Did Jesus Start the Catholic Church?

[guanophore]

Hi.

I just read saw this thread today, so only read the first ten pages before skipping to the last. I did get the feeling that people were annoyed Rev won’t change his opinion, but I haven’t been reading the whole thread, so I may have missed something.

I think it is more a case of persistently asserting opinion without any evidence to support said opinion. He was asked to produce some citations from history to support his claims, and could not.

He was also asked to look at and enter into dialogue over the scriptures and writings of the Church that contradict his position. He refused to do this as well.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Guanophore,

H-m-m-m-m-m… is that gloating?

N-a-w-w-w-w-w! (Sorry… could not resist!)

I think one of the most amazing aspects of looking at Jesus and His founding of the Catholic Church - is the prompt persecution the Apostles suffered followed by their disciples. The Jewish leaders felt truly threatened - after all, since they fulfilled all of the prophecies concerning the murder of the coming Messiah - they were big trouble! So, best continue with their denial of Truth and persecute Christ’s followers - they chose to continue in their sin and refused to believe God’s Word:

Isa 1:18-21
**18
Come now, let us set things right, says the LORD: Though your sins be like scarlet, they may become white as snow; Though they be crimson red, they may become white as wool.
19
If you are willing, and obey, you shall eat the good things of the land;
20
But if you refuse and resist, the sword shall consume you: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken! **

And then these Jewish leaders thought they could bully an old and unlettered fisherman into turning his back on his Risen Savior. Peter’s responses are noteworthy:

Acts 4: 16-21
**16
“What are we to do with these men? Everyone living in Jerusalem knows that a remarkable sign was done through them, and we cannot deny it.
17
But so that it may not be spread any further among the people, let us give them a stern warning never again to speak to anyone in this name.”
18
So they called them back and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
19
Peter and John, however, said to them in reply, “Whether it is right in the sight of God for us to obey you rather than God, you be the
judges.
20
It is impossible for us not to speak about what we have seen and heard.”
21
After threatening them further, they released them, finding no way to punish them, on account of the people who were all praising God for what had happened. **

Acts 5:28-33
**
28
“We gave you strict orders (did we not?) to stop teaching in that name. Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and want to bring this man’s blood upon us.”
29
But Peter and the apostles said in reply, “We must obey God rather than men.
30
The God of our ancestors raised Jesus, though you had him killed by hanging him on a tree.
31
God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins.
32
We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him.”
33
When they heard this, they became infuriated and wanted to put them to death.**

Just following the lives of these men and their teachings of the Risen Savior brings us to the conclusion that they were truly doing the works of God. After the last Apostle died - we find that their beliefs in all that Christ had taught did not die with them - these Truths were perserved in Apostolic Tradition - predating the NT by almost 400 years. And, in tracing the lives of the saints during this time we find them all faithful to the Catholic Church. Amazing! And, from the 5th Century to the 16th Century - the Catholic Church was still preaching the Word of God, administering the Sacraments caring for the poor, the infirmed, orphaned and widowed while being faithful to Christ’s command to preach the Good News and Baptize all nations.

Looking back at the Jewish leaders who persecuted Christ and His Apostles and the Catholic Church born on that First Pentecost Sunday - we see the obvious denial of God’s Word. They simply refused to look at the evidence and believe. In looking at the posts of those who challenge the idea that Jesus founded the Catholic Church - they, too, refuse to look at the evidence. This is demonstrated by evasion, ignoring what is directly confronting their statements, and ‘moving the goal post’ behavior It does not end here - we will all be held accountable for our behaviors (and that includes our posts… ) and our willful thoughts.

God bless

You are not going to answer because others think you have no valid answer? That seems rather self defeating, dont’ you think?

It seems that you are helpless in the face of Catholics that know their scriptures, and their history. No one is attacking you, rev kevin. We are observing that you have embraced a deficient notion of “church” that represents a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

Refusing to answer because one of the members was able to give a successful and reasoned defense of his faith to some JW’s that came to his door is a very poor excuse.

 

[onenow1]

Yes Joe, in a nutshell, I do. I know you disagree and that’s fine. I don’t need you to believe it, just understand my position.

