Did John the Baptist really know who he was baptizing?

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Last week’s Gospel reading (Dec 12, 2010; Matthew 11:2-11) John the Baptist (JoB) sent some of his disciples to Jesus and ask “Are you the one who is to come or should we look for another?”

Some time before that, John baptized Jesus in the river (John 1:29-33).-Partial quote: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Did JoB not recognize his cousin? Did he not remember, later while in prison, that the Spirit of God descended on him after the baptism? Why was John questioning Jesus’ authority/destiny when he himself (JoB) saw the Spirit descend?

🤷🤷🤷🤷🤷
 
I don’t think the passage has to be taken to mean that John was unsure or doubtful. There’s nothing in the text itself that says he was and, as you mentioned, all the information we have about John in the rest of the Gospels-- from the time he was pre-announced to his parents, to when he leapt in the womb upon meeting the unborn Lord, to his pointing out Jesus as “the Lamb of God,” to his hearing the voice from heaven when he baptized Jesus-- indicates that John knew exactly who Jesus was. And this is the view of most of the Fathers of the Church on this, as well as the predominant view of saints and biblical commentators until fairly recently (an attempt, I suspect, to make John more touchy-feely and vulnerable). From the 1859 Haydock Commentary:
**Mt XI, Ver. 3. ***Art thou he that is to come? *(Greek, who cometh?) i.e. the Messias. John the Baptist had already, on several occasions, declared that Jesus was the Messias. (John i). He could not then doubt of it himself, but sent his disciples to take away their doubt. (Witham) — St. John the Baptist sent his disciples not to satisfy his own doubts, but for the sake of his disciples, who, blinded by the love they bore their Master, and by some emulation, would not acknowledge Christ to be the Messias. (St. Chrysostom in Baradius) — This expression of St. John is much taken notice of, as conveying with it a very particular question. “Tell me, says St. John, now that I am departing out of this world, whether thou art coming to redeem the patriarchs and holy fathers; or wilt thou send another?” (St. Thomas Aquinas) — And St. Chrysostom also explains it thus, Art thou he that art to come to limbo? but the Baptist omitting this last word, sufficiently indicated to our Saviour what was the purport of this question. St. Jerome and St. Gregory say, that by his death, he was going to preach to the holy fathers that Christ, the Messias, was come. John does not here propose this question as ignorant of the real case, but in the same manner as Christ asked where Lazarus was laid. So John sends his disciples to Jesus, that seeing the signs and miracles he performed, they might believe in him. As long, therefore, as John remained with his disciples, he constantly exhorted them to follow Jesus; but now that he is going to leave them, he is more earnest for their belief in him. (St. Thomas Aquinas)
So then, the reason he instructed his disciples as he did, then, was so that THEY would know that Jesus was the Messiah. John knew his time was coming to an end and that his disciples needed to make the transition from following him to only following Jesus. By their seeing for themselves and coming back to report what they found to him, he could know that they knew.
 
We have two passages that instruct us to conclude that John the Baptist KNEW who Jesus was without Jesus having told him anything:
  1. Luke 1:41-44: “41And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.”
  2. John 4:13- 17: “13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 14But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him. 16And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17*And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
In each instance, no words were spoken to John the Baptist to cause him to react as he did - joy at just hearing Elizabeth greeting Mary, and John the Baptist telling Jesus that JESUS should be baptizing John the Baptist, and not vice versa.

I think these two passages are very indicative of John knowing who Jesus really was.
 
You should also remember that one of the standard rabbinical teaching and discussion/argument techniques was to ask questions, already knowing the answer but wishing to elicit a good answer from the other person. (When Jesus asked His disciples, “Who do people say that I am? And who do you say that I am?”, He was fishing for answers that He already knew quite well.)

With his questions, John was nudging Jesus to make a public declaration before witnesses, as well as giving his disciples to him.

Typically for a rabbi talking to a rabbi in this sort of game, Jesus’ reply is not a straightforward declaration per se, but it’s a pretty easy riddle to read if you knew Scripture at all. (It was almost like cheating, if you made it too easy. If you gave people an answer to figure out themselves, they would be more likely to remember and believe the answer.)

(When you think about it, both John the Baptist and Mama Mary were kinda poking Jesus to get going on the Messiah stuff. “So yeah, maybe it’s not time time, but maybe you could do a little something…”)
 
John 1:31

Could it be that Jesus was not what the Jews were expecting in the messiah?
 
Well, He was and He wasn’t. Thus the Bible quote answer was useful. 🙂

But given the drought of prophets until John, they would have been perfectly happy if Jesus had turned out to be just an Elisha to John the Baptist’s Elijah, or even some kind of very minor prophet running around.
 
Last week’s Gospel reading (Dec 12, 2010; Matthew 11:2-11) John the Baptist (JoB) sent some of his disciples to Jesus and ask “Are you the one who is to come or should we look for another?”

Some time before that, John baptized Jesus in the river (John 1:29-33).-Partial quote: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Did JoB not recognize his cousin? Did he not remember, later while in prison, that the Spirit of God descended on him after the baptism? Why was John questioning Jesus’ authority/destiny when he himself (JoB) saw the Spirit descend?

🤷🤷🤷🤷🤷
Because even with those epiphanies, John did not know what to expect, nor could he understand what Jesus was doing.

The Jews were expecting a diviniely anointed Messiah, NOT a divine Messiah.

And the Messiah was supposed to be announcing liberty to prisoners, and John was rotting in Herod’s dungeon. So not surprising that he might have wondered what was going on, and whether he had gotten something wrong, somewhere.

We do an injustice to John (and, for that matter, to Mary) when we imagine that they were gifted with some level of omniscience, or even of prescience.
 
