Did Jesus truly experience humanity?

[Dan_Defender]

Yes he did: ‘For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.’ John 10: 17-18

 

[LateCatholic]

How do the miracles of Jesus show that He is G-d if, as you say, many saints of the OT also performed miracles and they are not G-d?

This is where it gets complex. A good response in another part of this thread is that we ALL can perform the same miracles as Jesus. We just aren’t “advanced” enough. I completely disagree with this, as I think most people would as well - but it DOES resolve the issue.

But as is pointed out above - if you claim we ALL can perform the same deeds as Jesus, then what is your definition of “divine”? You can’t have it both ways.

My purpose of this thread was to show that the Jesus portrayed in the Bible uses his divine abilities for his own personal well-being - whether that is to ease his grief or aid his mother. Thus, in my opinion, Catholic theology is wrong. Jesus is not God made man - he is God made “superman”. The theological distinction is important, and I think the Jesus portrayed by Catholic teaching is somewhat misleading. I’m also interested in the theological implications.

 

[LateCatholic]

And the raising of Lazarus wasn’t for him, but for us. He is showing us he has power to raise the dead, because he is the Resurrection and the Life, and if we believe in Him, we shall never die.

This contradicts the story. Jesus loved Lazarus, and he wept when he reached his tomb. He was actually leaving, but came back. Also, the story of the water and wine clearly was done because his mother was upset.

 

[LateCatholic]

I’m gonna put it out there that a man who is also God does not experience the human condition in the same way that people who are not also God experience the human condition.

Right - he’s not a man, he’s a “superman”. This is my point. So theologically, I think it is misleading to claim he was human.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

One way to look at it is we don’t all experience life the same way.

You could have a wheelchair-bound, multi-disabilities person operating at the level of a four month old, who will never be able to do anything for themself.

Then you can have a talented, healthy, well adjusted polymath who accomplishes many things in their long life.

Which one truly experienced the human condition ?

 

[Start]

Jesus specifically said that it was for the Glory of God in the case of Lazarus and the miracle at Cana was mostly to show the power of Mary’s intercession.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Perhaps it was not Jesus but his prayers to the Father that brought about the miracles. So not Jesus but the Father did them all.

 

[PetraG]

Right - he’s not a man, he’s a “superman”. This is my point. So theologically, I think it is misleading to claim he was human.

No, it is misleading to believe that a great saint is superhuman rather than truly human.

It is Jesus and Mary who were normal. The rest of us are not more human, but rather suffer from a disabled humanity, a humanity crippled by rebellion, self-centeredness and the wages of sin. Our Lord became one of us not so he could “experience humanity” but so that humanity itself could hope to truly experience the gift of our humanity.

We are made in the image and likeness of God, created to be one with God and to share the mind of God. Christ came so that we might fulfill our intended destiny. It is not helpful to complain that he isn’t one of us simply because he has been what we are meant to be, rather than the failing versions that we are.

Otherwise, you may as well say that someone who hasn’t struggled with an addiction or a serious injury or hasn’t been abandoned by their parents or who knows what isn’t “really” human. It doesn’t make sense.

 

[LateCatholic]

Then you can have a talented, healthy, well adjusted polymath who accomplishes many things in their long life.

Which one truly experienced the human condition ?

Certainly good points but don’t you think we are talking about a different level when someone can raise people from the dead? A genius and a disabled person are both human. A being that can raise from the dead?

 

[LateCatholic]

It is not helpful to complain that he isn’t one of us simply because he has been what we are meant to be, rather than the failing versions that we are.

I am neither complaining nor trying to be helpful. I am simply raising the point that to claim Jesus “became man” is very misleading.

someone who hasn’t struggled with an addiction or a serious injury or hasn’t been abandoned by their parents or who knows what isn’t “really” human.

No - the point is Jesus DID experience those things, and invoked his god-like power to fix it. I don’t think such a being qualifies as human. Why would you think it does?

Again, this is a theological discussion. “God became man”, as stated in Christian dogma, is at best misleading and at worst false. I personally think it’s somewhere in the middle.

 

[LateCatholic]

Perhaps it was not Jesus but his prayers to the Father that brought about the miracles. So not Jesus but the Father did them all.

That still doesn’t change the point that he had super-human powers, even if that power was being able to communicate with God.

 

[Dorothy]

Adam and Eve were full of grace when they were created. They walked with God. When they were tempted and disobeyed that was “the fall” (from grace.)

 

[LateCatholic]

Jesus specifically said that it was for the Glory of God in the case of Lazarus and the miracle at Cana was mostly to show the power of Mary’s intercession.

But Jesus picked two situations that where the miracle he performed benefited him. He could have picked any person to raise from the dead. He could have picked any party to “improve”. He picked those miracles that benefited him personally. In some ways this shows he was “more human”, but it certainly also shows he was much more than human.

Again, most people responding seem to be upset that I even am bringing this up. Nothing is subjective here:

1. Jesus experiences human “challenges”- grief, personal problems, etc
2. Jesus uses his divine power WHILE ON EARTH to fix those challenges
3. How can we claim he is then human, if such acts cannot be performed by a human?
4. By performing those acts, did Jesus invalidate his status of “being human” or “God made man”.