Hi Mike

Now Jesus told the Apostles to go out and teach the world about Himself, and even gave them the power to bind and loose. Now Jesus new the Apostles were going to die, it stands to reason, after there death He would give them the ability to make successors.

We need to discern, what church did Jesus give that power to bind and loose .Mike there are so many eccliasial communities in the world, common sense tells us there can only be one voice unchanging, rigid in doctrine and dogmas, proclaiming all truth not just parts we agree with.

If you truly believe your denomination is the one in union even with other eccliasial communities regardless of the differences that are obvious all I can say is keep searching diligently with no> preconceptions < easy to say hard to do<. The Holy Spirit will guide you to all truth if you listen carefully.

God Bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Curious Seed,

Do you plan on responding to the post that responded to your questions?

It is time to engage … if in fact you plan on communicating on this thread before it expires.

God bless

Tom

If it is true that Jesus started the Church [Matthew 16:18], did He start the Catholic Church?

Does Matthew 16:18 refer to Christian precepts or Christian organization; if both or either, necessarily Catholic?

Are John 21 and Acts Christian or uniquely Catholic?

Was it understood by anyone, including Peter, that Jesus had named him [Peter] as their leader?

Did Saint Paul - who clarified much to the Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, et al - disabuse them that Peter is the head of the Church and that a successor to him needed to be acknowledged?

Did the Catholic Church embrace the office of Pope initially, or was it much later and then resorting to historical “backdating” to justify it?

Even if it were true that Jesus founded a Church to formally promulgate the faith - and not through individually inspired saints alone - Matthew 16:18, John 21, and Acts are arguably not uniquely of Catholic perspective, at least not by the converted living at the time.

 

[Cinette]

I think one of the most amazing aspects of looking at Jesus and His founding of the Catholic Church - is the prompt persecution the Apostles suffered followed by their disciples. The Jewish leaders felt truly threatened - after all, since they fulfilled all of the prophecies concerning the murder of the coming Messiah - they were big trouble! So, best continue with their denial of Truth and persecute Christ’s followers - they chose to continue in their sin and refused to believe God’s Word:

Isa 1:18-21
**18
Come now, let us set things right, says the LORD: Though your sins be like scarlet, they may become white as snow; Though they be crimson red, they may become white as wool.
19
If you are willing, and obey, you shall eat the good things of the land;
20
But if you refuse and resist, the sword shall consume you: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken! **

And then these Jewish leaders thought they could bully an old and unlettered fisherman into turning his back on his Risen Savior. Peter’s responses are noteworthy:

Acts 4: 16-21
**16
“What are we to do with these men? Everyone living in Jerusalem knows that a remarkable sign was done through them, and we cannot deny it.
17
But so that it may not be spread any further among the people, let us give them a stern warning never again to speak to anyone in this name.”
18
So they called them back and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
19
Peter and John, however, said to them in reply, “Whether it is right in the sight of God for us to obey you rather than God, you be the
judges.
20
It is impossible for us not to speak about what we have seen and heard.”
21
After threatening them further, they released them, finding no way to punish them, on account of the people who were all praising God for what had happened. **

Acts 5:28-33
**
28
“We gave you strict orders (did we not?) to stop teaching in that name. Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and want to bring this man’s blood upon us.”
29
But Peter and the apostles said in reply, “We must obey God rather than men.
30
The God of our ancestors raised Jesus, though you had him killed by hanging him on a tree.
31
God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins.
32
We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him.”
33
When they heard this, they became infuriated and wanted to put them to death.**

Just following the lives of these men and their teachings of the Risen Savior brings us to the conclusion that they were truly doing the works of God. After the last Apostle died - we find that their beliefs in all that Christ had taught did not die with them - these Truths were perserved in Apostolic Tradition - predating the NT by almost 400 years. And, in tracing the lives of the saints during this time we find them all faithful to the Catholic Church. Amazing! And, from the 5th Century to the 16th Century - the Catholic Church was still preaching the Word of God, administering the Sacraments caring for the poor, the infirmed, orphaned and widowed while being faithful to Christ’s command to preach the Good News and Baptize all nations.

