Did Jesus understand our sufferings from time eternal?

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My question is:

Did Jesus, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being omnipresent understand in every way our sufferings, our pain, our sorrows, our temptations, our burdens from time eternal, or did he finally understand these things through His experience when He took on our flesh in the incarnation? What I mean is a difference between empathy and sympathy - could the Son sympathize with us before He came in the flesh? Did He come not only to die for us, but to also understand (for sympathy) what we are going through so He could be our perfect advocate?

Peace
 
My question is:

Did Jesus, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being omnipresent understand in every way our sufferings, our pain, our sorrows, our temptations, our burdens from time eternal, or did he finally understand these things through His experience when He took on our flesh in the incarnation? What I mean is a difference between empathy and sympathy - could the Son sympathize with us before He came in the flesh? Did He come not only to die for us, but to also understand (for sympathy) what we are going through so He could be our perfect advocate?

Peace
God came “in the flesh” to let us know how much He really understands our sufferings and temptations. He gives us chance after chance to come to Him. He wants a personal relationship with us. Being God, He understood every facet of our lives knowing the number of hairs on our head from before He created us, since He knew He would create us. He knitted us in our mothers’ wombs. He is our “perfect advocate” not because He came to "understand (for sympathy) . . . but because the Son is God Himself and therefore is the perfect advocate.
 
My question is:

Did Jesus, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being omnipresent understand in every way our sufferings, our pain, our sorrows, our temptations, our burdens from time eternal, or did he finally understand these things through His experience when He took on our flesh in the incarnation? What I mean is a difference between empathy and sympathy - could the Son sympathize with us before He came in the flesh? Did He come not only to die for us, but to also understand (for sympathy) what we are going through so He could be our perfect advocate?

Peace
Hi tsering and welcome,

This is a great questions!!!

First off the Trinity is a mystery and we will never comprehend how it works in our human state. Since Jesus is God and all knowing, he knew and understood how we feel emotions and pain before He became flesh. To show love for us He chose to become man. God lowered His state to a mere mortal and walked among us. He still had 2 natures within Himself, human and devine, but he allowed Himself to feel as a man.

Eventhough He is God, His human nature prayed for this cup to pass him in the garden. But then He said, “Your will be done” meaning the will of God the Father. He understood that He was the only one who could make a sufficient sacrifice to attone for mankind’s sin. Sin from the past, His present time and in the future (our time and beyond).

Our Lord allowed Himself to be humiliated, friends run away, become defenseless, beat almost to death and then carried the cross to His death. Imagine knowing how you were going to die such a brutal death and still carry on His ministry. He had to hold those feelings inside during His lifetime and deal with them.

IMO He suffered the most brutal death offered during the age He lived. The Romans were cruel and new how to inflict pain to the max.

No, He just didn’t do it to find out how it would feel. He knew what He was getting into and still did it out of love for us. And everyone still does not believe???

Jesus is love and mercy but there will be a day when He becomes Judge. I hope I’m am prepared properly when that time comes.

Thanks for asking a very good question. God Bless you.
 
God came “in the flesh” to let us know how much He really understands our sufferings and temptations. He gives us chance after chance to come to Him. He wants a personal relationship with us. Being God, He understood every facet of our lives knowing the number of hairs on our head from before He created us, since He knew He would create us. He knitted us in our mothers’ wombs. He is our “perfect advocate” not because He came to "understand (for sympathy) . . . but because the Son is God Himself and therefore is the perfect advocate.
Okay. I agree. God understands and always has understood our sufferings. Now my questions goes a little deeper, but maybe I’m just making word plays. Tell me if you think this statement is correct:

He never went through or experienced those sufferings until He came in the flesh. Empathy is the ability to understand someone else’s sufferings without having actually experiencing them for oneself. Sympathy on the other hand is understanding someone else’s sufferings because you have actually experienced them for yourself. Was God, the Son, flesh from time eternal or was because He is beyond time that He has always known what it is like to be living and suffering in the flesh? Has He personally experienced our sufferings from time eternal?

Peace
 
Okay. I agree. God understands and always has understood our sufferings. Now my questions goes a little deeper, but maybe I’m just making word plays. Tell me if you think this statement is correct:

He never went through or experienced those sufferings until He came in the flesh. Empathy is the ability to understand someone else’s sufferings without having actually experiencing them for oneself. Sympathy on the other hand is understanding someone else’s sufferings because you have actually experienced them for yourself. Was God, the Son, flesh from time eternal or was because He is beyond time that He has always known what it is like to be living and suffering in the flesh? Has He personally experienced our sufferings from time eternal?

