Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[bill1519]

If Christ’s Bride The Church is all of Christianity, She believes in The Real Pressence and just bread and grape juice, Confess to a Priest or don’t, Women can/ can’t be priests, The act of homosexuality is wrong/ They’re is nothing wrong with it, Abortion is never OK except sometimes… and the list goes ON… WOW! Jesus’s wife sounds like a schizophrenic nut job! He should/ shouldn’t divorce Her!

 

[Nicea325]

If Christ’s Bride The Church is all of Christianity, She believes in The Real Pressence and just bread and grape juice, Confess to a Priest or don’t, Women can/ can’t be priests, The act of homosexuality is wrong/ They’re is nothing wrong with it, Abortion is never OK except sometimes… and the list goes ON… WOW! Jesus’s wife sounds like a schizophrenic nut job! He should/ shouldn’t divorce Her!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

Great post

I find it particularly distressing that he presents all of this sound and fury - over his own man-made religion. The fact that he must consistently ignore and evade should be a tip-off that something is fundamentally rotten in the foundations of the arguments used. And, this is where simply intellectual honesty should engage … but, maybe like a worn clutch, the once alarming sound of gear grinding has become common-place.

God bless

Yes. It seems to me that you have been consistently clinging to this deficient notion of “church”.

Maybe you don’;t see yourself doing it, Kev, but clearly you need to ignore quite a bit of scripture to cling to you notions. For example, the Apostle instructs one of the first bishops:

1 Tim 1:3

I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine,

Different doctrine is what we have, and it prevents unity. The One Church and One Faith founded by Christ does not have the 'different doctrine" that is evidenced now throughout Christendom.

If there are diametrically opposed doctrines, someone has stepped outside of the One Faith.

That is what it means when it says “One Faith”.

“Don’t teach any different doctrine”

“Be of one mind”

That is very kind of you, rev kev, but it does not change the facts. Jesus only founded One Church, and any other ecclesial community founded by men is separated from it to a greater or lesser degree (depending upon how much of the Apostolic faith is rejected).

Such ecclesial communites have been separated from the One Faith handed down to us from the Apostles:

“Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition” (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

Irenaeus
“As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

“That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?” (ibid., 3:4:1).

Notice the name of Irenaeus letter. He refers to those who have departed from the doctrines of the faith as “heretics”. Heresies are “different doctrines”. These are what the Apostle is referring to in Galatians when he says those who depart from the One Faith are anathema (accursed).

Gal 1:6-9

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed!

Different doctrine = accursed

 

[elvisman]

show me where i made up one? I have always stated that the church is the believers.

No, the Church is made up of all those who recognize its** authority**** and submit to it because it is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23). It is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the supreme Authority on earth (Matt. 18:15-18). It is what Christ equates himself with (Acts 9:4-5).****

**Until you recognize all of this – your definition of “Church” doesn’t hold water.

once again show me where i move the goal post?

Y**ou move the goal post every **time you reject a teaching of Christ because it does not suit you.

we are one church through chirst.

Only** the Catholic Church is ONE Church BY Christ, FOR Christ and THROUGH Christ. No ****other **Protestant ecclesial community can make that claim because they were not established by him. They were ALL established by flawed men.

where does jesus say that church means believeing in the same doctrines?

John 17:20-23
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

---

Jesus is asking the Father to keep his Church as Church ONE – as he the Father are ONE. As ONE, Jesus and the Father** cannot**** have different views about salvation and neither can his Church. Anybody that does is outside ****his Church. **

**I would also offer ****2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2 **and Acts 15 as proof that we must believe in the same doctrines.

 

[Nicea325]

No, the Church is made up of all those who recognize its** authority**** and submit** to it because it is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23**). It is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the supreme Authority on earth (Matt. 18:15-18). It is what Christ equates himself with (Acts 9:4-5).****

**Until you recognize all of this – your definition of “Church” doesn’t hold water.
You move the goal post every time you reject a teaching of Christ because it does not suit you.
Only the Catholic Church is ONE Church BY Christ, FOR Christ and THROUGH Christ. No **other **Protestant ecclesial community can make that claim because they were not established by him. They were ALL established by flawed men.
John 17:20-23
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

---

Jesus is asking the Father to keep his Church as Church ONE – as he the Father are ONE. As ONE, Jesus and the Father** cannot**** have different views about salvation and neither can his Church. Anybody that does is outside ****his Church. **

**I would also offer ****2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2 ****and Acts 15 **as proof that we must believe in the same doctrines.

Amen!

 

[CEM5]

Hi Rev Kev. this is going to help you with ordination of one Bishop over another. Now its not going to help you today, but remember me, when it all comes together for you. And it will someday.

Remember the scripture when Jesus said Peter I have prayed for THEE. It was for only Peter, that, I feel we can both agree on simply because he was talking to only Peter.