Looking back at the Jewish leaders who persecuted Christ and His Apostles and the Catholic Church born on that First Pentecost Sunday - we see the obvious denial of God’s Word. They simply refused to look at the evidence and believe. In looking at the posts of those who challenge the idea that Jesus founded the Catholic Church - they, too, refuse to look at the evidence. This is demonstrated by evasion, ignoring what is directly confronting their statements, and ‘moving the goal post’ behavior It does not end here - we will all be held accountable for our behaviors (and that includes our posts… ) and our willful thoughts.

God bless

*Thank you for this magnificent exposition tlqualey.

At Mass this morning I said a little prayer for those who deny the truth or part of the truth. The Catholic Church is for ALL and Protestants are so through no fault of their own. They were raised in this culture and many of them were taught to hate the Catholic Church.

We need only be grateful for the many wonderful Protestants who have come home to the CatholicChurch and have taught us so much.

A good friend gave me two books: Evangelical is not Enough by Thomas Howard and Return to Rome by Francis J. Beckwith (this man was an e-Catholic who rose in the ranks of Protestantism to become the President of the Evangelical Theological Society and then one day the H Spirit tapped him on the shoulder and he returned to the Catholic Church). I have not yet had the time to read this books as I have been super busy. Perhaps some of you might be interested.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Cinette,

I would request that you include everyone that has participated on this thread in your prayers.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

God bless

*Thank you for this magnificent exposition tlqualey.

At Mass this morning I said a little prayer for those who deny the truth or part of the truth. The Catholic Church is for ALL and Protestants are so through no fault of their own. They were raised in this culture and many of them were taught to hate the Catholic Church.

We need only be grateful for the many wonderful Protestants who have come home to the CatholicChurch and have taught us so much.

A good friend gave me two books: Evangelical is not Enough by Thomas Howard and Return to Rome by Francis J. Beckwith (this man was an e-Catholic who rose in the ranks of Protestantism to become the President of the Evangelical Theological Society and then one day the H Spirit tapped him on the shoulder and he returned to the Catholic Church). I have not yet had the time to read this books as I have been super busy. Perhaps some of you might be interested.

 

[Cinette]

Hi, Cinette,

I would request that you include everyone that has participated on this thread in your prayers.

Thank you for the book recommendations.

God bless

*Oh yes! I do acknowledge that there have been many great postings by others on this thread. It is a rich source of information and I have archived some of the posting for re-reading later.

 

[tqualey]

With only a few slots left on this thread, I thought I would attempt a brief summary and request some feedback.

Sufficient evidence was presented to determine that Jesus Christ founded His Church on Peter - at the time, a weak and vain fisherman with a real streak of cowardice. (Matt 16). None of the other Apostles received the symbol of authority and leadership - the Keys. This event, as recorded in Matthew took place sometime during 32 or 33AD.

St. John expired in about the year 100AD and by 107AD Ignatius of Antioch was referring to the Catholic Church. The Apostolic Fathers - those taught by the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers wrote about Faith and understanding of Jesus Christ and the Church He founded on Peter - and Peter’s successors. There is a direct and immedite line that can be drawn from Christ to Peter and now to these successors. - with Benedict XVI being the 266 occupant of that Chair newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

During the period 100 - 553AD, the Catholic Church developed organizationally and moved from being a severely persecuted religion to one at first tolerated and then favored by the Roman Empire beginning with Constine the Great. Several heterodox beliefs sprang up in the Fourth Century and the Bishops of Catholic Church under the ultimate direction of the Pope met and determined specific doctrines. Here is brief list of these early ecuminical councils

I. FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA Year: 325
Summary: To this council we owe the Nicene Creed, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans).

II. FIRST COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE Year: 381
Summary: It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.

III. COUNCIL OF EPHESUS Year: 431
Summary: presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria representing Pope Celestine I, defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.

IV. COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON Year: 451
Summary: defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches, who was excommunicated.

V. SECOND COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE Year: 553
Summary: condemned the errors of Origen and certain writings (The Three Chapters) of Theodoret, of Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia and of Ibas, Bishop of Edessa; it further confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.

For a more detailed view of these and the other ecuminical councils: newadvent.org/library/almanac_14388a.htm

What is noteworthy here is the continuity is documented in both secular and religious writings - and all ultimately traceable to Jesus founding His Church (which is now known as the Catholic Church) upon Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

As we move out from the central point established in Matthew 16 and examine the historical documents from then on until 1054 when the Great Schism took place with the Greeks leaving the Church of the Bishop of Rome and forming their own church. Prior to this, the church at Constantinople viewed the Bishop of Rome as the successor of Peter.

