Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[rev_kevin]

Hey brother! If you were to just accept it, then people would no longer feel the need to weary your ears.

So I should just accept it without believing it.

Would you accept something you did not believe in?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So I should just accept it without believing it.

Would you accept something you did not believe in?

I’d recommend you research for evidence, you’re willing to stand behind, to support what you say you believe, prior to entering into a debate or telling someone else that they are wrong.

 

[rev_kevin]

I’d recommend you research for evidence, you’re willing to stand behind, to support what you say you believe, prior to entering into a debate or telling someone else that they are wrong.

First lets look at the word Christian:

Christian
American Heritage Dictionary:
Chris·tian
(krĭs’chən)
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Sowing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Read more: answers.com/topic/christian#ixzz1DEaUYE2x

**Both Catholics and non-Catholics fall into this definition. **

Next lets look at the word Catholic:

What is catholic ?
catholic: of the whole; universal (Greek kath holos ). With a small ‘c’, it refers to the whole of the Gospel of Christ and the ways of living it out, among Christ’s followers of all times, places, races, sexes, social classes and situations of life. When using ‘catholic’, it is easy to miss that it refers to all that is within the Gospel truth and fitting for the Kingdom of God (a very broad thing, meaning the redeemed or completed universe). If it’s not, it is not part of the ‘kath holos’, no matter how much it is present among Christians or church bodies.

With a capital ‘C’, it refers to the churches which acknowledge the authority of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), the Roman Catholic Church, and its traditions, structures, and operations.

CATHOLIC Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

CATHOLIC definition: broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal. See examples of catholic used in a sentence.

www.dictionary.com

Now the question is, what do we have incommon?

Once we establish this then we can move on to what **kind of church **Jesus started.

 

[benedictus2]

So I should just accept it without believing it.

Would you accept something you did not believe in?

How do you determine what you will believe?

Suppose someone says X is Y?
You say No X is not Y.
Then this someone says X is Y because of A, B, C, D, E.
But you say well no A and B are incorrect because of G H.
But this someone then defends AB and provides proof I J and after that you cannot support your statement X is NOT Y anymore.

With the mounting evidence, would you still believe X is Not Y?

Applying that to the Matthew 16 interpretation and the support that people have given for the Catholic viewpoint, can you tell us why you think it is still wrong?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

First lets look at the word Christian:

Christian
American Heritage Dictionary:
Chris·tian
(krĭs’chən)
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Sowing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Read more: answers.com/topic/christian#ixzz1DEaUYE2x

**Both Catholics and non-Catholics fall into this definition. **

Next lets look at the word Catholic:

What is catholic ?
catholic: of the whole; universal (Greek kath holos ). With a small ‘c’, it refers to the whole of the Gospel of Christ and the ways of living it out, among Christ’s followers of all times, places, races, sexes, social classes and situations of life. When using ‘catholic’, it is easy to miss that it refers to all that is within the Gospel truth and fitting for the Kingdom of God (a very broad thing, meaning the redeemed or completed universe). If it’s not, it is not part of the ‘kath holos’, no matter how much it is present among Christians or church bodies.

With a capital ‘C’, it refers to the churches which acknowledge the authority of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope), the Roman Catholic Church, and its traditions, structures, and operations.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/catholic

Now the question is, what do we have incommon?

Once we establish this then we can move on to what **kind of church **Jesus started.

Jesus started one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. That’s my belief, backed up by scriptures and historical research of the early Church fathers.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

**St. Ignatius approximately 107AD

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church

. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. **

Be careful of modern day thinkers on the subject and you may want to check them out thoroughly before using them…

BTW, St. Ignatius predates the American Heritage Dictionary.

 

[rev_kevin]

Jesus started one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. That’s my belief, backed up by scriptures and historical research of the early Church fathers.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
**We believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. **
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Be careful of modern day thinkers on the subject and you may want to check them out thoroughly before using them…

BTW, St. Ignatius predates the American Heritage Dictionary.