I’m surprised that not a single person yet has simply stated that yes, Jesus was not truly human, he was in many ways a “superman” (or use some other term). I honestly don’t see how that can even be disputed. Now, my real question - what are the theological implications now that we admit he was not really “man”, but rather something greater? I think it’s a good question.

 

[Start]

Nobody here is upset, but merely disputing your superhuman idea and up to this point nobody has admitted that He was a superman.

Jesus also made 2 others rise from the dead apart from Lazarus. Really this was a one time thing and for the most part, Jesus was helping others, not Himself. Besides Lazarus, I can’t think of another time that Jesus used His powers to fix His problems. John the Baptist didn’t get any help from Jesus after his death even though He was a dear relative. Like I said before the prophets from the Old Testament had similar powers, but aren’t super human.

 

[Dorothy]

We believe Jesus took on a human nature and that He is 100% human and 100% Divine.

(I am not a theologian but will try to explain the best way I can).

So, we believe that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity took on a human nature to redeem us and show us how to live.

The Three Persons in God are pure spirit…but now the Second Person has a Glorified Human Body - the Redeemer of fallen mankind. We believe if we pick up the cross of our daily lives always seek His grace through prayer and the Sacraments, then we too will rise with glorified bodies.

It sounds reasonable to say that Jesus’ human nature differs from other human natures since He always obeyed the Will of the Father and of course is sinless.

I didn’t graduate from any theological schools, but that is the best way I understand it.

 

[Dorothy]

All I know is that Jesus, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, had super Love to do what He did for us.

 

[fisherman_carl]

This contradicts the story. Jesus loved Lazarus, and he wept when he reached his tomb. He was actually leaving, but came back. Also, the story of the water and wine clearly was done because his mother was upset.

It doesn’t contradict the story because remember what Jesus said to Martha before He raised Lazarus from the dead. Jesus told her that Lazarus would rise even before he got there and got emotional. He told her that He is the Resurrection and the Life. Everything in the bible is there for a reason. It wasn’t just that Jesus was upset so that he raised Lazarus. It was part of God’s plan to demonstrate that He has power over death. It shows us who Jesus is. That He is God.

 

[PJM]

So we know according to Catholic theology Jesus is divine, but became man to experience humanity. But did he truly experience humanity? So assume the stories of the Bible are true. He was able to perform miracles. And many of his miracles were in order to ease his personal pain. Examples include but are not limited to:

1. Raising Lazarus from the dead. Specifically, Jesus was so upset his friend died, he just raised him from the dead.
2. Water into wine at mother’s friend’s party. When things go wrong, Jesus fixed them.

The point being, did Jesus truly experience the human condition if he could, at any time, change the situation through a miracle? Clearly, he DID change the situation when things were going wrong. So can we honestly say he was truly human?
Please address from a theological and philosophical point of vie

Perhaps a better question MIGHT be: WHY did Jesus assume the mantel OF sinful man?

First: Jesus {GOD} freely choose to do so in order that humanity MIGHT be able to attain heaven; whose GATE was locked before it even became used:

Genesis 3: 23-24
[[23] And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. [[24]And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Secondly Jesus became true man like US in EVERY way but sin to model for us the Path of and For Salvation.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Usagi]

Jesus was, both biologically and spiritually, a human being. His occasional miracles, which stem from His divine nature and mission, do not obviate that simple fact.

Though we see that Jesus grieved at the death of Lazarus (one of the moments in which His humanity is most clearly displayed), it was not to ease His own grief or make His life easier that He raised Lazarus. He tells the disciples, in fact, that Lazarus’ death at that particular time had occurred specifically so that Jesus could raise him, as a sign of God’s glory and Jesus’ own status as “the Resurrection and the Life.”

At the wedding at Cana, Jesus did address a fairly minor human problem in the overall scheme of things, but by doing so, He also announced Himself and commenced His public mission.

Jesus was not immune to the travails of being human. Yes, He sometimes exercised extraordinary power, but far more often He did not. Most notably, He did not avoid His arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane (despite expressing a fervent wish to avoid the ultimate outcome were it possible) and He did not, as the mocking Romans suggested, free Himself from the Cross. He could have done so easily — and in some ways it’s even more impressive that He willingly underwent such torment when He had to keep willing it every single moment — but it would have been a betrayal of the entire purpose of His life as a human.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Did he experience being human? He knew what it was to be hungry, to be cold, to be hot, to be tired. I’m sure he had dirty diapers and tripped and skinned his knee.
My opinion is that he had a more INTENSE experience of being human. He was the word of God incarnate, yet remained silent in the womb, and obeyed the limitation of being an infant although he could understand all the languages of the world. He knew the hearts of the people around him and could say ‘There is a man with no guile’. I also think he knew all the sins and burdens that each one of us carries. He was grass roots human. We cannot comprehend this mystery with our limited minds.