In 1517 when the Protestant revolt began with Luther nailing his 95-Thesis to the door of the Wittenberg cathedral, we find that political demands throughout Europe brought about the splintering of Christianity. Back then, who ruler of the region determined the religion - and political boundaries were the same as religious boundaries. Today, splintering continues but is no longer confined to the religion of the ruler - it appears to be more with the mood of a disharmonious group wanting to leave its parent body and continue in the spirit of Luther, Calvin, et al.

Those opposing the idea that Jesus started the Catholic Church have provided opinion only based on the Protestant revolt. There is NO evidence that Christ returned and spoke to one of the revoluntionaries and said, “I am taking back the recognition I gave to the Catholic Church - and throwing it to the winds - let all pick up some of it and begin the chaos!” Those who formed the Protestant revolt built a church in their own image of Christ and established it on the traditions of men. Opinion is not the singular for data.

God bless

 

[onenow1]

If it is true that Jesus started the Church [Matthew 16:18], did He start the Catholic Church?

Hi Curious Seed

Unless there was some other Christian Denomination early on it would seem so.

Does Matthew 16:18 refer to Christian precepts or Christian organization; if both or either, necessarily Catholic?

After all St.Peter took charge at Pentecost.

God Bless
onenow

 

[onenow1]

Saint Augustine (354-430), one of the Fathers of the Church and Bishop of Hippo, was a most prolific writer, and defender of the Catholic Church. He is quoted by Catholics and non-Catholics alike. In his many writings, he mentioned the Catholic Church by name, more than 300 times.
Here are some of his “Gems”.

“I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so.”
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.​

“You made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you.”
Confessions, 1,1,1, 400 A.D.

His work, “Confessions” is a 13 volume series and is considered to be one of the greatest writings of all time. It is entirely addressed toGOD.home.inreach.com/bstanley/proud.htm

Without diligent historical research to aid us, Jesus after the revolt of Martin Luther, becomes the best teacher, but merely a teacher . This is so sad.

Also I noticed in Rev Kevins signature < What can we do for God? The answer is nothing we can only LOVE and WORSHIP HIM !

God Bless

 

[onenow1]

With only a few slots left on this thread, I thought I would attempt a brief summary and request some feedback.

Sufficient evidence was presented to determine that Jesus Christ founded His Church on Peter - at the time, a weak and vain fisherman with a real streak of cowardice. (Matt 16). None of the other Apostles received the symbol of authority and leadership - the Keys. This event, as recorded in Matthew took place sometime during 32 or 33AD.

St. John expired in about the year 100AD and by 107AD Ignatius of Antioch was referring to the Catholic Church. The Apostolic Fathers - those taught by the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers wrote about Faith and understanding of Jesus Christ and the Church He founded on Peter - and Peter’s successors. There is a direct and immedite line that can be drawn from Christ to Peter and now to these successors. - with Benedict XVI being the 266 occupant of that Chair newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm

During the period 100 - 553AD, the Catholic Church developed organizationally and moved from being a severely persecuted religion to one at first tolerated and then favored by the Roman Empire beginning with Constine the Great. Several heterodox beliefs sprang up in the Fourth Century and the Bishops of Catholic Church under the ultimate direction of the Pope met and determined specific doctrines. Here is brief list of these early ecuminical councils

I. FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA Year: 325
Summary: To this council we owe the Nicene Creed, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans).

II. FIRST COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE Year: 381
Summary: It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.

III. COUNCIL OF EPHESUS Year: 431
Summary: presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria representing Pope Celestine I, defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.

IV. COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON Year: 451
Summary: defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches, who was excommunicated.

V. SECOND COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE Year: 553
Summary: condemned the errors of Origen and certain writings (The Three Chapters) of Theodoret, of Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia and of Ibas, Bishop of Edessa; it further confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.