I believe ALL Christians believe this with the exception of what I highlited.

Seem to me we have alot in common so far.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Jesus started one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. That’s my belief, backed up by scriptures and historical research of the early Church fathers.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

St. Ignatius approximately 107AD

Be careful of modern day thinkers on the subject and you may want to check them out thoroughly before using them…

BTW, St. Ignatius predates the American Heritage Dictionary.
exactly why I’m Catholic. Truth speaks louder than a man made creation, a dictionary.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kev,

St. Augustine prayed for more faith so that he could understand rather than more understanding so he could believe.

In reviewing past posts, it appears to me that your position is that Jesus did not start the Catholic Church because this is what you want to believe. Many posters have presented both biblical and historic evidence that refutes this position, but you have just dug in your heels.

So, it would appear to me that you really do not have many remaining logical statements supporting your most current position. Christ founded the His Church on Peter (not Constantine) and prior to St. John’s death it was known as the Catholic Church. An unbroken line of successors to the Chair of Peter link Peter with Benedict XVI. And, finally, the Catholic Church has never taught error.

But, Faith like the other virtues requires Grace to operate. While logical aruguments have been presented, mere logic does not produce Faith. Where you take this is strictly up to you - but, the facts remain unchanged by anyone’s actions on this topic. Christ did what He did … there is no changing this… either in the sense that God took away the special role He gave to Peter and his successors, or that he gave a special role to any of the so-called reformers. A clear review of the history of the Catholic Church from its founding in about 30AD to the 16th Century will give you an appreciation where some of the doctrines you believe in. But, this is not Faith - we are back to logic.

You and the others are in my prayers on this matter. But, for me, it really boils down to you presenting a clear and logical case for what you believe, as opposed to merely saying “THIS is what I believe and you can not prove me wrong”… or words to that effect (as evidenced in your numerous posts).

The ball is in your court.

God bless

So I should just accept it without believing it.

Would you accept something you did not believe in?

 

[placido]

I believe ALL Christians believe this with the exception of what I highlited.

So, you are of the opinion that some Christians do not believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and do not acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins?
Do they believe in more than one Church and in more than one baptism?
If so, then they reject more than the Nicene creed; they reject Scriptures.

placido

 

[rev_kevin]

Christ’s Church

By Rosco Brong D.D., 1938
**
OUR LORD BUILT HIS OWN CHURCH, AND IT IS STILL DOING BUSINESS FOR HIM**

• “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18.)*

Christ’s church was built upon Himself. "That Rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:4.) “In the Lord Jehovah is the Rock of ages.” (Isa. 26:4, margin.) “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 3:11.) “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief comer stone.” (Eph. 2:19-20.)
**
Built Upon Christ**

The word Peter means a stone. It means a little stone, not a big rock. The Catholic church, which did not exist until hundreds of years after Peter’s death, falsely claims to be built upon Peter, and by that very claim denies that it is Christ’s church, because the Bible teaches that Christ’s church is built upon Himself.

Peter never suggested that God’s people or God’s churches were built upon Peter. He preached that men should turn to Christ. He knew that Christ was not only the foundation but also the comer stone of His church:

“As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Pet. 2:2-8.)

Built In Christ

Christ’s church was built upon Christ as the foundation Rock; and it is built in Christ as the chief comer stone: “Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord.” (Eph. 2:20-21.)

No organization is Christ’s church, no matter what it calls itself, if it depends upon or owes its existence to the life, work, and teachings of any mere human being or any number of human beings. Christ’s church was built upon Christ Himself; not upon popes, or Luther, or King Henry VIII, or Calvin, or Wesley, or Campbell, or Smith, or Russell, or any other men who thought they could do a better job of teaching and organizing than the Son of God.

