Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[rinnie]

*Thank you for your perspective Rinni but I would still like to hear from Mike.

Thank you
Cinette*

And also Cinette you need to hear from Mike, and I would also love to hear what Mikes says. I in no way meant to answer for Mike.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

And down here we are getting soaked. Looking at the news last night I was wondering if there is any place that is not experiencing a weather bad news.

Looks like someone forgot to pay the weather bill.

Sorry i had to chime in on that one…

Matthew

 

[adrift]

One thing I really appreciate about Rev Kevin is that he really dialogues.
benedictus2;7528099:

By the way Rev Kevin, if you are reading this, I take my hat off to you for the simple fact that you are able to keep up with the posts considering there technically only one of you and so many of us. :tiphat:

Me too:clapping:

 

[rinnie]

Tell em Rev Kev we can all have what is called a brain fart at one time or another.

With that thought I will leave you with this one, For I will not be back until Monday hopefully with a team that Has just Won its 7th SUPER BOWL

The thought is this the Church Fart. For those of you who do not know what that is:

This old lady and man were in Church and she said Honey I just let a silent fart, what should I do?

The old Man replied get new batteries for your hearing aid

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Benedictus2,

I fell for that ‘Spanish Inquistion’ position for many years … and, really it never interested me that much, figured some sadists were involved … and a lot of exaggeration in the many telling of these tales. It is basically was all falsehood.

Thanks for sending this.

Tom

Please watch and compare

The Protestant lie about the Inquisition

and The Truth
youtube.com/watch?v=eMkjvCKTK3Q

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Prodigal Son1,

Let me commend you on this excellent post…

God bless

rev kevin,

The difference between us appears to be that Catholic beliefs are based upon historical and Biblical research and it appears your beliefs are still under research, especially in light of the most recent ‘evidence’ you produced. That’s a very hard position to debate from, in my opinion. It seems to be a ‘I believe it and will find the proof of why I believe it to prove you Catholics wrong’. That is why some interpret your arguments as ‘anti-Catholic’.

I think you should research, hopefully with an open heart and mind, first. Then enter into these type debates. It’s just a suggestion…

 

[rev_kevin]

rinnie;7529237]Tell em Rev Kev we can all have what is called a brain fart at one time or another.

Ya we all can have a brain fart once in a while, but some can cause you to get introuble. I know. I’m glad to see my brain fart was taken down. That will never happen again. :imsorry::imsorry::imsorry:

The thought is this the Church Fart. For those of you who do not know what that is:

This old lady and man were in Church and she said Honey I just let a silent fart, what should I do?

The old Man replied get new batteries for your hearing aid

Good one

 

[benedictus2]

I disagree, I think that there are times that you either have to put people on your ignore list, Personally I call it a time out list, or you are forced to continue in anger and when in anger is when you yourself are separated from God. You did it to yourself. And when we are angry we are in no way able to communicate God’s word because it is not in us.

One does not need to put someone in the ignore list for time out. I have ignored posts without putting them in my ignore list because i still like to hear what they have to say even if I don’t feel like replying. So no,putting someone in the ignore list is not a good idea as far as I am concerned.

Simply because while what we are saying is the true word of God the other Person’s pride or anger will also cloud their judgement. They WILL NEVER hear you. So you are wasting your time and not making God real proud of you either.

I doubt it. Once something is heard it can never be un-heard. They may fight it but it’s there. A seed waiting for light and water at a later date.

While he has alot of work to do in his studying, We all do. Rev Kev has showed me that he is more sincere in learning everything in the bible then I could ever be. And you have no idea the books and reading of the early fathers of the Church that I have been reading in the last few years. And you also have NO IDEA the TIME he is putting in to come closer to God in wisdom and understanding.

I don’t even know why you are writing this. I never ever doubted his love for the Lord or his desire to learn more about Scripture. On another thread he told me he has 4 Bibles. So really I have no idea why you are even saying this.Totally irrelevant. He would not be here at CAF if it were not so. I think there are a lot of people here who come to question the faith and in the end change their mind. God was the one who led them here in the first place, for the wrong initial reason or not.

You are such a hard person to relate to, and try to show thing’s to. You never let people explain what they said in their own way.

I have allowed you to explain what you mean in your own way. But the simple fact is, you say the wrong thing and are stubborn as a mule about your point even when you have been shown that you are wrong.

Instead of arguing with me go see a truly orthodox priest or even call in to Catholic Answers Live and tell them that you believe the Church is the Second Person of the Trinity, that the Church IS God. Better yet give them a link to your post.

I just saw a post from you which said the same thing again even when you have been corrected.

As I said before you rely too much on your own understanding. You add 2 and 2 and make 79.

So please, just take up my challenge. Go to an Orthodox Priest, wirite to the Apologists on this board or ring Catholic Answers.