Now there is something in there that alot of people miss. Our Lord did not pray for all of our Apostles as equals, he prayed for them in and through Peter.

Now that statement has alot of kick to it. Here is what our Lord was saying, It was through their ONENESS WITH PETER that they would share in his prayer of victory over the evil of the whole world.

When the Communists in China tried to destroy the Church they were quite clever. They tried to insert a division between Apostolic Succession and Peter.

Check this out, its history you will see I am telling you the truth. Now they brainswashed a few Bishops and succeeded in getting them to consecrate a few Priests.

Then the Priests would be in line for Apostolic Succession and the communists hoped the faithful would accept them. So what they did they in turn denied the Primacy of Peter.

But the Catholics refused to accept the bishops.

See BOTH Apostolic Succession and the RECONGITION of the PRIMACY OF PETER go hand and hand.

Here is how Bishop Sheen describes it. I like him! He is simple to understand and to the Point. (and funny also).

He puts it this way Electricity has to have contact with wires to move from house to house. No matter if it is a foot away or 500 feet away. That is how he said Priestly authority is.

He said that any organization rather it starts today, last year, 1000 years ago cannot transmit Divine Power of Christ’s Passion unless there is contact with Christ himself under the CONDITIONS CHRIST LAID DOWN.

If you try getting some books of his, I think it could really bring alot of understanding into your mind Kev. I really do!!

My Dad always said you have to really understand something to teach it. And if you cannot make it simple to explain if you really don’t understand it yourself.

I think that is how we can fail as Catholic’s at times to show things. we do indeed understand it, but we have to fully let it work in our mind for along time to come to a complete understanding of it, and then its really simple for us.

That is why I can’t stress enough to you the Sacraments. When you come to accept them and grasp the full understanding of them, (and you will) it will all come together like finishing a puzzle.

You know how one piece of a puzzle can hold you up, sometimes for days. then that one piece you can build half of a puzzle sometimes in ten minutes, then stuck again, its like that.

Just as our Lord was Mediator between God and Man being both God and Man he desires human instruments between himself and the world to minister and dispense the Mysteries of God. (1 Cor 4:1)

Also read Hev. 5:11 That will help you.

But as the Bishop stated you must have a connection to Christ from Peter to have the Power just like you need that connection from the electric box. If you are not connected no electric. Same with the HS no connection with Peter you lost your connection that Christ gave to his Apostles. No Connection you can’t minister the Sacraments.

I know its alot to grasp, but give it some time.

Hi rinnie,

Bravo! Well said!

blessings,
CEM

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Elvisman,

Great post!

Now, there is a chance that he may respond … you know, with a logical presentation of fact from Scripture, History, and the scholarly writings of the Church Fathers … hmmm … maybe given the same odds as a well known snowball! Should he actually respond in such a manner - my right hand will pay off my left hand with the quarter it has been spinning around! Ah, but should he evade, more the goal post (again) and other-wise place further tension on the cords of truth … well, then … left hand will be paying up on this bet!

Enjoyed reading your post.

God bless

No, the Church is made up of all those who recognize its** authority**** and submit** to it because it is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23**). It is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the supreme Authority on earth (Matt. 18:15-18). It is what Christ equates himself with (Acts 9:4-5).****

**Until you recognize all of this – your definition of “Church” doesn’t hold water.
You move the goal post every time you reject a teaching of Christ because it does not suit you.
Only the Catholic Church is ONE Church BY Christ, FOR Christ and THROUGH Christ. No **other **Protestant ecclesial community can make that claim because they were not established by him. They were ALL established by flawed men.
John 17:20-23
"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.”

---

Jesus is asking the Father to keep his Church as Church ONE – as he the Father are ONE. As ONE, Jesus and the Father** cannot**** have different views about salvation and neither can his Church. Anybody that does is outside ****his Church. **

**I would also offer ****2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2 ****and Acts 15 **as proof that we must believe in the same doctrines.

 

[rev_kevin]

Hi, Elvisman,

Great post!

Now, there is a chance that he may respond … you know, with a logical presentation of fact from Scripture, History, and the scholarly writings of the Church Fathers … hmmm … maybe given the same odds as a well known snowball! Should he actually respond in such a manner - my right hand will pay off my left hand with the quarter it has been spinning around! Ah, but should he evade, more the goal post (again) and other-wise place further tension on the cords of truth … well, then … left hand will be paying up on this bet!

Enjoyed reading your post.

God bless

**
WRONG ** I will not respond due to your un-Christian, un-Catholic remarks that you posted above. When you can be more Christian like toward me and other I would respond but seeing to it that you don’t know how to I will not respond.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Elvisman,

I am just not sure about this one … the idea was that there would be a meaningful response to YOUR post… so, while I am tempted to just call this another evasion - and let the right hand win (again!)… I think I will just wait and see if there is a real response that is actually delivered. So, left hand gets to keep the quarter … for now!