For a more detailed view of these and the other ecuminical councils: newadvent.org/library/almanac_14388a.htm

What is noteworthy here is the continuity is documented in both secular and religious writings - and all ultimately traceable to Jesus founding His Church (which is now known as the Catholic Church) upon Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

As we move out from the central point established in Matthew 16 and examine the historical documents from then on until 1054 when the Great Schism took place with the Greeks leaving the Church of the Bishop of Rome and forming their own church. Prior to this, the church at Constantinople viewed the Bishop of Rome as the successor of Peter.

In 1517 when the Protestant revolt began with Luther nailing his 95-Thesis to the door of the Wittenberg cathedral, we find that political demands throughout Europe brought about the splintering of Christianity. Back then, who ruler of the region determined the religion - and political boundaries were the same as religious boundaries. Today, splintering continues but is no longer confined to the religion of the ruler - it appears to be more with the mood of a disharmonious group wanting to leave its parent body and continue in the spirit of Luther, Calvin, et al.

Those opposing the idea that Jesus started the Catholic Church have provided opinion only based on the Protestant revolt. There is NO evidence that Christ returned and spoke to one of the revoluntionaries and said, “I am taking back the recognition I gave to the Catholic Church - and throwing it to the winds - let all pick up some of it and begin the chaos!” Those who formed the Protestant revolt built a church in their own image of Christ and established it on the traditions of men. Opinion is not the singular for data.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Onenow1,

I hope this is not considered ‘glolating’… but, I have yet to hear the anything from the Protestant side that effectively invalidates 1,500 years on continuous history. Seriously, it is as though it can be dismissed because of sinful men in the hierarchy of the Catholic Church … and we surely won’t honestly acknowledge the debt owed to the Catholic Church for developing the Canon of Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So, if you just imagine God gave the Holy Bible to men - just like He gave the Ten Commandments to Moses (but, used paper this time! ) and then skip to Luther - the rest is easy!

There was someone who stated that Jesus started the Catholic Church - but, at some point the sinful men in charge just got to be too sinful - (I think around the time of Constantime) and Christ just quit His Bride - walked out - and that was that! And, after that, the history gets a bit murkey - and the historical documentation to support this position apparently has been lost…

To believe in the Protestant position means we must not only suspend judgment, but ignore history … oh, and did I mention that this is made a lot easier if you can use ‘private interpretation’ to bolster SS and SF. I really am clueless on how seemingly intelligent people can ignore what has happend and been recorded centuries ago - and follow only a human image of Christ based on human traditions. This requires some very serious deception.

Like Cinette said, there are those who have been taught to hate the Catholic Church (or, at least some contrived view of the Catholic Church) from the cradle. Their challenge to find the Truth of Christ is great. There are those who are honestly looking for the Truth of Christ and His Church - and our prayers are with them every day! Unfortunately, there are those who want to just play games, taunt the Church of Christ and lead others astray. Such behavior is worrisome - not that the Catholic Church will be stopped - but that time for all of us is like a flower that blooms in the morning and is wilted by the next day. When it is time to stand in Judgment before the King - all ‘games’ will end.

God bless

 

[jahluver]

That does not say anything with regards the topic. Attending to what you have written will derail the thread.

The question is did Christ start the Catholic Church.

If your answer is no please give support.

If you are not well versed in history, since I presume your are a Christian then please provide Biblical support.

I think it comments on the topic perfectly in saying that Jesus could not have started the Catholic church because He doesnt make mistakes,and theres been lots of questionable actions and more importantly blaspemies done in his name,the Crusades is just one example of the Pope being able to stop something and didnt in the name of our Christ,thats why I think its wrong to give that position so much power,its run by a man who is fallable,remember theres not on good,no not one, and I fear that these men put the doctrine there and not the Holy Spirit

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think it comments on the topic perfectly in saying that Jesus could not have started the Catholic church because He doesnt make mistakes,and theres been lots of questionable actions and more importantly blaspemies done in his name,the Crusades is just one example of the Pope being able to stop something and didnt in the name of our Christ,thats why I think its wrong to give that position so much power,its run by a man who is fallable,remember theres not on good,no not one, and I fear that these men put the doctrine there and not the Holy Spirit

Didn’t Jesus choose Peter, who denied Him three times, Thomas, who doubted Him, and Judas, who betrayed Him? Didn’t Jesus have disciples that left Him and walked with Him no more?

