Did Jesus write the Bible or build a church?

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Teflon93 said:
Of course I agree with you—I’ve just tried numerous times to get someone who denies that the early church was the Catholic Church to provide me with the date the Catholic Church was founded.
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Of equal importance is the name of the Church that Christ actually founded, so that we can all convert to it.
Surely if the Catholic Church was NOT the one founded by Christ in 33 AD, someone could point to where this brand new church came into being, right?
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You’d think. :rolleyes:

Most Protestants give a date somewhere in the 300s AD - if they realize that this actually predates the settling of the canon of Scripture, they move the date up, but then they cannot explain why the Church that produced the Bible was using a Latin Mass and all seven Sacraments in much the same way that we still do today.

Either way, the more important thing that they do not (and I think can not) explain is why “the real Christians” took more than a thousand years to begin the process of “correcting Rome’s errors.”
 
(Acts was written around 62-100ad by Luke a Syrian of Antioch, a Syrian by race, a physician by profession. He had become a **disciple of the apostles and later followed Paul **until his [Paul’s] martyrdom. Having served the Lord continuously, unmarried and without children, filled with the Holy Spirit he died at the age of 84 years. )

Acts 9:2

and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there **who belonged to **the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.

It was called "The Way"

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. **The disciples were called Christians **first at Antioch.

Each were called "Christians"

(Ignatius of Antioch was the third bishop hand picked by Peter himself and a student of John the Apostle. Ignatius is an “Early Church Father”.)

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans Ch.8
(written around 107-110 ad.)

Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

We were named “The Universal Church” = "The Catholic Church"
 
Teflon93 said:
No, Christ made the Catholic Church the arbiter of Scripture.

Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Tom, ****, and Harry made themselves arbiters of Scripture.
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The followed “the Unholy Trinity”

Me, Myself, and I
 
Teflon93 said:
He told Peter he would found the Church upon him, and did so at Pentecost.

What date do you give for the founding of the Catholic Church?
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Yes, He said that in Mat. 16:18 and 5 verses later he called Peter the Devil.

The Catholic Church proper had its beginnings when the Christian faith became the accepted religion of the Roman Empire. Prior to that there were foci of Christianity scattered throughout the Roman World with each local church doing very much what they liked and teaching from whatever books were available to each of them.
 
avflf said:
Yes, He said that in Mat. 16:18 and 5 verses later he called Peter the Devil.

The Catholic Church proper had its beginnings when the Christian faith became the accepted religion of the Roman Empire. Prior to that there were foci of Christianity scattered throughout the Roman World with each local church doing very much what they liked and teaching from whatever books were available to each of them.
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So you place its founding to Constantine’s conversion?

Do you place the date after the Battle of Milvian Bridge, when Constantine was baptized on his deathbed, or someplace in-between?

And do you consider Constantine to be the founder of the Catholic Church from whichever point you answered above?
 
avflf said:
Yes, He said that in Mat. 16:18 and 5 verses later he called Peter the Devil.

The Catholic Church proper had its beginnings when the Christian faith became the accepted religion of the Roman Empire. Prior to that there were foci of Christianity scattered throughout the Roman World with each local church doing very much what they liked and teaching from whatever books were available to each of them.
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And your evidence of this is? What happened to these alleged local Church’s? Why doiwe have so many Chuch Fathers writing about the Catholic Church prior to it becoming the accepted religion of the Roman Empire.

For instance:

Tertullian

"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification.* Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring].** In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics *20 A.D. 200]).

The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops,* by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church** which is found everywhere*"

Irenaeus (*Against Heresies *3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
 
estesbob said:
And your evidence of this is? What happened to these alleged local Church’s? Why doiwe have so many Chuch Fathers writing about the Catholic Church prior to it becoming the accepted religion of the Roman Empire.

For instance:

Tertullian

"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification.* Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring].*** In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 A.D. 200]).

The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops,** by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church** which is found everywhere"

Irenaeus (*Against Heresies *3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).
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Have a look at this site
askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0590GentileChurch.php#top
 
Teflon93 said:
…Surely if the Catholic Church was NOT the one founded by Christ in 33 AD, someone could point to where this brand new church came into being, right?
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Here is a timeline for the Early Catholic Church and another timeline for the development of the Bible at the bottom. This is a start. Then folks can look up any of those events along the way for more details.