Peace
I agree that Our Lord, Jesus, didn’t physically go through or experience the great sufferings of His Passion and death “until He came in the flesh.” However, being God, as well as man, He not only knew everything He was to suffer, He knew it from all eternity. As He prayed to His Father before His great sacrifice, His sweat became like drops of blood in the Garden of Olives. With God everything is in the present tense. When He sees us at the merest glance, He sees not only ourselves as we exist this present moment, but every moment of our lives all at once, from the moment of conception to the moment of our deaths.

I think the concepts of “sympathy” and “empathy” regarding God’s understanding of our nature do not apply because they are human expressions for human emotions. We use those words and others to help us understand God’s actions in our lives. It’s like saying God is enraged as in the sense of human anger. However, He is a pure Spirit so all is conceptualized. At least that’s how I understand it. The Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by human beings who expressed God’s dealings with His people in ways that humans would understand. Yet, God is above all emotive expressions.

God knows our sufferings and experiences our pain, but, like I said above, He need not cry tears or be emotive even though He understands perfectly and to a much greater extent than we, ourselves, can understand or even experience. He understands and experiences all the reasons for our sufferings and unites them to His own if we are willing, so they would become for us meritorious.

I hope I have added something to the discussion. I’m sure a theologian would be of help here. It’s a great question as PAboy57 said. I hope more people add to this thread. The Cathechism may have more on this as well.
 
Actually this article is exactly the idea that I’m trying to portray. Read it and tell me what you think, especially the first section. (Maybe the use of the word “understand” is inappropriate).

biblecourses.com/English/downloads/pdfs/CrossLessons/Why_Did_Jesus_Have_to_Suffer.pdf

Peace
“Jesus had to qualify Himself to be the kind of High Priest that God wanted us to have.”

The above quote is an example from the article of what I was trying to say in the post above. If we think in human terms, it would seem that Jesus, having to quality Himself, may or may not make the grade. But, of course, we know that Jesus is God, Perfection in every way. But as it says further into the article, Jesus did not have to become perfect or qualify Himself in moral integrity or sinlessness because He was already perfect.
A perfect human and divine sacrifice was necessary: “Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (2:14). Jesus had to take on our human nature to atone fully for the sin, becoming a “little less than the angels.”
Interesting article. It does sound like it has a Protestant flavor to it using bible quotes as the basic explanatory means. A Catholic way, it seems to me, explores the metaphysical dimensions somewhat more but also makes use of biblical exegesis.
 
I agree that Our Lord, Jesus, didn’t physically go through or experience the great sufferings of His Passion and death “until He came in the flesh.” However, being God, as well as man, He not only knew everything He was to suffer, He knew it from all eternity. As He prayed to His Father before His great sacrifice, His sweat became like drops of blood in the Garden of Olives. With God everything is in the present tense. When He sees us at the merest glance, He sees not only ourselves as we exist this present moment, but every moment of our lives all at once, from the moment of conception to the moment of our deaths.

I think the concepts of “sympathy” and “empathy” regarding God’s understanding of our nature do not apply because they are human expressions for human emotions. We use those words and others to help us understand God’s actions in our lives. It’s like saying God is enraged as in the sense of human anger. However, He is a pure Spirit so all is conceptualized. At least that’s how I understand it. The Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by human beings who expressed God’s dealings with His people in ways that humans would understand. Yet, God is above all emotive expressions.

God knows our sufferings and experiences our pain, but, like I said above, He need not cry tears or be emotive even though He understands perfectly and to a much greater extent than we, ourselves, can understand or even experience. He understands and experiences all the reasons for our sufferings and unites them to His own if we are willing, so they would become for us meritorious.

I hope I have added something to the discussion. I’m sure a theologian would be of help here. It’s a great question as PAboy57 said. I hope more people add to this thread. The Cathechism may have more on this as well.
Great answer! I can tell you the background of this. When I was a missionary (protestant) in China, I worked with a lot of Muslims who would often want to know why God had to come in the flesh and suffer for us. My simple answer was because He loves us and that He became our Paschal lamb, meriting for us salvation through His sacrifice on the cross. To die on our behalf, He had to take on flesh. But more than that I would explain the need for the incarnation, in that as a perfect Man, He was able to conquer our temptations, bear our sufferings, and fulfill the Law. I would also say that He can sympathize with our sufferings as He has gone through them Himself.