Built By Christ

Christ’s church was built by Himself. “I will build my church.” False churches teach that the church was not organized until Pentecost, but there is no such teaching in the Bible. On the contrary, in Acts 1:15 we are told that before Pentecost “the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty.” This plainly means that the church had 120 members. Christ built His church during His earthly ministry in the flesh, before His crucifixion. In Matthew 18:17 we read, “If he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” It is ridiculous to suppose that Christ was talking about a church that didn’t exist. He was plainly teaching His disciples that if they could not settle the matter of trespasses against one another as individuals, they should take their trouble to the church. What church? The church of which they were members, of course. Christ promised to build His church, and here we find it in existence before He was crucified. Why call Him a liar by saying the church was not organized until Pentecost?

Christ’s church was built by Christ Himself, before His crucifixion. No organization is Christ’s church, no matter what it calls itself, if its origin is more recent than the personal ministry of Christ on earth. Christ’s church in the world today is the same in organization, in doctrine, and in practice as it was 1900 years ago.

 

[rev_kevin]

placido;7533556]So, you are of the opinion that some Christians do not believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

Yes

and do not acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins?

We believe in one baptism.
We do not believe its for the forgiveness of sins.

Do they believe in more than one Church and in more than one baptism?

I believe in one Church and in one baptism.

placido

 

[adrift]

rev_kevin:
Yes

We believe in one baptism.
We do not believe its for the forgiveness of sins.

I believe in one Church and in one baptism.

placido

What do you believe this means?

Acts Chapter 22
16: And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

 

[guanophore]

Christ’s Church

By Rosco Brong D.D., 1938
**
The word Peter means a stone. It means a little stone, not a big rock.**

The Catholic church, which did not exist until hundreds of years after Peter’s death, falsely claims to be built upon Peter,

How do people like this make the early references to the Catholic Church in the second century “go away”? Do they just pretend they don’t exist, or do they have ways of explaining them into irrelevance?

and by that very claim denies that it is Christ’s church, because the Bible teaches that Christ’s church is built upon Himself.

He even quotes the Scripture that states His Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Does anyone really imagine that these people can have a church built upon them without God’s grace? Does anyone really believe the apostles and prophets “replaced” Christ? Isn’t it pretty clear that they were all grafted into the cornerstone?

Why do they think Jesus changed Simon bar Jonah’s name to Cephas (Rock)?

Peter never suggested that God’s people or God’s churches were built upon Peter. He preached that men should turn to Christ. He knew that Christ was not only the foundation but also the comer stone of His church:

Is he suggesting that Peter did not know he was part of the foundation?

To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

So, how come these people can be built into the cornerstone and become part of God’s building, but if Peter is built in, for some reason he is “replacing Christ”???

 

[placido]

We believe in one baptism.
We do not believe its for the forgiveness of sins.

Meaning, you don’t believe Acts 2:38; you don’t believe Titus 3:5; you don’t believe Acts 22:16, and you don’t believe 1 Peter 3:21.

placido

 

[placido]

The word Peter means a stone. It means a little stone, not a big rock.

Have you looked at other possibilities? For example the possibility that Peter means Kepha and that Kepha means rock …

The Catholic church, which did not exist until hundreds of years after Peter’s death, falsely claims to be built upon Peter, and by that very claim denies that it is Christ’s church, because the Bible teaches that Christ’s church is built upon Himself.

What, then, do you make of the Scripture that says the Church was built on the apostles?

placido

 

[benedictus2]

I believe ALL Christians believe this with the exception of what I highlited.

Seem to me we have alot in common so far.

Great!

Can we now discuss the items we do not have in common with the hope that this may also be held in common later on?

The chronology you posted says that Jesus established the Catholic Church. You said earlier that you believe the chronology except the part about the Catholic Church. But that was the very first item in the list. So my question remains as to why you posted it if you do not believe the very first item on the list?

I also mentioned that there is no One Christian Church. Based on the definition you gave, we are all different churches.