Or tell you what they thought they said, or meant to say. You take what we say and take it upon yourself to interpret it for us. And when we try to defend ourself we are placed with a prison sentence before a fair trial. At least talking for myself thats how I felt.

But I don’t do that. I just tell you exactly what you say. Now matter how much explaining you make, the Church is NOT God. End of story.

I do hope you will take my advice and talk to a true blue apologist or an Orthodox priest.

Mind you Rinnie, I was not the only one who corrected you. Cinnette and PO18guy did as well. And if you take a poll of the Catholics and even Protestants on this thread I am sure that 99.99 percent will tell you that the Church IS NOT GOD.

And while I know, or at least hope that is not how you meant to come across, I am still the judge of my own feelings. No one can tell anyone how to feel. And that is how you made ME feel. Can you imagine what Rev is going through.

Rinnie, this is not about feelings. I am not here to discuss feelings and mush. This is about truth. Your confusing the issue and slipping into relativism.

I was not telling you how to feel.** I hope you will do me the courtesy of telling me exactly which post I told you or anyone how to feel how to feel. ** Otherwise, you are talking rubbish again.

What I am telling you is that what you are telling people on this board is ONE BIG ERROR. ONE BIG HERESY. That has nothing to do with feelings. You probably do not even have any idea of the implications of your statement.

I would love to go back and take the time with you and show you why I said what I said and explain to you how I have come to those conclusions. But if we were to do that it will take much time and effort and patience on both parts.

No amount of explaining will make your statement right. The Church is NOT GOD. The Church is NOT the Second Person of the Trinity.

You are wrong. Have the humility to acknowledge it.

It is not the Catholic teaching’s of the Catholic Church that is fault for the separation of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

Oh Rinnie, please some sense. Where did I ever say that it is?

It is the People of the CC that are at fault. The same way that it is not the teaching’s of the CC that will bring people back it is the Teachers.

Sorry Rinnie, if the teachers are teaching the wrong thing they will not bring the people back. All they will do is lead them to error. I have read far too many conversion stories and they all say that what converted them is the truth. The desire for Truth is embedded in all of us. Some fight it because of one reason or another and some don’t.

And please, do not make this thread about Rev Kevin. I don’t think he appreciates that based on what he posted earlier.

 

[benedictus2]

The same way I screwed up but was never caught with what I said. I said that God started the CC not Jesus but he was through Jesus. If anyone wanted to get me all that had to say was simply this. How can God start the CC and Not Jesus. Are they not the same person.

But I slid through with that one. Let me go back and see what my buddy said.

You obviously have not put that statement through some logical thinking.

You said

The Catholic Church IS Jesus Christ.
If the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ and God started the Catholic Church then God must have started Jesus Christ because the Church is Jesus Christ.

By way of syllogism this is how it applies to your statement.

X is Y.
God started X.
Therefore God started Y.

The reason this applies, is because Y is not just a definition of X but an identity that you are equating with X.

Logic, Rinnie, logic.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi, Benedictus2,

I fell for that ‘Spanish Inquistion’ position for many years … and, really it never interested me that much, figured some sadists were involved … and a lot of exaggeration in the many telling of these tales. It is basically was all falsehood.

Thanks for sending this.

Tom

What puzzles me with some protestants is the predilection to fabricate.

Don’t they know that the devil is the father of lies? Why are they following him?

I mean we see that even to this day with the likes of Jack Chick.

There was another story in “Chosen” where this lady was told by her pastor to lie about what Catholics believe when she was still a Baptist. Even Scott Hahn said that they were told to twist the presentation of Catholic Doctrine.

In the latest issue of This Rock was an article about Pope PiusXII and how Cornwell distorted everything. Again, here we see a deliberate and ill-willed distortion of truth. Not a casual mistake but deliberate evil. The cover title puts it brilliantly too: “Need to Calumniate? Punctuate.” I am not sure what Cornwell’s religious affiliation is but this rather bad.

I mean, surely, that shows you already that these people can’t possibly be guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[benedictus2]

See Cinette, this is what I mean. Now to me you have put Mike on the defense right off the bat. Maybe my grammar is not the best but here is how I would have asked this question.

I would have found what we have in common and agree on that first, and that is of course the Holy Spirit. Our heart tells us Mike does not reject the HS.

I would have said okay Mike we agree that the HS is leading us into all truth. Now with that said we are both in agreement the HS can’t be wrong. So what we need to find out is how did we get separated in our thinking. I feel it would be fair to say not the HS thats for sure, so we are united in our thinking there.

So now what we need to figure out, where did we fall apart, Then let him tell you what HE thinks happened.

Maybe I am wrong. I just feel that its how we ask, not what we ask, that causes misunderstanding.

Why are you telling people how they should post?

Leave that job to the moderator. If they see something wrong with Cinnette’s post they will tell her.

