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Spanner
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Sorry! I forgot to say which chapter of Mark It is at the end of chapter 11.
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Peter_Dawson
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Oh my Heavens!!! No! That chapter deals with whether or not baptisms BY John were of divine origin or from men!OK. Maybe this will put to bed whether or not St. John was baptized. The Church teaching is that John was “born” immaculate while Mary was “conceived” immaculate. At the end of St. Mark’s gospel is something on St. John’s baptism. The question is whether John was baptized from heaven or from men, which Jesus asked of the chief priests, scribes and elders. As for St. John the Baptist’s rank in heaven, it is very high if you count being addressed in the confiteor at the beginning of Mass. Of course, if you attend the new mess, you would not know this.
Pray for the end of modernism and the return to sanctity of Holy Mother Church!
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grannymh
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Thank you. You are correct in that my objective is to present the teaching of the Catholic Church. You and readers are free to agree with the posted teaching or not as you wish.
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NotWorthy
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I would think that Luke 7:28 tells us that John wasn’t baptized, for baptism is where were are born into the kingdom.
“… I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
“… I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
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Peter_Dawson
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I agree. The folks here who say that John was alsdo born immaculate are simply wrong. It is based on a mistranslation of Luke.
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Peter_Dawson
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You missed the point, granny. In my opinion, this business of John the Baptist being made immaculate in the womb is NOT taught by the Church.
I.e., you go after me, functionally, for not ascribing to Catholic teaching, but here you are not ascribing to Catholic teaching.
Is that what you are saying “correct” to?
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grannymh
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Who said “John the Baptist being made immaculate in the womb” ?
And what have my postings which begin “the Catholic teaching is…” or " the Catholic Church teaches …" actually referred to???
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Spanner
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This excerpt is taken from a talk/response given by a gentleman named Plinio Correa de Olivera, author and commentator now deceased. If you would like to read more of this particular commentary on St. John, go to www.traditioninaction.org.
There is a solid tradition in the Church that says St. John Baptist was purified of original sin shortly after he was conceived, while still in the womb of St. Elizabeth. So, this episode of the Gospel referring to the child in the womb hearing Our Lady’s voice, understanding her words and loving her is completely creditable.
There is a solid tradition in the Church that says St. John Baptist was purified of original sin shortly after he was conceived, while still in the womb of St. Elizabeth. So, this episode of the Gospel referring to the child in the womb hearing Our Lady’s voice, understanding her words and loving her is completely creditable.
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Granny_D
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Hi Spanner, I agree that John the Baptist was born “immaculate” but he still did not need Baptism, because he was under the Law… but the fact that he is lesser than the least of the Kingdom, will be corrected in the end, when those who have much, wont have more, and those who have little wont have less…
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NotWorthy
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Are we equating “filled with the Holy Spirit even within the womb” with “born immaculate”? I’m not sure the two are equal, although I’ll admit I’m not at all sure of this. There’s nothing in all of this (the Church’s teaching) that tells me that John the Baptist still did not suffer from Original Sin, as far as I know.
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Granny_D
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The Navarre Bible gives in the commentary that John was indeed born “immaculate” however, I don’t think that means he never committed sins on his own after age of accountability… So he is not “impeccable” while Our Blessed Mother was conceived without sin…and never sinned during her life… she was IMPECCABLE.
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NotWorthy
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Thanks Granny! I have the Navarre commentary on the Gospels and I’ll check it out.
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Peter_Dawson
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To answer the first question, up above, in this thread, folks here say that John was “baptized” in the womb, made “immaculate” in the womb.
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Peter_Dawson
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To answer your second question, Post #5, “Carnivores in the Garden of Eden.” This is a reasonable facsimile…
"**This sounds misleading. It must be a personal opinion. It seems to ignore that Jesus Christ is present under the sacred signs of bread and wine. It certainly falls far short than the true meaning of the Catholic Eucharist
“In the Catholic Eucharist, we receive the Divine Risen Body of Jesus, true God and true man. Jesus Christ, Who loves us with all His being, is sacramentally, substantially present. **”
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grannymh
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Thank you Peter.
The first paragraph refers to Post 3. And the second paragraph is about the Holy Eucharist. However, I just spotted that Divine should be Divinely. Note; this personal statement comes directly from me.
I do like to include true God and true man because it gives the complete picture and not just one aspect. Also, the word substantially is important for understanding just how Jesus Christ is present sacramentally. This time I added that Jesus Christ loves us with all His being. Jesus is so real and so loving and so merciful in the Eucharist.
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StrawberryJam
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I’m still not understanding why it would matter if John the Baptist was baptised or not. If he needed to be, Don’t you all think Jesus himself would have taken him aside for a moment and told him to be baptised by either himself, or one of his disciples? I mean, that would make Jesus pretty bad if he did not even care about John’s salvation.
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NotWorthy
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Any Baptism of John would have been pre-mature. Jesus hadn’t left and sent the Holy Spirit yet (aka “The Pentecost”), so the Sacrament of Baptism wasn’t instituted yet.
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holy_moly
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Exactly strawberry! The underlying issue isn’t whether JB was baptised or not (tho an excellent, thought provoking question), but begs the question of whether baptism was necessary for his salvation; couldn’t tell you, but would bet MY salvation that John the Baptist went straight to Heaven!
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Granny_D
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Hi Holy Moly… (like that name) I think the importance of knowing whether John the Baptist was Baptized by Jesus or the Apostles is really about what we understand about the Sacrament of Baptism. We have the Baptism of John, which was of “Repentance” and was a preparation for the Sacrament of Baptism. Jesus was Baptized by John, even though Jesus did not need to “repent” Jesus gave us an example in that we must repent of our sins and since Jesus came to die for our sins, He went through the steps that would earn us salvation. Jesus was obedient even unto Death. Jesus did everything for the Father, “Your Will not mine, be done” all of this was an example to us while He accomplished our Redemption. In establishing the New Covenant, He established His Church, His Mystical Body which would continue His example and His Presence through His Sacraments. Baptism is the entrance into the Life of God. Baptism by Water and The Holy Spirit, which can be accomplished either by the traditional method, or by Blood, or by Desire.
John the Baptist could not have received Sacramental Baptism, but he was justified under the Law and Heaven would have been opened to him when Jesus died and descended to the Dead to preach the Good News and open the Gates of Heaven to them. The Blessed Mother was Conceived without sin, lived and died without sin, and received The Sacraments from the Church. Our Blessed Mother would have received Holy Communion, was present at Pentecost and her death was attended by The Apostles.
It would seem that this would show the difference between the Old and New Covenants
is The Church and the Sacraments, including Baptism.
John the Baptist could not have received Sacramental Baptism, but he was justified under the Law and Heaven would have been opened to him when Jesus died and descended to the Dead to preach the Good News and open the Gates of Heaven to them. The Blessed Mother was Conceived without sin, lived and died without sin, and received The Sacraments from the Church. Our Blessed Mother would have received Holy Communion, was present at Pentecost and her death was attended by The Apostles.
It would seem that this would show the difference between the Old and New Covenants
is The Church and the Sacraments, including Baptism.
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grannymh
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I agree with you. You just reminded me of John 21: 25. “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”
Personally, I think that anyone who hangs around sinners, like Jesus did, knows what needs to be done and does it.
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