Now in that language there is sometimes a blur between “knowing” and “experiencing.” To truly know, is to truly experience. This became a problem for me, when answering this question to a Muslim, I used the word “jingguo” which is “went through” or “experienced” but then turned around and translated it to my American fundamentalist friend as “understand.” He didn’t like this, and assumed that I was a heretic. At the end we finally reconciled by me stating that yes I believed that God has always known everything, but that the Son, chose to know (experience) our sufferings by coming in flesh because of His great love. And anyways, it becomes one of those issues where God didn’t have to do anything, because He’s God (He knows all, has seen all, and can do all), but He chose to do certain things out of His great love for us.

What ever the case, I dropped the issue, realizing that I used my words wrong and because I had a hard time getting my head around it, especially in light of the book of Hebrews. But then I heard a priest say something very similar in his homily - that He (Christ) understands our sufferings because He came in the flesh and it’s been bothering me ever since.

But now that I’m thinking of it (and of course all my thoughts on this stand to be corrected) it’s not a matter of whether God had to know or experience, it’s a matter of us having to know or experience. He became one of us, to show us the way to God, to die and suffer for our sakes. I’m not sure if a lot people, even Israelites knew that, or know it today. But because He came in the flesh - we now know and understand that we have a perfect High Priest and Savior who is Christ the Lord. He has always been qualified, but we had to understand that He is qualified. In this way we now know for certain that He understands our sufferings, because He’s experienced them Himself - their is no room for doubt.

As the Church always says, the Son of God became Man, so that a man can become a son of God!

Peace

P.S. You’re right, this would be a great topic to discuss with a theologian, as it involves the nature of God.
 
“Jesus had to qualify Himself to be the kind of High Priest that God wanted us to have.”

The above quote is an example from the article of what I was trying to say in the post above. If we think in human terms, it would seem that Jesus, having to quality Himself, may or may not make the grade. But, of course, we know that Jesus is God, Perfection in every way. But as it says further into the article, Jesus did not have to become perfect or qualify Himself in moral integrity or sinlessness because He was already perfect.
So maybe He didn’t have to, based upon His own virtue, the fact that He is God. But maybe He did because not everyone in the world at that time knew that He is who He is, let alone understood God’s nature (theology) or what He intended to do (economy). So even though we technically can’t qualify God in human terms like “sympathy,” let alone limit Him to the confines of time and space, He allows us to because He has revealed Himself to us in the incarnation and has allowed the Church to describe in human language what has been revealed. In the incarnation, He limited Himself to our time, space, and circumstances, even our human emotions.

Not everyone understood that Jesus was their loving God, their perfect intercessor, or that He was qualified as such until He came in the flesh. So He didn’t have to qualify Himself for any of these, because from eternity he was already qualified, but He did because no one understood until He did. :hmmm:

Really this issue comes down to the theology of the incarnation. I realize I might have some weaknesses or lack of understanding in this area. If there are any good Catholic books on that subject, I should be reading them!

For instance: We believe Jesus was both 100% Deity, 100% Human. Now when He was a child, he learned and gained favor in the eyes of God and men. Did He know everything at that point as if He were God, or was He “emptied” (Phi 2:7) of all this knowledge so He could be the human that He was? Wow, I want to know how to answer these questions!

I’ll try in my time to do some searching on these issues, if you come up with anything, it’s welcome.

Peace
 
Great answer! I can tell you the background of this. When I was a missionary (protestant) in China, I worked with a lot of Muslims who would often want to know why God had to come in the flesh and suffer for us. My simple answer was because He loves us and that He became our Paschal lamb, meriting for us salvation through His sacrifice on the cross. To die on our behalf, He had to take on flesh. But more than that I would explain the need for the incarnation, in that as a perfect Man, He was able to conquer our temptations, bear our sufferings, and fulfill the Law. I would also say that He can sympathize with our sufferings as He has gone through them Himself.

Now in that language there is sometimes a blur between “knowing” and “experiencing.” To truly know, is to truly experience. This became a problem for me, when answering this question to a Muslim, I used the word “jingguo” which is “went through” or “experienced” but then turned around and translated it to my American fundamentalist friend as “understand.” He didn’t like this, and assumed that I was a heretic. At the end we finally reconciled by me stating that yes I believed that God has always known everything, but that the Son, chose to know (experience) our sufferings by coming in flesh because of His great love. And anyways, it becomes one of those issues where God didn’t have to do anything, because He’s God (He knows all, has seen all, and can do all), but He chose to do certain things out of His great love for us.