A Timeline of Catholic Church history

Now the Reformers try various twists and turns to prove to themselves that the Catholic Church is illegitimate and has no authority. But they always get caught by history.

So one theory is that the Early Church was during the lifetime of the Apostles only and then the Roman Church came along and promulgated false teachings.

Thing is: Jesus said that he would never abandon His Church. So if the Roman Church was not a continuation of the Church Jesus established, then where was the Church Jesus established for the 1500 years until Martin Luther decided to establish yet another church?

Where was that missing church? What were its teachings? Who were its pastors? Oh! I forgot: it was invisible. Which reminds me: if the common folks and historians could not find the invisible missing church, then all those poor souls who martyred themselves took the rap for those who were hiding in the ‘true church’ of Jesus.

Okaaaaaaay. Where is the evidence of all this?
 
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avflf:
Yes, He said that in Mat. 16:18 and 5 verses later he called Peter the Devil.
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Lost me. Explain please.
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teflon93:
What date do you give for the founding of the Catholic Church?
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The Catholic Church proper had its beginnings when the Christian faith became the accepted religion of the Roman Empire.
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Is there a difference between the Catholic Church ‘proper’ and the Catholic Church spoken of during the time of the Apostles?
Prior to that there were foci of Christianity scattered throughout the Roman World with each local church doing very much what they liked and teaching from whatever books were available to each of them.
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And this was the unity for which Jesus prayed? Lost me again.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
avflf said:
Ah! yes, quite true … though the Catholic Church of the 1st century differed considerably from the Roman Church of the 4th century and, anyway, the Protestants all feel they are following in the footsteps of Aquila and Priscilla by “expounding the way of God more perfectly”
Here’s the relevant passage:
(Act 18:24) And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(Act 18:25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

(Act 18:26) And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
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Aquila and Priscilla cared for St. Paul. They knew the Churches customs… therefore even like Apollos knew St. Paul. They both stem from the same history. Not one made up.

If you read ancient documents you will see that the church changed very little.

It is insolent to continuously claim that there was a major change somewhere without proof.
 
avflf said:
Yes, He said that in Mat. 16:18 and 5 verses later he called Peter the Devil.

The Catholic Church proper had its beginnings when the Christian faith became the accepted religion of the Roman Empire. Prior to that there were foci of Christianity scattered throughout the Roman World with each local church doing very much what they liked and teaching from whatever books were available to each of them.
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The Apostles had founded communities all over that where nearly identical to what they are today. These are the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

You can see various churches accept different pieces of Cannon until a council. A council is when all the bishop get together and agree on stuff. Constantine, while he may have had some effect on the council would not have been able to sway it to the extent you purpose, and if you think he did, you may want to look up some proof… I have heard this accusation many times, but people forget that changes often come out of councils, as that is why they have councils…
 
avflf said:
Ani Ibi;2481020:
Here is a timeline for the Early Catholic Church and another timeline for the development of the Bible at the bottom. This is a start. Then folks can look up any of those events along the way for more details.

A Timeline of Catholic Church history
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Just curious. Why is Pope Victor the only one that is not considered a Saint (St.)

There are more Popes who have not been cannonized than those that were.
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Man said:
The Apostles had founded communities all over that where nearly identical to what they are today. These are the Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

You can see various churches accept different pieces of Cannon until a council. A council is when all the bishop get together and agree on stuff. Constantine, while he may have had some effect on the council would not have been able to sway it to the extent you purpose, and if you think he did, you may want to look up some proof… I have heard this accusation many times, but people forget that changes often come out of councils, as that is why they have councils…
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Exactly, and it was not till the unification of the various churches that the word/status Catholic, Gk. *katholikos *meaning Universal, came to be.
 
Ani_Ibi said:
Please answer the questions.
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Probably after he saw the *In hoc signe vinci *(Sp). Constantine was baptized on his death bed, probably as “fire insurance” but his conversion to Christianity, from what I read, was more politically motivated than a religious experience. Don’t ask me where I read it I can’t remember.
 
avflf said:
Probably after he saw the *In hoc signe vinci *(Sp). Constantine was baptized on his death bed, probably as “fire insurance” but his conversion to Christianity, from what I read, was more politically motivated than a religious experience. Don’t ask me where I read it I can’t remember.
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But we have shown you that there was a Universal Chruch recognized by Early Christians in the late 1st Centiry-well over 300 years befoe Constantine came along.
 
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