God bless

**
WRONG ** I will not respond due to your un-Christian, un-Catholic remarks that you posted above. When you can be more Christian like toward me and other I would respond but seeing to it that you don’t know how to I will not respond.

 

[elvisman]

**WRONG **I will not respond due to your un-Christian, un-Catholic remarks that you posted above. When you can be more Christian like toward me and other I would respond but seeing to it that you don’t know how to I will not respond.

**Will you respond to MY post, then?

 

[elvisman]

Amen!

Right back at’cha . . .

 

[elvisman]

Hi, Elvisman,

Great post!

Now, there is a chance that he may respond … you know, with a logical presentation of fact from Scripture, History, and the scholarly writings of the Church Fathers … hmmm … maybe given the same odds as a well known snowball! Should he actually respond in such a manner - my right hand will pay off my left hand with the quarter it has been spinning around! Ah, but should he evade, more the goal post (again) and other-wise place further tension on the cords of truth … well, then … left hand will be paying up on this bet!

Enjoyed reading your post.

God bless

:tiphat:

 

[rev_kevin]

**Will you respond to *MY ***post, then?

Not as long as tqualey keep up with his un-Christian like remarks when you ask me a question.(see below) I will not respond to your posts as long as tqualey keeps it up and as long as you condone such actions.

Original post: tqualey
Hi, Elvisman,

Great post!

Now, there is a chance that he may respond … you know, with a logical presentation of fact from Scripture, History, and the scholarly writings of the Church Fathers … hmmm … maybe given the same odds as a well known snowball! Should he actually respond in such a manner - my right hand will pay off my left hand with the quarter it has been spinning around! Ah, but should he evade, more the goal post (again) and other-wise place further tension on the cords of truth … well, then … left hand will be paying up on this bet!

Original post: tqualey
Hi, Elvisman,

I am just not sure about this one … the idea was that there would be a meaningful response to YOUR post… so, while I am tempted to just call this another evasion - and let the right hand win (again!)… I think I will just wait and see if there is a real response that is actually delivered. So, left hand gets to keep the quarter … for now!

Then you :tiphat: at the post above.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

rev kevin,

I provided several scriptures showing what I believe to be teaching oneness in doctrines, some of which elvisman also posted. You haven’t responded to any of those scriptures and I don’t believe I’ve done anything that could be construed as ‘rude’. Why didn’t you respond to my posts?

 

[Cinette]

*rev kevin does not respond because he has no response!

In the face of the fullness of truth and all the evidence of the scriptures and history, rev kev is stumped! Therefore he finds an excuse that tqualey and elvisman are offensive.

It is just a game and I lost patience a long time ago. I salute you both tqualey and elvisman for your patience and endurance.

I shall be very surprised if you get a proper response!

God bless all

*

 

[tqualey]

I’m shocked, Cinette!!

I just can’t believe you would say this! “Just a game…” Oh, N-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o

But, after careful analysis - I would say that the previous posts have been just evasions with the cloak of accusing others of ‘un-"C"hristian’ activites. You would think that the real ‘un-Christian’ antics would be the deception, gamesmanship and sheer bluff at what should, in all honesty, be considered a serious topic.

I’m serious as a heart-attack on this one: the deception in his posts are simply a disgrace, his evasions are nothing but intellectual dishonesty. But, his claim to being offended is probably quite genuine! Being called out repeatedly to actually respond in an adult manner to defend what one claims to be his belief - and then hiding, evading and ignoring the challenge is a disgrace.

Alas, Cinette, I, too, have lost patience. If it were not for the quality of the response from the other posters, I would have probably lost heart a long time ago! You would not be the only one to be surprised if we were to receive an actual adult response - you know … something that simply transcends his oft used statement: “I don’t believe Jesus started the Catholic Church”.

By the way, Cinette, sometimes what is left of my memory plays tricks on me … if I did not ask you what is the most significant reason you think Jesus started the Catholic Church - let me ask you now…

For me, it is neatly presented in Matthew 16 - here is Christ quizzing the Apostles - and probably getting frustrated with their ineptitude … when God the Father tells Peter the answer! And, Christ announces to everyone - and that includes us! - that “…mere flesh did not reveal this to you - but my heavenly Father!” So, here is the All-Powerful God, having from all eternity selected Peter to be the First Leader of the Catholic Church - and then Christ gives Peter the Keys to the Kingdom to symbolize Peter’s authority… and then Peter blows it!!! And, Christ calls him a devil! Christ knew form all eternity that Peter would not only miss the messge of the Cross in Matt 16 - but ten chapters later - Matthew is telling us how Peter denied Christ three times!