What ever the case, I dropped the issue, realizing that I used my words wrong and because I had a hard time getting my head around it, especially in light of the book of Hebrews. But then I heard a priest say something very similar in his homily - that He (Christ) understands our sufferings because He came in the flesh and it’s been bothering me ever since.

But now that I’m thinking of it (and of course all my thoughts on this stand to be corrected) it’s not a matter of whether God had to know or experience, it’s a matter of us having to know or experience. He became one of us, to show us the way to God, to die and suffer for our sakes. I’m not sure if a lot people, even Israelites knew that, or know it today. But because He came in the flesh - we now know and understand that we have a perfect High Priest and Savior who is Christ the Lord. **He has always been qualified, but we had to understand that He is qualified. In this way we now know for certain that He understands our sufferings, because He’s experienced them Himself - their is no room for doubt. **As the Church always says, the Son of God became Man, so that a man can become a son of God!

Peace

P.S. You’re right, this would be a great topic to discuss with a theologian, as it involves the nature of God.
Excellent analysis. You seem to have a background in theology. I see you are a candidate (going through the RCIA program?) to enter the Catholic Church. Congratulations! Your missionary work seems to have brought out a greater understanding of what God has accomplished for us through Jesus Christ, Our Lord. I bolded the area that you wrote because it explains well my own thinking on the subject. Yes, we had to know that He understands/experiences our sufferings. He bears our cross along with His.

It is my understanding (which is open to correction) that God could have saved us any way He chose to, but He chose the ignominious death on the cross for His Son. As a parent, I know that I’d rather die in place of my sons or daughters, so the point of God’s sacrifice of His Son is that He is the loving Parent who sacrificed His Only-Begotten Son, for us, who became His children as adopted sons and daughters. Choosing to give His very life for us demonstrates His unconditional love. We are to follow in His footsteps and love unconditionally (which isn’t easy).

One poster brought the idea to a recent thread that God experiences great loss when someone refuses His love even at the end of life. Although He doesn’t physically feel the torture of Hell, He experiences the horror of eternal punishment for His lost children. Of course, as humans, we don’t really understand the eternity or infinity of God’s love. He cannot hate even those who hate Him.

Many blessings,
4
 
So maybe He didn’t have to, based upon His own virtue, the fact that He is God. But maybe He did because not everyone in the world at that time knew that He is who He is, let alone understood God’s nature (theology) or what He intended to do (economy). **So even though we technically can’t qualify God in human terms like “sympathy,” let alone limit Him to the confines of time and space, He allows us to because He has revealed Himself to us in the incarnation and has allowed the Church to describe in human language what has been revealed. In the incarnation, He limited Himself to our time, space, and circumstances, even our human emotions. **
You’re right. Although the Israelites were expecting a Messiah, they were thinking in terms of earthly kingship, not the “Suffering Servant.” I agree with the statement in bold. He allows His Church to speak to the world in human language that all may know Him as the one, true God who has revealed Himself to us, as you said, in the incarnation.
Not everyone understood that Jesus was their loving God, their perfect intercessor, or that He was qualified as such until He came in the flesh. So He didn’t have to qualify Himself for any of these, because from eternity he was already qualified, but He did because no one understood until He did. :hmmm:
Really this issue comes down to the theology of the incarnation. I realize I might have some weaknesses or lack of understanding in this area. If there are any good Catholic books on that subject, I should be reading them!
For instance: We believe Jesus was both 100% Deity, 100% Human. Now when He was a child, he learned and gained favor in the eyes of God and men. Did He know everything at that point as if He were God, or was He “emptied” (Phi 2:7) of all this knowledge so He could be the human that He was? Wow, I want to know how to answer these questions!
I’ll try in my time to do some searching on these issues, if you come up with anything, it’s welcome.
The bolded statement is the fundamental, foundational element of what Christianity is because it brings together heaven and earth, the spiritual soul with the material body. Jesus, in His divinity took on the form of a human being, a helpless baby (embryo) at that. He chooses the weak to confound the strong.

