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Hoxbar
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My question is straightforward and simple. Did Jesus turn the water into wine or grape juice? My church says it’s grape juice but my reading of the story makes me believe it was wine.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Your Church is letting its bias against all alcoholic beverages override the truth that it was wine.
If it was Grape juice, it would have spoiled within a matter of hours. Wine allowed the beverage to last for an extended period of time without going bad, a true necessity in the arid regions of Israel.
Notice that the steward claims that Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now. Why is this? Because everyone is too drunk to notice that the inferior wine is now being served.
Also, the means of preserving grape juice for a period longer than a few hours wasn’t invented for oh… about 1820 years later.
If it was Grape juice, it would have spoiled within a matter of hours. Wine allowed the beverage to last for an extended period of time without going bad, a true necessity in the arid regions of Israel.
Notice that the steward claims that Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now. Why is this? Because everyone is too drunk to notice that the inferior wine is now being served.
Also, the means of preserving grape juice for a period longer than a few hours wasn’t invented for oh… about 1820 years later.
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Hoxbar
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Pasturization, I guess, never thought about that
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Belloc_Fan
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I was just using this as an example earlier today to one of my friends, to explain what happens when you start with a system of etiquette/morality, and try to interpret the Bible in that light. You’ll find praises of alcoholic beverages in the Bible, and condemnation of drunkenness. It’s not different from much of anything else - God gave us gifts (food, marital sex, etc.) but warns us not to abuse them.
If anyone on this forum honestly thinks it’s grape juice, I would love to hear any early Christian source which agrees with you, etc. I mean, it’s a wedding. Who drinks grape juice at a wedding? I guess the answer is no one before 1869 (the year Welch pasteurized the grape).
Poking fun at “American morals,” G.K. Chesterton said this:
Hope this helps in some way. I see the whole “wine means grape juice” eisegesis as one of the extreme points of the Reformation - when anyone and everyone can form their own interpretation, you get some pretty wild results.
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plain_me
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It was absolutely wine, and some good enough reasons have already been given.
I have recently been studying this, as I have periodically over the years since I got married to a Roman Catholic girl. There are far too many instances in Scripture that point to the fact that God gave wine to man as a gift to be enjoyed. If it were merely another fruit juice, what would be the point of mentioning it?
I grew up in an Independent Fundamental Baptist church that was (and is, I presume) strongly against drinking in any amount. I struggled with this (among many other things) when my wife and I disagreed over it. She wanted to work at a restaurant when I was going to an IFB Bible college. I studied it out after telling her that I didn’t want her working where she would be serving alcohol. I finally conceded by saying that I thought that the Bible taught it to be best for Christians to stay away from it, but that I couldn’t keep her from serving it. I have since realized that wine is a gift to be enjoyed, and that the only real way to enjoy wine is to drink it (duh!). I obviously drink it in moderation, but I would advise anyone with a prior problem with alcohol to keep far away.
By the way, don’t let anyone try to argue that the Greek word oinos is the bad one and that there is some other word used (which I can’t remember at the moment) that means grape juice. They are used intechangeably in obvious circumstances that have alcoholic wine in mind. Check e-sword for these Greek (and Hebrew) words, and you will have a nice argument for anyone who is misleading you.
Oh, and Ecclesiastes is a great reference, too. Solomon never condemns drinking wine or any other practice that God has gifted us with to be enjoyed; he merely advises that everything that we do must be done in the fear of the Lord. You obviously cannot be stumbling drunk with no control over the body that is supposed to be Spirit-led in the fear of the Lord, but you can enjoy a glass of wine with a great meal on your anniversary and glorify God by doing so.
I have recently been studying this, as I have periodically over the years since I got married to a Roman Catholic girl. There are far too many instances in Scripture that point to the fact that God gave wine to man as a gift to be enjoyed. If it were merely another fruit juice, what would be the point of mentioning it?
I grew up in an Independent Fundamental Baptist church that was (and is, I presume) strongly against drinking in any amount. I struggled with this (among many other things) when my wife and I disagreed over it. She wanted to work at a restaurant when I was going to an IFB Bible college. I studied it out after telling her that I didn’t want her working where she would be serving alcohol. I finally conceded by saying that I thought that the Bible taught it to be best for Christians to stay away from it, but that I couldn’t keep her from serving it. I have since realized that wine is a gift to be enjoyed, and that the only real way to enjoy wine is to drink it (duh!). I obviously drink it in moderation, but I would advise anyone with a prior problem with alcohol to keep far away.