So now the only question that remains is which one is the church that Christ established? Based on the list you provided, do you think there is one that can rightly stake their claim on that title?

I think it would be good if you could give answers to these so we can move on with the discussion.

Peace!

Cory

 

[benedictus2]

Christ’s Church

By Rosco Brong D.D., 1938
**
OUR LORD BUILT HIS OWN CHURCH, AND IT IS STILL DOING BUSINESS FOR HIM**

• “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18.)*

Christ’s church was built upon Himself. "That Rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:4.) “In the Lord Jehovah is the Rock of ages.” (Isa. 26:4, margin.) “Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 3:11.) “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief comer stone.” (Eph. 2:19-20.)
**
Built Upon Christ**

The word Peter means a stone. It means a little stone, not a big rock. The Catholic church, which did not exist until hundreds of years after Peter’s death, falsely claims to be built upon Peter, and by that very claim denies that it is Christ’s church, because the Bible teaches that Christ’s church is built upon Himself.

v
v
v
v
vChrist’s church was built by Christ Himself, before His crucifixion. No organization is Christ’s church, no matter what it calls itself, if its origin is more recent than the personal ministry of Christ on earth. Christ’s church in the world today is the same in organization, in doctrine, and in practice as it was 1900 years ago.

Rev Kevin, this kind of exegesis has since been abandoned by Protestant scholars.

In an earlier post I actually cited 2 Baptist and 1 Lutheran who said that this exegesis is wrong.

So I ask you, do you agree with what you have posted here?

Because if you do, then I can show you a very simply debunking of this argument.

 

[benedictus2]

We believe in one baptism.
We do not believe its for the forgiveness of sins.

If baptism does not forgive sins then what does St Peter mean in 1 Peter 3 when he said “baptism saves you”?

I believe in one Church and in one baptism.

But where is this one Church? What is this one Church? As I have mentioned before there is no One Christian Church. Reality just proves that false. There are many Christian Churches and they are different Christian Churches. So where is this One Church that you believe in?

 

[r4zk4l]

I confess to doubts and confusion when it comes to Christ beginning the Catholic Church as it is today. Here he was, with hardly a place to lay his head, and here is the church with its huge cathedrals, its ornate vestments, its long processions, and such.

If Christ did start the church what does he think of it today? I sometimes have even wondered if the sex scandal and other problems could be a punishment? Or, maybe an alarm? I also have honestly wondered if the early Hebrew-Christian tradition was invaded by the Greco-Roman religion and the mystery cults. Don't know. Just wondering.

When I see the Pope and all the finery and ceremony and adulation connected with him I wonder: what would Jesus think? He would have loved the work of Mother Theresa and of the many others who seek to serve the have-nots in the world. But as for the other????

Too often Christians claim to embrace love, humility and peace while they project an image of bigotry, arrogance and hostility.

Am I wrong?

Mother Teresa was NOT a good Catholic and should not even be considered for sainthood. She promoted and practiced so called Natural Family Planning. You can NOT go against the will of God. If he wants to give you children be assured that he will provide so that you can have enough to feed, clothe, raise etc. them. You do not have the right to plan as to how many children you want to have or when you want to have them. If you do you are sinning. You can’t tell God what you want. He decides.

 

[benedictus2]

Yes I can call it a denomination. Christianity came from the Jewish religion. The Catholic faith practice many of the same things that are practiced by Jews.
**Jesus was a Jew. ****Most of the disciples were Jewish men that broke away or cut off from **being Jewish and converted to Christianity. Therefore the Catholic faith is a denomination.

I read this cursorily before but when Guano responded to this I had a much better read of it.

Rev Kevin, in this statement you basically acknowledged that Apostles were Catholic.

So based on this I think we can say that the Church of Acts is the Catholic Church , the new Israel, the fulfillment of Judaism as God has intended His Church to be.

I think we have now answered the thread question don’t you think?

And the answer is yes