Did Jesus write the Bible or build a church?

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Ani_Ibi said:
A little more context around Constantine’s contribution to Christianity being preached from the rooftops. From The Church Before Nicaea in This Rock:
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By my count Constantine refers to “Christians” 12 times in the Edict of Milan. He doesn’t claim to be founding Christianity, nor this new Catholic Church some claim Constantine to have founded.

So if the Edict of Milan isn’t the founding document of this hypothesized Catholic Church which materialized sometime in the 4th century, completely (seemingly) replaced the “catholic” church which preceded it, where might we find the true founding document?
 
Teflon93 said:
…So if the Edict of Milan isn’t the founding document of this hypothesized Catholic Church which materialized sometime in the 4th century, completely (seemingly) replaced the “catholic” church which preceded it, where might we find the true founding document?
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:newidea: :doh2: In the invisible church? :o 🙂
 
avflf said:
(2Ti 4:19-21) Salute **Prisca **and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
**Erastus **abode at Corinth: but **Trophimus **have I left at Miletum sick.
Do thy diligence to come before winter. **Eubulus **greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.

9 people are mentioned at the end of this Epistle. Were their names put in an ecclesiatic hat, when the list of Popes was being compiled, or was it a case of ene, mene, myne, mo, and lucky Linus was drawn first ? (under the guidance of the Spirit(s) of course)
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It is funny that you write “Spirit(s),” because Heaven is not a place of disembodies spirits, but of people. It is not the “spirit of Linus” it is Linus.
 
Man said:
It is funny that you write “Spirit(s),” because Heaven is not a place of disembodies spirits, but of people. It is not the “spirit of Linus” it is Linus.
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Heh, heh, heh. You didn’t catch it, then.
 
Jesus, the Son of God, the Second Person of the indivisible Holy Trinity inspired both the Sacred Scriptures and built His Church, an “extension of the Incarnation”.

He never commanded His Apostles or disciples to write a book. His last command was for them to preach the Gospel to all nations. Obviously, He knew that the Apostles would never reach the ends of the earth in their lifetime.

That’s why he established a Teaching Body (i.e., the Magisterium) – made up of the 11 Apostles with St. Peter as their head. He IS the “Rock” upon which His Church was built.

Their writings (Sacred Scripture), which are infallible*, were transmitted to the Church through
Tradition, are with us today and subsist in the "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

The Church is “ONE”
–Jesus Christ did not establish a franchise;

it is “HOLY”
–because it is the Body of Christ, with the Holy Spirit subsiding in it and directing it towards all Truth;

it is “Apostolic”
–because the Bishops that laid their hands upon the Successor of St. Peter, Pope Benedict XVI, also had hands laid on them to make them Bishops by other Bishops etc.,…going back to the time of Christ (see Acts 1 – when the 11 Apostles chose another man (Matthias) to replace the Office of Judas by laying their hands upon him);

and, finally, the Church is “Catholic”,

–which means universal in Greek. Which “church” has these four characteristics but the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ.
  • It’s interesting how Protestants accept the Bible as being infallible when it was written by men; but, reject the fact that the Pope can make infallible statements.
If St. Peter’s writings are infallible, why are not those of his Successor when he speaks from the Chair of St. Peter, not the Barber’s chair, but the Chair of St. Peter?
 
I got into a discussion with a priest about this some years ago … and I was SHOCKED!!

Jesus established the Church. " … and upon this Rock I will build my church…"]

And the Church wrote the Bible. Or at least the New Testament part of it.]

AND, the Bible, AS WE KNOW IT, didn’t come into existence until around the year 400AD !!!

I was SHOCKED when I learned this stuff.

Saint Jerome … and Saint Augustine … Saint Ambrose …

The first 300 years of the Church with the persecutions.

I had NO IDEA.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I had been “aware” of the catacombs and how the early Christians had to hide from the Romans.

But it wasn’t until I started reading extensively about these early holy men and the work they did and the political and military conditions they lived (and died) in.

Augustine, for example, started as a very confused and amoral young man (until he was in his 30’s), but escalated his understanding and became a Bishop. The circumstances of his death are a bit murky. But evidently an invasion of North Africa where he lived resulted in his death.

[What makes things more confusing is that the Catholic Church constantly uses the words and/or refers to “Sacred Scripture” … rather than the word “Bible”.]

One of my books about the Bible omits these famous saints and their work. Instead, the Protestant Bible study just mentions Jerome but starts with bold face type with the biographies of Wycliffe, Luther, Tyndale, Knox and Coverdale, King James and Ken Taylor.
 
avflf—

Why are you so angry? Is the thought of the Catholic Church being the church Jesus left us, so scary to you? Ask yourself why?Maybe the idea of walking away from what you’ve always known? Think of it as walking toward Jesus. Just keep saying yes to Jesus.

The thought that Jesus left us a Church, just like He promised, and that it still exists, like He promised, does that frighten you?

Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust in Him?

We build walls to protect us from being harmed.But those same walls keep people from helping us.

As Catholics

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Those are the four marks of His church.