By the way, don’t let anyone try to argue that the Greek word oinos is the bad one and that there is some other word used (which I can’t remember at the moment) that means grape juice. They are used intechangeably in obvious circumstances that have alcoholic wine in mind. Check e-sword for these Greek (and Hebrew) words, and you will have a nice argument for anyone who is misleading you.
Oh, and Ecclesiastes is a great reference, too. Solomon never condemns drinking wine or any other practice that God has gifted us with to be enjoyed; he merely advises that everything that we do must be done in the fear of the Lord. You obviously cannot be stumbling drunk with no control over the body that is supposed to be Spirit-led in the fear of the Lord, but you can enjoy a glass of wine with a great meal on your anniversary and glorify God by doing so.
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fellowChristian
Guest
Luke 7:33-34
33"For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
34"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
John 2:1-11
Miracle at Cana
3When the **wine **ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
1 Timothy 5:23
23No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
1st. why would the Bible say wine and not juice?
2nd. Why would Jesus be called a drunkard?
3rd. Why didn’t Paul write “a little juice is good for our stomaches.”?
Before 1521a.d. all Christian Churches used wine for the Lord’s Supper, then again all the Christian Churches were Catholic
Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an “unfermented sacramental wine” for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. The year? 1869 a.d.
Genesis 14:18
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.
Hebrews 6:20
20where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
33"For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
34"The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
John 2:1-11
Miracle at Cana
3When the **wine **ran out, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
1 Timothy 5:23
23No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.
1st. why would the Bible say wine and not juice?
2nd. Why would Jesus be called a drunkard?
3rd. Why didn’t Paul write “a little juice is good for our stomaches.”?
Before 1521a.d. all Christian Churches used wine for the Lord’s Supper, then again all the Christian Churches were Catholic
Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an “unfermented sacramental wine” for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. The year? 1869 a.d.
Genesis 14:18
18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.
Hebrews 6:20
20where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
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Eucharisted
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Grape juice didn’t exist in Jesus’ time. But wine sure did!
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06convert
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Wait. … . Hoxbar. This isn’t a Catholic parish using juice is it?
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Hoxbar
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No, I’m not Catholic I’m Assembly of God. I am however reviewing what my church teaches and why. I grew up in a very committed A/G family, I know what we believe and why. But as I started raising a family I started questioning why exactly do we believe this or that. Even though I know the Scripture references for the reasons, I’ve started trying to read the passage in more than one version to see if what I’ve been taught is really what it means. I’ve often had questions about church history and I’m finding that the Catholic Church was the first church. I knew this but growing up it ment nothing to me. But I’m on a journey and only God knows where I’ll end up. Pray that I’ll find the answers I seek. THANKS
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FCEGM
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God bless you on your journey, Hoxbar. And welcome to CAF; I hope you’ll find this Forum as well as the Catholic Answers Library (linked above) very helpful.
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Robbinson
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Hi - my family still worships at AOG (wife and children) - I’m in RCIA now. My journey started with a pull towards the sacrements. I’ve been co-worshipping at AOG and the Anglican church for the last 2 plus years as I continue to move, doctrinally, towards Catholicism… Tim Staples is a wonderful Catholic apologist (on staff at Catholic answers) who is a formerly ordained AOG pastor. I just finished listening to his 5 CD debate with a non-denominational protestant minister - very respectful, yet very powerful. Good luck in your journey.
Blessings,
Brian
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plain_me
Guest
The idea that grape juice didn’t exist at the time that Christ lived on the earth seems to be a bit extreme, given that fact that they couldn’t possibly have had wine without starting with juice. Comments like that seem to try to disguise a lack of a positive argument with an attempt to make somebody look stupid (ex: I’m wrong? Oh yeah, well look at your stupid haircut!). Like I said, I don’t agree that Jesus merely turned water into juice, but saying stuff like this doesn’t promote real discussion. Let’s try to keep the Forum Rules in mind…
FellowChristian, I’m not aware of which Greek or Hebrew word that a Biblical writer could’ve used to make it clear that it was juice and not wine, but I’d like to know so that I can ask the same question to advocates of the “juice only” position. To my knowledge, the reason that there is confusion is because the Greek and Hebrew words used can mean either or depending on the context. I’m just not aware of any word that refers exclusively to juice, and I can’t ask someon that question unless there really was a commonly used alternative to wine. Thanks.
