Did Jews in the old testament pray to Angels like we do today

[Fatima-Crusader]

Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!”

Since jews prayed to angles, did they ask for them for help like we Catholics do today?

 

[halogirl]

@meltzerboy2 might be able to help here ?

 

[meltzerboy2]

No, I don’t believe they did, and that quotation from Psalms certainly praises angels, but it does not indicate that Jews prayed to them as mediators. Jews have always been very strict that the ONLY One Who should be prayed to is G-d Himself.

 

[twf]

I know modern Jews don’t consider Tobit to be Scripture per se, but it still shows that ancient Jews DID believe angels interceded for God’s people. St Rafael makes that clear in the narrative. Catholics take it a step farther by explicitly asking the angels to intercede for us.

 

[Pattylt]

I’m trying to remember my Angelology section from about 50 years ago so don’t hold me to this…
It was an issue during certain times that some Jews were going beyond the “rules” of worship and trying to get Angels to intercede for them. Every discussion of this condemned it. So, yes there were Jews that prayed in varying degrees to Angels but it was not an accepted practice.

Angels are messengers of God. Nothing more and have done nothing of themselves to deserve worship or prayer. Only God that sent them is. Hope that helps!

Didn’t early Christianity also have some problems with Angel worship? I seem to remember something about taking things too far in Christianity, too.

 

[Vico]

I’m trying to remember my Angelology section from about 50 years ago so don’t hold me to this…
It was an issue during certain times that some Jews were going beyond the “rules” of worship and trying to get Angels to intercede for them. Every discussion of this condemned it. So, yes there were Jews that prayed in varying degrees to Angels but it was not an accepted practice.

Angels are messengers of God. Nothing more and have done nothing of themselves to deserve worship or prayer. Only God that sent them is. Hope that helps!

Didn’t early Christianity also have some problems with Angel worship? I seem to remember something about taking things too far in Christianity, too.

Worship has two forms: adoration of God, and veneration of angels and saints. All angels and saints have proved their love of God through free will.

Modern Catholic Dictionary, Worship

Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position.

In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoration (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)

 

[meltzerboy2]

Jews are notorious for breaking the rules. When my Orthodox Jewish grandmother would light the Shabbos candles on Friday night, she would pray to G-d but, on occasion, would also pray to her deceased parents to intercede with G-d. This is not permitted but her heart was in the right place so I am sure G-d forgave her.

 

[Pattylt]

Yes, I understand the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholicism. Jews do not believe Angels have free will. They only do Gods bidding thus for Jews, either worship or veneration is forbidden.

Just as some Catholics can take Mary veneration too far, I think sometime in the early Church, some Christians tried to take Angel veneration too far as well and the Church had to step in. I cannot remember what the time frame was…sorry.

 

[Vico]

Yes, I understand the distinction between worship and veneration in Catholicism. Jews do not believe Angels have free will. They only do Gods bidding thus for Jews, either worship or veneration is forbidden.

Just as some Catholics can take Mary veneration too far, I think sometime in the early Church, some Christians tried to take Angel veneration too far as well and the Church had to step in. I cannot remember what the time frame was…sorry.

That is interesting. Odd though that there is a difference, since angels and saints from the time of the creation of mankind, only do God’s will in Catholic teaching also.

 

[Pattylt]

I know but have trouble understanding how an Angel can have free will yet only do Gods bidding (excluding the fallen Angels). I’ve listened as it was explained that they are given an initial choice to follow God or not (free will) and then they are fixed in that roll. To me, that says they no longer have free will even if they initially did.

Am I missing an important piece of information?

Jews also do not have Satan as a fallen Angel. In Job, he’s a messenger or advocate for God, fulfilling a role God assigned for him. He is not the devil nor do we have a devil, fall or original sin. As someone else stated once, Judaism is not Christianity minus Jesus and Christianity is not Judaism plus Jesus. They really are distinct faiths even though they sprung from the same source.

 

[Isearch]

I know but have trouble understanding how an Angel can have free will yet only do Gods bidding (excluding the fallen Angels). I’ve listened as it was explained that they are given an initial choice to follow God or not (free will) and then they are fixed in that roll. To me, that says they no longer have free will even if they initially did.

Free will doesn’t have to include evil choices. After the angels’ testing, those who didn’t fall would still retain their free will, but only in fulfilling God’s commands. Angels have options on how to obey those commands.