The Catechism (Latin for “Echo” for it echos the bible) of the Catholic Church explains it better then I ever could.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm

And for the whole Catechism
usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

The Nicene Creed was a result of the
First Council of Nicaea in 325ad.
newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
 
avflf said:
Ah! yes, quite true … though the Catholic Church of the 1st century differed considerably from the Roman Church of the 4th century and, anyway, the Protestants all feel they are following in the footsteps of Aquila and Priscilla by “expounding the way of God more perfectly”
Here’s the relevant passage:
(Act 18:24) And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(Act 18:25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

(Act 18:26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
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Just to add my :twocents: into this thread –

Coming from a Lutheran background, any Lutheran might tell you, “Well, that’s [the 4th century] when the church became corrupt…”. Personally, I don’t know how they became corrupt (we heard this on a video, but the video never explained). I assume it’s because the church became legal in the Roman Empire, and the emporer was Catholic. Protestants might also point to popes - or bishops and cardinals - crowning emperors (i.e., kings of France), thus they see the Pope as a “kingmaker” to “have influence over the people”. Lutherans will also say that Martin Luther wanted to restore the church to the way it was before the 4th century.

This was the general message I got being raised Lutheran.

And just to add, the most ironic thing I find about being Lutheran is that, while Lutherans say that you don’t need the Pope (or any priests) to forgive you of your sins, right there in the Lutheran Hymnal is what the pastor says - “By the power and authority vested in me… I hereby declare you forgiveness of all your sins”. 😃
 
fellowChristian said:
avflf—

Why are you so angry? Is the thought of the Catholic Church being the church Jesus left us, so scary to you? Ask yourself why?Maybe the idea of walking away from what you’ve always known? Think of it as walking toward Jesus. Just keep saying yes to Jesus.

The thought that Jesus left us a Church, just like He promised, and that it still exists, like He promised, does that frighten you?

Do you believe in Jesus? Do you trust in Him?

We build walls to protect us from being harmed.But those same walls keep people from helping us.

As Catholics

We believe …

…Those are the four marks of His church.

The Catechism (Latin for “Echo” for it echos the bible) of the Catholic Church explains it better then I ever could.
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art9p3.htm
And for the whole Catechism
usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm
The Nicene Creed was a result of the
First Council of Nicaea in 325ad.
newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
Click to expand...
fellowChristian,

What gave you the impression I’m angry at your Church or the interpretation you have of the Bible? Is this a Forum to discuss ideas, beliefs (contrary and divergent as they may be) or is it a place where members are expected to pat themselves and others in the back in their perceived unity of belief in Christianity? If the latter, then I have no business being here and I apologise for the intrusion.
I’m not angry at anyone - Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Indu, Muslim, JWs, and any other faith you may care to add - as I have no affinity with any of the world religions for I look upon them as just a human effort to answer the unanswerable.
 
Jennifer_G said:
Just to add my :twocents: into this thread –

Coming from a Lutheran background, any Lutheran might tell you, “Well, that’s [the 4th century] when the church became corrupt…”. Personally, I don’t know how they became corrupt (we heard this on a video, but the video never explained). I assume it’s because the church became legal in the Roman Empire, and the emporer was Catholic. Protestants might also point to popes - or bishops and cardinals - crowning emperors (i.e., kings of France), thus they see the Pope as a “kingmaker” to “have influence over the people”. Lutherans will also say that Martin Luther wanted to restore the church to the way it was before the 4th century.

This was the general message I got being raised Lutheran.

And just to add, the most ironic thing I find about being Lutheran is that, while Lutherans say that you don’t need the Pope (or any priests) to forgive you of your sins, right there in the Lutheran Hymnal is what the pastor says - “By the power and authority vested in me… I hereby declare you forgiveness of all your sins”. 😃
Click to expand...
You should read the Didache (~80). It gives important information into the early Church. The Church does appear to be the same. It gained considerable power when people realized it contained the Truth. From a Catholic standpoint, Luther did just that, rubbing shoulders with princes just like the Popes of old. And he returned the Church to the past, having Catholics killed and parishes raised.

(Humble submission to the Truth)

newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
 
Hi
Sorry, my views are however different.

JesusYeshuaIssa **did not leave the Word of God **or anything in writing revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of stone tablets as was in the case of Moses, or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself as a biography when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.

Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church.

We do respect the NTGospels which have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility for a non-Catholic except that we may treat it as a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each event for finding truth on merit.

Incidentally, Jesus also could not construct or build any church in his own life time of say some 30 years.

Before the event of crucifixion, from which I believe that he was delivered in near dead position, he definitely could not construct any church, as we find in the gospels that he used to go to synagogues for worship, as he himself was a Jew and he had no intention to ascribe to any new name.

From the event of **Crucifixion to the time he bid farewell **from Galilee with his Mother Mary to some unknown destination, there was not much period to construct a church and moreover due to the persecution by Jews it was impossible to do it.

So, I think he did not leave any church behind also.

Moreover, this word ‘church’ does not seem to be of Hebrew or Aramaic origin which Jesus, Mary and his disciples spoke, so it is a remote chance that he ever built a church.

Thanks
 
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