Also, FellowChristian, I was wondering (though, I don’t mean to get off-topic) what you mean when you say that every Christian church before 1521 was Catholic. I would say that every true church until now truly is a part of the Catholic church, but I use that word in the way that the earliest Christians used the word, not in the relatively modern sense of Roman Catholic Church, but Universally Christian Catholic Church. Like I said, I don’t want to get off-topic, but I’ve been reading quite a bit of the patristic writers and can’t agree with you if you mean it how I think you mean it. I suppose I ought to get used to these kinds of assertions given the environment, huh? If you’d like to answer this last part of my question without getting off-topic, drop me a PM or (if you think it would be better) start another thread.
Thanks again.
FellowChristian, I’m not aware of which Greek or Hebrew word that a Biblical writer could’ve used to make it clear that it was juice and not wine, but I’d like to know so that I can ask the same question to advocates of the “juice only” position. To my knowledge, the reason that there is confusion is because the Greek and Hebrew words used can mean either or depending on the context. I’m just not aware of any word that refers exclusively to juice, and I can’t ask someon that question unless there really was a commonly used alternative to wine. Thanks.
Also, FellowChristian, I was wondering (though, I don’t mean to get off-topic) what you mean when you say that every Christian church before 1521 was Catholic. I would say that every true church until now truly is a part of the Catholic church, but I use that word in the way that the earliest Christians used the word, not in the relatively modern sense of Roman Catholic Church, but Universally Christian Catholic Church. Like I said, I don’t want to get off-topic, but I’ve been reading quite a bit of the patristic writers and can’t agree with you if you mean it how I think you mean it. I suppose I ought to get used to these kinds of assertions given the environment, huh? If you’d like to answer this last part of my question without getting off-topic, drop me a PM or (if you think it would be better) start another thread.
Thanks again.
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Brendan
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Sure it did, but it quickly turned to either wine or vinegar
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tobinatorstark
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what does the scriptures say???
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redrosetea
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Jesus was a Jew and Jews drank wine not juice…I wonder why some don’t get this when Christ talked about putting new wine in old wine skins.?..The fermentation process is violent and the wine skins would have been split open in the process
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tobinatorstark
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Hey Follow me into another thread. I do want to know more about what the Assembly of God believes. It will be under non-Catholic forum. BTW I believe that it was wine that Jesus turned the water to.
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Hoxbar
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I’m here asking, not telling. You tell me?
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LeroyCRHP
Guest
With all respect, if you have ever made wine you realize how quickly you have either vinegar or wine as people have pointed out. It really is true.
Remember, no refrigerator and no pasteurization. Even 1500 years later when the Pilgrims migrated beer and wine were their main drinks. If you read the volume of beer and wine they had on board it would sound like a party barge.
*The reason for beer’s advantage over water is harmful microorganisms cannot survive long in beer (or wine). Of course you can boil water to make it safe, but in the 1600s no one knew microorganisms were the source of their health problems. People just knew beer was safe and water was not. So yes, the pilgrims drank beer.
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Remember, no refrigerator and no pasteurization. Even 1500 years later when the Pilgrims migrated beer and wine were their main drinks. If you read the volume of beer and wine they had on board it would sound like a party barge.
*The reason for beer’s advantage over water is harmful microorganisms cannot survive long in beer (or wine). Of course you can boil water to make it safe, but in the 1600s no one knew microorganisms were the source of their health problems. People just knew beer was safe and water was not. So yes, the pilgrims drank beer.
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- *Beer was the main source of water at the time *
- *Ships carried wine and beer for long voyages *
- *The Mayflower was a wine vessel capable of carrying 180 casks of wine
The idea that grape juice didn’t exist at the time that Christ lived on the earth seems to be a bit extreme, given that fact that they couldn’t possibly have had wine without starting with juice. Comments like that seem to try to disguise a lack of a positive argument with an attempt to make somebody look stupid (ex: I’m wrong? Oh yeah, well look at your stupid haircut!). Like I said, I don’t agree that Jesus merely turned water into juice, but saying stuff like this doesn’t promote real discussion. Let’s try to keep the Forum Rules in mind…
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yearginchess
Guest
I understand the word “wine” to mean, well, WINE. Sacred Scripture states that Jesus turned the water into WINE.
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danaemariejoan
Guest
I know that Jesus turned water into wine because, I am sure you have read the scripture reading about this, it directly says that He changed water into wine. Considering this we really should believe the scripture that He did indeed change it to wine.
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