You are muddling the issue.

 

[PbloPicasso]

:knight1:

 

[guanophore]

Seems to me that An examination of the Greek word “ekklesia” reveals that the word is properly translated into English as the “assembly” or “congregation.” It is used to refer to a group of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together.

Now this meaning in Greek has to do with all Church’s not just the Catholic Church. No where does it say it just means the Catholic Church. Seems to me ALL Church’s fall into this Greek meaning of the word Church.

I am sure it must seem this way, and when I read those Gk sources and the NT apart from the Teaching of the Apostles, I believed that too.

However, Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH,a nd the signs of that ONE church are that she is Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

There are some Protestant ecclesial communities that are closer that others, but none of them have the four marks of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

So the Greek word for church that you go by is irrelevant now?

No, just modified for clarity.

If the title did not exist yet then how can you be so sure that by church he meant the CC?
Christ founded Christianity not the CC.

Jesus is completely identified with His One Body, the Church.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rinnie,

I read Benedictus2’s response and your reply and her response back … but, if I may… withtout interrupting too much… let me add something to this dialogue.

When one storms off with words like, “I’m putting you on my (ignore?) list” several
happen.

1.) The ‘ignorer’ loses out in the dialogue that is obvious still going on - because it has not stopped the ‘ignoree’ (sorry about coining two words in the same sentence … but, I think you know what I meant…) from expressing his thoughts. While we may disagree with the thoughts expressed, we have a duty to ourselves to address what we see as error. Shutting down part of the system resolves nothing.

2.) The petulance expressed on diminishes the ‘ignorer’ - it shows both a lack of control and loss of focus. Instead of focusing on what is said, the focus has shifted to the speaker. Finally,

3.) By closing one’s self off from criticism one loses the abilty to see beyond the mirror. There really is a ‘wart’ there or the ‘Emperor really has no clothes’! Ultimately, failing to discuss (by such well established tactics as ignoring questions, evading the question, changing positions, criticizing others for not following, etc) does not stop discussion. It only shows one’s unwillingness to be open to new ideas. And, this is where one further descends into a pit of self-absorption.

Now, when it comes to some statements made, like, ‘The Chruch is God’… I think Benedictus2 offered three excellent ways of seeking further objective information on this topic. Simply stated, as written, the statement is incorrect and I do not believe that this is a matter of ‘interpretation’.

As far as being give a ‘prison sentence’ without a fair hearing, I really think this bit of hyperbole is over the top. You do not really believe you are in prison do you? But, unfortunately, you apparently do not believe others have read your statement and found it wanting. Honest, for all of the its wonders, beauty, and grace - the Catholic Church is a creature - created by the Hand of God through His Son Jesus Christ to be His Bride - but, it is not God. As a comparrison, the Blessed Virgin Mary - for all of her wonders, beauty and grace, she too is a creature, and by special Grace of God was conceived without sin. But, she is not not God. Only God is God - and, I think this is as far as we can take it.

God bless

I disagree, I think that there are times that you either have to put people on your ignore list, Personally I call it a time out list, or you are forced to continue in anger and when in anger is when you yourself are separated from God. You did it to yourself. And when we are angry we are in no way able to communicate God’s word because it is not in us.

Simply because while what we are saying is the true word of God the other Person’s pride or anger will also cloud their judgement. They WILL NEVER hear you. So you are wasting your time and not making God real proud of you either.

I have met a new friend on this site this week. We are very separated in our thinking on many things. Bet you can’t guess who my new friend is can you?

He has showed me how he is Catholic and I am Catholic and how we are united together in our faith. That is one simple way. The Only way. Jesus Christ.

While he has alot of work to do in his studying, We all do. Rev Kev has showed me that he is more sincere in learning everything in the bible then I could ever be. And you have no idea the books and reading of the early fathers of the Church that I have been reading in the last few years. And you also have NO IDEA the TIME he is putting in to come closer to God in wisdom and understanding.

You are such a hard person to relate to, and try to show thing’s to. You never let people explain what they said in their own way. Or tell you what they thought they said, or meant to say. You take what we say and take it upon yourself to interpret it for us. And when we try to defend ourself we are placed with a prison sentence before a fair trial. At least talking for myself thats how I felt.

And while I know, or at least hope that is not how you meant to come across, I am still the judge of my own feelings. No one can tell anyone how to feel. And that is how you made ME feel. Can you imagine what Rev is going through.

I would love to go back and take the time with you and show you why I said what I said and explain to you how I have come to those conclusions. But if we were to do that it will take much time and effort and patience on both parts.

It is not the Catholic teaching’s of the Catholic Church that is fault for the separation of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ. It is the People of the CC that are at fault. The same way that it is not the teaching’s of the CC that will bring people back it is the Teachers.

 

[guanophore]

Do you know how many times I have heard this. If I had a dime for every time I would be a very rich man.