Your thinking about whether or not Our Lord knew everything in His human form as He would in His divine form is something I’ve wondered about many times. Various theologians have differing answers. The traditionalist would say yes, He knew all things at all times. The modernist would say no, He “emptied Himself” completely and was human in all things like us. I wonder if both ideas can be put together since Jesus was both human and divine. As for any books on the subject, all I can recall are some of the lives of the saints and mystics who had visions of Jesus as a child knowing His destiny. This has merit since at age 12, He was deliberately “lost” in the Temple to let his parents know that He knew His Father. In so many biblical verses, He lets us know that He and the Father are one, especially in the Last Supper discourses. And, of course, He used His divine powers to heal. He knew people’s minds. In one gospel He tells a future apostle (Philip?) that He saw Him under a fig tree. This shocked the disciple/apostle. There are a lot of examples in Scripture that prove Jesus knew He was God. How about even in the womb when He acknowledged John the Baptist in his mother’s womb? 👍
 
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4Horsemen:
Your thinking about whether or not Our Lord knew everything in His human form as He would in His divine form is something I’ve wondered about many times. Various theologians have differing answers. The traditionalist would say yes, He knew all things at all times. The modernist would say no, He “emptied Himself” completely and was human in all things like us. I wonder if both ideas can be put together since Jesus was both human and divine. As for any books on the subject, all I can recall are some of the lives of the saints and mystics who had visions of Jesus as a child knowing His destiny. This has merit since at age 12, He was deliberately “lost” in the Temple to let his parents know that He knew His Father. In so many biblical verses, He lets us know that He and the Father are one, especially in the Last Supper discourses. And, of course, He used His divine powers to heal. He knew people’s minds. In one gospel He tells a future apostle (Philip?) that He saw Him under a fig tree. This shocked the disciple/apostle. There are a lot of examples in Scripture that prove Jesus knew He was God. How about even in the womb when He acknowledged John the Baptist in his mother’s womb? 👍

I talked with my wife about this. She states the same as you above and also adds He came not to gain anything for Himself except us. In other words He didn’t need to know anything, we needed to know Him.

Oh, and my mistake, in the OP it should have been “omniscient” instead of “omnipresent.” This is not only an issue related to the incarnation, but omniscience. That’s why I bring up the last subject. Was Jesus when He walked the earth omniscient? Before you posted, I was thinking of those same scriptures. But one could add (and mind, this is not my conclusive view) that in all those instances, his knowledge may not have been based upon His own omniscience, but of that of the Father, in whom He followed and obeyed intimately. And actually at one point it may seem that He admits to not having omniscience when He states, “But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only” (Mt. 24:36 American Standard Version). Now the KJV and DRB leave the Son out, “But of that day and hour no one knoweth: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone” (Mt. 24:36 DRB). 🤷

:hmmm:

I think I’m going to try the “Ask an Apologist” forum for this one. “Was Jesus, incarnate, omniscient?”

Thanks for the honest discussion,
Peace
 
=tsering;7556262]My question is:
Did Jesus, the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, being omnipresent understand in every way our sufferings, our pain, our sorrows, our temptations, our burdens from time eternal, or did he finally understand these things through His experience when He took on our flesh in the incarnation? What I mean is a difference between empathy and sympathy - could the Son sympathize with us before He came in the flesh? Did He come not only to die for us, but to also understand (for sympathy) what we are going through so He could be our perfect advocate?
NOT ONLY DID [DOES] HE KNOW IT; HE COUNTS ON IT!

SUFFERING

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

*Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” ***

ANYONE / EVERYONE WHO IS OF THE MIND THAT THEY CAN PARTICIPATE IN GOD’S GLORY WITHOUT ALSO PARTICIPATING IN HIS SUFFERING; IS INCORRECTLY INFORMED AND TAUGHT.

God Bless,
Pat
 
I talked with my wife about this. She states the same as you above and also adds He came not to gain anything for Himself except us. In other words He didn’t need to know anything, we needed to know Him.

And actually at one point it may seem that He admits to not having omniscience when He states, “But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only” (Mt. 24:36 American Standard Version). Now the KJV and DRB leave the Son out, “But of that day and hour no one knoweth: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone” (Mt. 24:36 DRB). 🤷

:hmmm:

I think I’m going to try the “Ask an Apologist” forum for this one. “Was Jesus, incarnate, omniscient?”

Thanks for the honest discussion,
Peace
Jesus made us. He knew what He would feel. He could blink His eyes and feel the pain if He wanted to. Jesus came to show us how much we are loved. He did truly suffer as man but was still God all the time.

The stuff about the time for the end of the world – they had no reason to know so His human nature answered the question. If Jesus didn’t know He wouldn’t be God. He is one with the Father. His human nature didn’t know. There was no need to reveal it from His God Head.

He truly suffered as a man but remained God.