If this had been a human institution - it surely would have simply fallen under the weight of the Judas’ betrayal, Peter’s denial, and the other ten running away in the Garden.

Looking forward to your answser.

God bless

*rev kevin does not respond because he has no response!

In the face of the fullness of truth and all the evidence of the scriptures and history, rev kev is stumped! Therefore he finds an excuse that tqualey and elvisman are offensive.

It is just a game and I lost patience a long time ago. I salute you both tqualey and elvisman for your patience and endurance.

I shall be very surprised if you get a proper response!

God bless all

*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Elvisman,

It’s official … my right hand won the quarter from my left!

So, tell me, what is the most significant reason you think Jesus started the Catholic Church?

Looking forward to your answer.

God bless

:tiphat:

 

[elvisman]

Not as long as tqualey keep up with his un-Christian like remarks when you ask me a question.(see below) I will not respond to your posts as long as tqualey keeps it up and as long as you condone such actions.

Original post: tqualey
Hi, Elvisman,

Great post!

Now, there is a chance that he may respond … you know, with a logical presentation of fact from Scripture, History, and the scholarly writings of the Church Fathers … hmmm … maybe given the same odds as a well known snowball! Should he actually respond in such a manner - my right hand will pay off my left hand with the quarter it has been spinning around! Ah, but should he evade, more the goal post (again) and other-wise place further tension on the cords of truth … well, then … left hand will be paying up on this bet!

Original post: tqualey
Hi, Elvisman,

I am just not sure about this one … the idea was that there would be a meaningful response to YOUR post… so, while I am tempted to just call this another evasion - and let the right hand win (again!)… I think I will just wait and see if there is a real response that is actually delivered. So, left hand gets to keep the quarter … for now!

Then you :tiphat: at the post above.

The bottom line is that you can’t answer it. The Biblical evidence about the definition of Christ’s Church is overwhelming.**

I had 2 Jehovah’s Witnesses at my door this weekend. I talked with them for about 30 minutes. When they ran out of answers, they abruptly ended the conversation - just like you just did.

 

[elvisman]

Hi, Elvisman,

It’s official … my right hand won the quarter from my left!

So, tell me, what is the most significant reason you think Jesus started the Catholic Church?

Looking forward to your answer.

God bless

He established the Church as a means of attaining salvation. We are not saved BY the Church - but we are ALL saved THROUGH it. That’s why it is called the Fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23), the Pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the Body of christ himself (1 Cor. 12, Col. 1:18, Acts 9:4-5)

**That’s the short answer, but the Biblical evidence for it is overwhelming - when read in context. **

Some of our non-Catholic friends like to think that Jesus established a Lone Ranger system - which is overwhelmingly debunked by Scripture.

 

[rev_kevin]

Well I’m done with this site. I will not respond, although I have answers, because of the following:

**Originally Posted by tqualey **
Hi, Elvisman,

It’s official … my right hand won the quarter from my left!

So, tell me, what is the most significant reason you think Jesus started the Catholic Church?

Looking forward to your answer.

Originally Posted by tqualey
God blessI’m shocked, Cinette!!

I just can’t believe you would say this! “Just a game…” Oh, N-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o

But, after careful analysis - I would say that the previous posts have been just evasions with the cloak of accusing others of ‘un-"C"hristian’ activites. You would think that the real ‘un-Christian’ antics would be the deception, gamesmanship and sheer bluff at what should, in all honesty, be considered a serious topic.

I’m serious as a heart-attack on this one: the deception in his posts are simply a disgrace, his evasions are nothing but intellectual dishonesty. But, his claim to being offended is probably quite genuine! Being called out repeatedly to actually respond in an adult mann.

**Originally Posted by Cinette **
rev kevin does not respond because he has no response!

In the face of the fullness of truth and all the evidence of the scriptures and history, rev kev is stumped! Therefore he finds an excuse that tqualey and elvisman are offensive.

It is just a game and I lost patience a long time ago. I salute you both tqualey and elvisman for your patience and endurance.

I shall be very surprised if you get a proper response!

God bless all er to defend what one claims to be his belief - and then hiding, evading and ignoring the challenge is a disgrace.

Alas, Cinette, I, too, have lost patience. If it were not for the quality of the response from the other posters, I would have probably lost heart a long time ago! You would not be the only one to be surprised if we were to receive an actual adult response - you know … something that simply transcends his oft used statement: “I don’t believe Jesus started the Catholic Church”.

Originally Posted by elvisman
I had 2 Jehovah’s Witnesses at my door this weekend. I talked with them for about 30 minutes. When they ran out of answers, they abruptly ended the conversation - just like you just did.

When ya’ll can grow up and act like Christians then we can talk but remarks like these are uncalled for. rude, and I guess the way of the CC. But I guess the modiator don’t see anything wrong with these kind of personal attacks.