 

[AlbMagno]

The classical explanation is that:
A. Angels live in Eternity and
B. Angels, as pure Spirits without “flesh”/corrupted (not glorified) body bias, are extremely inteligent.

With this two preambles, what I understand is that Angels are so inteligent, atemporal and unbiased, that “when” (outside of time) they made the decision to rebel or follow God, they made an final and eternal choice, and thus do not repent. It’s like, they have thought about the question so well that they have given an definitive answer, and in their eternal plane of existence.

 

[Elf01]

Didn’t early Christianity also have some problems with Angel worship? I seem to remember something about taking things too far in Christianity, too.

In Revelation I think John was about to worship one and the angel stopped him.

He is not the devil nor do we have a devil, fall or original sin. As someone else stated once, Judaism is not Christianity minus Jesus and Christianity is not Judaism plus Jesus. They really are distinct faiths even though they sprung from the same source.

Out of interest how does a Jew read Genesis 3.

 

[Fatima-Crusader]

Would it even be possible to pray to angels in Heaven in the OT, since Heaven was closed shut?

 

[Fatima-Crusader]

Well not to debate, but in that pslam you do pray in a very light sense by saying “O you His angels”

 

[Pattylt]

Out of interest how does a Jew read Genesis 3.

Usually, from right to left in Hebrew!…sorry, being silly there…

I’ve actually heard several interpretations. One is that the snake represents Egypt (they worshiped snakes as gods) and that the story is about the temptation to return to Egyptian worships which Eve, then Adam fell for. Most of Genesis is interpreted as ancient myth and is the story of God teaching his people to reject all other forms of worship. The creation story itself is often read as each day being a representative of other gods…light is sun worshipers, plants and animals were animistic worshipers, even man was hero worshipping.

One thing they all tend to agree on is that God forgave Adam and Eve. He punished them by kicking them out of Eden but they were forgiven and there was no lasting stain of sin upon them. I don’t recall if anyone ever interpreted the stories literally and certainly not as original sin as Christians do.

Of course, the interpretations are more complex than I gave but the big point is the forgiveness of God and His teaching them to worship Him alone. I haven’t looked into it in ages and have forgotten much but it is interesting how differently Jews interpret Genesis from Christians. If I get a chance, I’ll see if I have my old notes on the various interpretations over the centuries.

 

[Vico]

Would it even be possible to pray to angels in Heaven in the OT, since Heaven was closed shut?

Judaic scholars have a system of seven heavens.

Note that there are guardian angels in Judiasm.

Genesis 48

15 Then he blessed them with these words:
“May the God in whose presence
my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
The God who has been my shepherd
from my birth to this day,
16 The angel who has delivered me from all harm,
bless these boys
That in them my name be recalled,
and the names of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac,
And they may become teeming multitudes
upon the earth!”

 

[Vico]

Why pray to angels? Doesn’t the Bible say we should only pray to God?

Go Satan! For it is written you shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only

Matthew 4:10

Adoration is reserved for God. We are asked to pray for one another – supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving. 1 Timothy 2:1, Ephesians 6:18-19

Honor is due: Matt. 10:41
Dream of how Joseph would be honored in future by his family: Genesis 37:7–9
Jacob relates how Judah’s brothers will praise him: Genesis 49:2-27
Give Aaron dignity and honor: Ex. 28:2
Matt. 10:41 He who receives a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward, and he who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

Joshua prostrates himself before the angel in Joshua 5.
Lot bows before two angels In Genesis 19.
Abraham bows before three angels In Genesis 18.

 

[Vico]

…To me, that says they no longer have free will even if they initially did.

Am I missing an important piece of information?
…

Once in possession of the Beatific Vision, the angel can never be tempted to any evil whatsoever – perfectly satisfied.

Lateran Council IV (1215) teaches dogmatically that the demons are created good in nature:

For the devil and other demons were created by God good in nature, but they themselves through themselves have become wicked.

In Hebrew shed שֵׁד means demon or devil.

Deuteronomy 32:17

They sacrificed to demons, to “no-gods,”
to gods they had never known,
Newcomers from afar,
before whom your ancestors had never trembled.

 

[GiftofMercy]

This verse is not saying that the Jewish people are praying to Angels.

this verse is saying quite clearly
20 Bless the LORD, O you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his word,
obeying the voice of his word!

And the Biblical Hebrew is
Bless (the Divine Name) you his Angels
who excel in strength
who do His word
heeding the voice of His word