Hey brother! If you were to just accept it, then people would no longer feel the need to weary your ears.

 

[guanophore]

Acts 11:26 When he found him, he brought him bsck to Antioch. Both of them stayed there with the church for a full year, teaching great numbers of people. (It was there at Antioch that the believers(Greek disciples)were first called Christians.)

Right there is only on church, people, those who believe in Christ

No, there is more than just people who believe in Christ. There is also the Apostolic Authority, appointed by Christ, to teach and shepherd the Church.

When the word “kath holos” is first used by Luke in Acts 9:31 to describe the church, he uses it to describe that the One Church was the same “throughout” all of Judea. Later, that modifier is used by Ignatius in his letter to the Smyrnians, he uses “Catholic” in a way that demonstrates it has become common usage. If this is the case in 107 AD, at what point, between when Acts was written, and Iggies letter, did a change happen? There is more on the unity of the Church in the Catechism.

The Christians in Antioch called themselves Catholic, and did so up until the Great Schism in 1054, after which they still considered themselves the remnant of the Catholic Church founded by Christ.

In order for your assertion that the early Church was not Catholic to be true, you would have to find a way to explain away the historical evidence such as this.

 

[guanophore]

Jewish Christians, also called Hebrew Christians, Christian Jews or Judaizers, were Early Christians who maintained Jewish religious practices, from the period of the inception of Christianity until approximately the fifth century. They were associated with the Hebrew Gospel and/or Jewish-Christian Gospels.

Not entirely. Although there were Jewish Christians who were Judiazers, most of them were not. The majority of Jewish Christians were NOT Judiazers, es,pecially the Apostles, and their disciples. After Jesus revealed to Peter that Gentiles were to be recieved into the Church, the Apostolic college gave this instruction to the churches throughout the world. Some disobeyed the apostolic command and continued to teach that, to be a good Christian, one must first become a Jew, but most of the Hebrew Christians were not this way.

Alister McGrath, former Professor of Historical Theology at the University of Oxford, claims that the 1st century Jewish Christians were totally faithful religious Jews.

Doesn’t this make sense? They could see that Christ was the fulfilmment of everything in Judaism. There was nothing in Judiasm that would contradict the Gospel. It was not until the Lord allowed the temple to be destroyed in 70 AD, though, that temple worship was abandoned.

They differed from other contemporary Jews only in their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. However as Christianity grew throughout the Gentile world, Christians were cut off from their Jewish roots.

This did create a strain in the Church, which is why the Apostles gave the instruction they did to the mixed communities (Gentiles to abstain from blood etc) to allow harmony.

Yes I can call it a denomination. Christianity came from the Jewish religion. The Catholic faith practice many of the same things that are practiced by Jews.

You can, but it is a misapplication of the term. While the early church was considered a sect of Judaism, it became clear shortly that this was not the case (as you noted that the more Gentiles came in, the less flavor of Judaism existed.

Jesus was a Jew. Most of the disciples were Jewish men that broke away or cut off from being Jewish and converted to Christianity. Therefore the Catholic faith is a denomination.

No, now you are contradicting yourself. The Apostles did not break away from being Jewish. They were faithful Jews all their lives.

 

[guanophore]

Yes I can. I am a Christian, a part of the church, a group of believers that is the church.

You a member of the Church by virtue of your baptism, but the Church is much more than “a group of believers”. The believers have shepherds and teachers appointed over them. Those who are not in unity with the ones God has appointed are separated from the unity in the One Church.

 I never said I went by sola scripture. I am not anti-Catholic and I have stated it many times here in the CAF. I find being called anti-Catholic offensive. But if one disagrees with the CC somehow thats makes them automatically anti-Catholic. :shrug:

You posted some material that is anti-Catholic, and the definition that you cling to of “church” is anti-Catholic. It is a definition that was designed to cut out the Apostolic Authority.

Most people, including those that categorize themselves as Catholic, don’t realize they are holding anti-Catholic ideas. There are several of them here at CAF.

Jesus started the church and the church is a group of believers that are Christians, even Catholics are Christians. Therefore Christ started Christianity. If not then who did?

A group of believers in union with their bishop, the successor of the Apostle.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

Four excellent posts… And, they were a real pleasure to read!

God bless

You a member of the Church by virtue of your baptism, but the Church is much more than “a group of believers”. The believers have shepherds and teachers appointed over them. Those who are not in unity with the ones God has appointed are separated from the unity in the One Church.

You posted some material that is anti-Catholic, and the definition that you cling to of “church” is anti-Catholic. It is a definition that was designed to cut out the Apostolic Authority.

Most people, including those that categorize themselves as Catholic, don’t realize they are holding anti-Catholic ideas. There are several of them here at CAF.

A group of believers in union with their bishop, the successor of the Apostle.