the post with ‘…don’t mean Jesus started it.’ 🤷

If as you say, Christ didn’t start the Catholic Church, then Christ did not start a Church.
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Simple Pro Son got Rev to look up some things and begin to grow in Church history. And in that he is seeing that Christ did indeed start the CC. In his searching and learing he is beginning to see that Jesus is the Christian Church which me and him only see at this time.

It is through that Church that we gain Salvaton. Not the Church per say, Christ is how we gain salvation.

What the Rev is showing us is quite simple. He does see that Christ is alive in the Church. But he is saying he hasn’t quite found him ONLY in the Catholic Church. He is saying he is finding Christ in the Church. Is he wrong? What we call the CC he is seeing as the CC. But while our C is Catholic, his is Christian. But we have something in common to bring us together now. THE CHURCH or CHRIST as one, as Rev and I see it. Are we wrong?

Not according to our own Pope. He said he gives credit to all who have found Salvation through Jesus Christ. Does that not make him (Rev Kev) and us in communion with one another through the Living Church Jesus Christ.

While it is not a PERFECT Communion yet there is perfect Truth in One Belief. That Jesus Christ is how we gain our Salvation.

The Rev has a million thoughts in his head right now. And he is trying to sort them out, but he is asking us to help him see what he is really seeing. But we choose to attack him instead because he cannot see YET what is being revealed to him. The Mystery like any mystery has so many clues but can be solved.

I am so proud of him for his growth. But his mistake is he is taking on too much at one time to comprehend. And it is not his fault, it is ours. We are not giving him time.

I could not even answer every question in the speed that he is being asked to answer and I have been RC all of my life. Alone go and research it, and then find it, and then try to understand it. And then come back and defend myself and explain it. 🤷
 
Cinette said:
*Hello Mike!

I would be pleased to know your belief regarding the role of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Jesus said that the HS would guide us into all truth and that He would never leave us etc. Despite all the sins of Popes etc and struggles within the Church do you believe that the HS gave up on us?
🙂
*
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See Cinette, this is what I mean. Now to me you have put Mike on the defense right off the bat. Maybe my grammar is not the best:p but here is how I would have asked this question.

I would have found what we have in common and agree on that first, and that is of course the Holy Spirit. Our heart tells us Mike does not reject the HS.

I would have said okay Mike we agree that the HS is leading us into all truth. Now with that said we are both in agreement the HS can’t be wrong. So what we need to find out is how did we get separated in our thinking. I feel it would be fair to say not the HS thats for sure, so we are united in our thinking there.

So now what we need to figure out, where did we fall apart, Then let him tell you what HE thinks happened.🤷

Maybe I am wrong. I just feel that its how we ask, not what we ask, that causes misunderstanding.🤷
 
rinnie said:
See Cinette, this is what I mean. Now to me you have put Mike on the defense right off the bat. Maybe my grammar is not the best:p but here is how I would have asked this question.

I would have found what we have in common and agree on that first, and that is of course the Holy Spirit. Our heart tells us Mike does not reject the HS.

I would have said okay Mike we agree that the HS is leading us into all truth. Now with that said we are both in agreement the HS can’t be wrong. So what we need to find out is how did we get separated in our thinking. I feel it would be fair to say not the HS thats for sure, so we are united in our thinking there.

So now what we need to figure out, where did we fall apart, Then let him tell you what HE thinks happened.🤷

Maybe I am wrong. I just feel that its how we ask, not what we ask, that causes misunderstanding.🤷
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*Thank you for your perspective Rinni but I would still like to hear from Mike.

Thank you
Cinette:)*
 
Cinette, Let me ask you a question.

This is a true story. My SIL is color blind. To make thing’s worse his occupation is an Electrician:eek:

Now when I first heard this I said to my daughter HOW!! How in the world can this be. It is a mystery to me.

While I know I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I do know enough about watching my husband wire to know wires are color coated:eek:

Now he is not only a Electrician, he is a darn good one. How can this be, How can he know what wire is his ground? Hot, Etc. Are they not color coated? Can you answer this for me?

My first thought was just my luck, all of that education, and I think I better stick with the ole ball and chain, just to be on the safe side. Until of course he explained to me this mystery. Now can you explain it to me first of all?
 
rev kevin,

The difference between us appears to be that Catholic beliefs are based upon historical and Biblical research and it appears your beliefs are still under research, especially in light of the most recent ‘evidence’ you produced. That’s a very hard position to debate from, in my opinion. It seems to be a ‘I believe it and will find the proof of why I believe it to prove you Catholics wrong’. That is why some interpret your arguments as ‘anti-Catholic’.

I think you should research, hopefully with an open heart and mind, first. Then enter into these type debates. It’s just a suggestion…
 
Cinette said:
*Thank you for your perspective Rinni but I would still like to hear from Mike.

Thank you
Cinette:)*
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Thank- You for accepting my perspective and realizing it was all in Love and respect for you that it was given.👍
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
rev kevin,

The difference between us appears to be that Catholic beliefs are based upon historical and Biblical research and it appears your beliefs are still under research, especially in light of the most recent ‘evidence’ you produced. That’s a very hard position to debate from, in my opinion. It seems to be a ‘I believe it and will find the proof of why I believe it to prove you Catholics wrong’. That is why some interpret your arguments as ‘anti-Catholic’.

I think you should research, hopefully with an open heart and mind, first. Then enter into these type debates. It’s just a suggestion…
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Now THIS is what I am talking about!!:extrahappy: This is what we are about, or should be about!!

But One more point if I may. It has to be 2 open hearts when the debates begin. If not there will never be any progress.
 
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