This is a mystery of the Catholic faith. When someone has the answer to explain 3 persons in 1 please let me know.

Just remember God knows all things. We get the answer when we meet Him.
 
Jesus made us. He knew what He would feel. He could blink His eyes and feel the pain if He wanted to. Jesus came to show us how much we are loved. He did truly suffer as man but was still God all the time.

The stuff about the time for the end of the world – they had no reason to know so His human nature answered the question. If Jesus didn’t know He wouldn’t be God. He is one with the Father. His human nature didn’t know. There was no need to reveal it from His God Head.

He truly suffered as a man but remained God.

**This is a mystery of the Catholic faith. When someone has the answer to explain 3 persons in 1 please let me know.**Just remember God knows all things. We get the answer when we meet Him.
I agree that Jesus, in His Divinity knew all things but chose to not to reveal the human question about the restoration of Israel before He ascended into heaven.

As for the mystery of the Trinity, it wouldn’t be a mystery, of course, if we could explain it. Yet, we can use analogies to help our understanding. Certainly, one of the simplest is St. Patrick’s explanation of the Trinity using a shamrock with its three leaves on one stem.
Another I heard is the three states of water as a liquid, solid and gas. I’m sure the physicists and mathematicians can delve further with examples using the particles of an atom, electromagnetism, set theory . . . and anything on the micro and macro levels.

From my understanding of revealed truth and Catholic thinking, the Trinity is often explained as the infinite, eternal love of the Father begetting the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the love of Father and Son for one another so that love, itself, becomes personified, for, indeed, each one is an individual Person in the Godhead.
 
I talked with my wife about this. She states the same as you above and also adds He came not to gain anything for Himself except us. In other words He didn’t need to know anything, we needed to know Him.

Oh, and my mistake, in the OP it should have been “omniscient” instead of “omnipresent.” This is not only an issue related to the incarnation, but omniscience. That’s why I bring up the last subject. Was Jesus when He walked the earth omniscient? Before you posted, I was thinking of those same scriptures. But one could add (and mind, this is not my conclusive view) that in all those instances, his knowledge may not have been based upon His own omniscience, but of that of the Father, in whom He followed and obeyed intimately. And actually at one point it may seem that He admits to not having omniscience when He states, “But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only” (Mt. 24:36 American Standard Version). Now the KJV and DRB leave the Son out, “But of that day and hour no one knoweth: no, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone” (Mt. 24:36 DRB). 🤷

:hmmm:

I think I’m going to try the “Ask an Apologist” forum for this one. “Was Jesus, incarnate, omniscient?”

Thanks for the honest discussion,
Peace
Omniscience is the right term since it means all-knowing. Like someone said above, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one,” so I believe Jesus was omniscient even in the flesh. As for His statement, “But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only,” His words are for us to know that He was fully human and divine at the same time. (Don’t ask me how this works pragmatically. Hopefully, the “Ask an Apologist” thread will pick up on this). :confused:

Interesting thoughts and discussion.

Many blessings!
 
Another I heard is the three states of water as a liquid, solid and gas.
I used to use this example all the time with my Muslim friends, until someone rebuked me for being a Modalist - which in fact I wasn’t.

Though this example is good, it must be followed up with an explanation. For example: H2O is the basic element (nature) - ice is still H2O, water is still H2O, vapor is still H2O. So God is God, the same nature - the Father is still God, the Son is still God, the Spirit is still God. Same nature, distinct persons, (and this must be added) who exist at the same time.

:crossrc:

Peace
 
ANYONE / EVERYONE WHO IS OF THE MIND THAT THEY CAN PARTICIPATE IN GOD’S GLORY WITHOUT ALSO PARTICIPATING IN HIS SUFFERING; IS INCORRECTLY INFORMED AND TAUGHT.
:amen:

God bless you too,
Peace
 
The stuff about the time for the end of the world – they had no reason to know so His human nature answered the question. If Jesus didn’t know He wouldn’t be God. He is one with the Father. His human nature didn’t know. There was no need to reveal it from His God Head.
I think you’re starting to hit the nail on the head with these thoughts. Like I said before, this is an incarnation issue, going back to the debates regarding Jesus’ two natures. Granted, I too believe that in the Trinitarian dogma, we must believe that the Son shares the same nature as the Father - which includes omniscience.

I just want to get down and dirty about the seeming contradictions from verses like Phi 2:7, Mt 24:36.

I think we should start by exploring the term Hypostatic Union. 👍

Peace
 
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