Christ knew, and knows, all men. He knew what He was building His Church on.

Now please tell us that Church that has perfect men, that have never made any mistakes.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,
Like Cinette said, there are those who have been taught to hate the Catholic Church (or, at least some contrived view of the Catholic Church) from the cradle. Their challenge to find the Truth of Christ is great. There are those who are honestly looking for the Truth of Christ and His Church - and our prayers are with them every day! Unfortunately, there are those who want to just play games, taunt the Church of Christ and lead others astray. Such behavior is worrisome - not that the Catholic Church will be stopped - but that time for all of us is like a flower that blooms in the morning and is wilted by the next day. When it is time to stand in Judgment before the King - all ‘games’ will end.

God bless

Hi, Tqualey,

Right on again

He did ask us to preach His gospel, and bring all to the TRUTH> JESUS. There is a vehicle He gave us the Church; understanding Saul going to Damascus and recognizing Jesus, as the head of the Christian Church should give pause to all for understading the nature of Church.So not to believe Jesus subsists in the Catholic Church defies reason, and reasonableness, all we can do is pray and fast for all those doubters.

God Bless
:coffeeread:

 

[elvisman]

I think it comments on the topic perfectly in saying that Jesus could not have started the Catholic church because He doesnt make mistakes,and theres been lots of questionable actions and more importantly blaspemies done in his name,the Crusades is just one example of the Pope being able to stop something and didnt in the name of our Christ,thats why I think its wrong to give that position so much power,its run by a man who is fallable,remember theres not on good,no not one, and I fear that these men put the doctrine there and not the Holy Spirit

Oh, dear - here we go again.

The fate of Christ’s Church doesn’t depend on the Pope’s impeccability. NOBODY is impeccable.
The fate of the Church DOES depend on the Holy’ Spirit’s reveald truths, which the Church was guaranteed by Jesus himself (John 16:12-15).

As for your false use of Rom. 3:10, 23, it explicitly states: *“There is no one righteous, not even one; *For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

---

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, *"The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “*righteous.” (Ummm . . . I thought there were NONE righteous . . .)

---

St. Paul** was using inclusive** language. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the carnival last year. He is referring to the mass of mankind but God can and does make exceptions for anybody he wishes. **

 

[onenow1]

I think it comments on the topic perfectly in saying that Jesus could not have started the Catholic church because He doesn’t make mistakes,and theres been lots of questionable actions and more importantly blasphemies done in his name,the Crusades is just one example of the Pope being able to stop something and didn’t in the name of our Christ,thats why I think its wrong to give that position so much power,its run by a man who is fallible,remember theres not on good,no not one, and I fear that these men put the doctrine there and not the Holy Spirit

Hi, jahluver

Indeed and irrelevant ! And Judas was the first example into the nature of man. ! Chosen by the God Man ! There can only be one institutional Church, after all Jesus did say this.

God Bless

 

[Cinette]

I think it comments on the topic perfectly in saying that Jesus could not have started the Catholic church because He doesnt make mistakes,and theres been lots of questionable actions and more importantly blaspemies done in his name,the Crusades is just one example of the Pope being able to stop something and didnt in the name of our Christ,thats why I think its wrong to give that position so much power,its run by a man who is fallable,remember theres not on good,no not one, and I fear that these men put the doctrine there and not the Holy Spirit

*Seriously jahluver - I promised myself that I would be good and charitable and gracious. When I come across a posting like yours I feel the need to defend the truth and I should. However, let’s face it, what you really need to do is to study history. Your comments on the Crusades demonstrates ignorance and as for the History of the Church you really need to do some serious study.

I recommend you read this entire thread with an open mind. When you get to the end, if you are honest, you might acknowledge that you are somewhat enlightened. When that happens PM me and comment.

God bless
Cinette*

 

[elvisman]

Hi, jahluver

Indeed and irrelevant ! And Judas was the first example into the nature of man. ! Chosen by the God Man !

Great point.

 

[jahluver]

He did not found His church,then what did he build? He certainly did not give us a nicely compiled Bible.

not nicely, perfectly,and the closer you stick to it and follow it and not mans religious system and dogma, the more closer to Jesus you become,He and God alone share the same glory with no one else in the middle