We do an injustice to John (and, for that matter, to Mary) when we imagine that they were gifted with some level of omniscience, or even of prescience.
Oh, I don’t think it is necessarily assigning John the Baptist omniscience or prescience to suppose he had a high confidence level in the identification of Jesus as the Messiah. And it wouldn’t be necessary for John to know the exact nature of Jesus’ messiahship to correctly and confidently identify him as such (shoot, even we who, with the gift of hindsight, know Jesus is Messiah can’t fully grasp everything that Jesus truly is). John was a prophet, after all, and with all of the other evidences he was given in his life (many noted in the above posts), the argument could definitely be made he had some confidence that Jesus was the Messiah.
 
Because even with those epiphanies, John did not know what to expect, nor could he understand what Jesus was doing.

The Jews were expecting a diviniely anointed Messiah, NOT a divine Messiah.

And the Messiah was supposed to be announcing liberty to prisoners, and John was rotting in Herod’s dungeon. So not surprising that he might have wondered what was going on, and whether he had gotten something wrong, somewhere.

We do an injustice to John (and, for that matter, to Mary) when we imagine that they were gifted with some level of omniscience, or even of prescience.
I agree with your point about John, but the Jews not expecting a divine messiah is ironically not necessarily true. Different sects had different expectations about the Messiah, and strands of 2nd Temple Jewish belief do in fact make reference to a messiah that some Jewish scholars have called “semi” and “quasi” divine:

“In later Judaism it (the term messiah) is associated with a semi-divine figure whose future reign will usher in everlasting justice, security, and peace.”

“Supernaturalism comes to enrich the portrait of the king-messiah, as the political necessities of the Davidic dynasty demand theological validation.” Lenowitz, Jewish Messiahs.

The Midrash to Isaiah 52 says the “King Messiah” will be loftier than Abraham, Moses, and the Angels, and the later Rabbinic commentary on this Midrash put this exalted context in perspective as being very nearly Divine.

A Talmudic commentary on the “thrones” in the plural found in Daniel 7:9-10 had Rabbi Akiva suggesting an interpretation that one throne is for the Ancient of Days and the other is for His messiah.

In Isaiah 9:6, four names are understood by the Targums to be referring to the messiah. An interesting tidbit is that the Greek Septuagint translated one of this Davidic King’s names as the “angel of great counsel” while the Hebrew itself actually called him “mighty God,” a kind of “demi-god” according to George Buchanan Gray.

The “Similitudes of Enoch” describes a heavenly figure, and 4 Ezra features a transcendant messiah. One scholar stated that the reason for the increasingly supernatural aspects of the Messiah was most likely due to their disappointments in the successive failure of the earthly variety.

As such, I think that your idea of John having a wrong idea of the messiah is still entirely possible, but it would most likely be because his strain of Judaic thought had a different idea of the messiah, as opposed to your assertion that the Jews as a monolithic entity had no such concept.

As such, this personally cleared things up a bit better for me. It always struck me as odd that John questioned Jesus’ identity in this way particularly in view of the high Christology he demonstrated in the Gospel of John. The idea that he was making a statement for his followers never rang true to me; even a cursory reading of the passage seems to scream out the very real conflict that John was having, and it seems a disservice to the poignancy of the passage to suggest otherwise. Rather, it seems instead to be a rather touching, brutally honest call for John, and by extension all Jews, to reevaluate what their own traditions and views on what the Messiah would be, and how he would fulfill their expectations. It’s never easy to look at your own views and come to the realization that you were wrong, and this appears to be the conflict John is having, and even more disturbingly, the gospel doesn’t ever show what his reaction was to Jesus’ answer.

In summary, I don’t think John is honestly questioning whether Jesus’ identity is the Messiah. I think he knows Jesus is. Rather, it would seem to me that John is having so much trouble letting go of his own strand of Judaism’s beliefs of what the Messiah should be, that he’s questioning whether Jesus is truly the one in sort of a last-ditch effort to maintain his presuppositions, with a rather painful expectation of the answer. John predicted that the Messiah would baptize with blood and fire. Maybe John’s idea of what this meant was not Jesus’ idea of what it meant.
 
John the Baptist knew who Jesus was when he they were both in the womb as others have mentioned. Elizabeth, his mother referred to Mary as the “mother of my Lord.” He preached of one greater than him to come, see also Luke 3:16.
 
John the Baptist knew who Jesus was when he they were both in the womb as others have mentioned. Elizabeth, his mother referred to Mary as the “mother of my Lord.” He preached of one greater than him to come, see also Luke 3:16.
It is true that the infant John “leapt” in the Presence of the Infant Jesus - but that is no reason to conclude that the two young men knew one another. Neither does his preaching mean that he knew “who” the “one” was before the day of Jesus’ baptism. In fact, John himself said he didn’t know Who Jesus was when he first saw Him (John 1:31)
 
Yes, he knew whom he was baptizing; he was Elijah…
That’s a bit of a weak argument…He fulfilled the role of Elijah, but we only know that because Jesus interpreted him as such, we do not know to what degree John himself had this self-realization.

Jesus’ reference to John as Elijah refers to Jewish apocalyptic (and OT) prophecy that Elijah would come again, but this was in conjunction with the Tribulation and before the Resurrection of the Dead in particular, not the Messiah specifically. Because this understanding of John as Elijah is contingent on the Resurrection of the Dead, there is not necessarily any reason to believe that John completely understood the nature of Christ’s messiahship, even if he did understand his own role as Elijah.
 
=DrSharkey;7378445]Last week’s Gospel reading (Dec 12, 2010; Matthew 11:2-11) John the Baptist (JoB) sent some of his disciples to Jesus and ask “Are you the one who is to come or should we look for another?”
Some time before that, John baptized Jesus in the river (John 1:29-33).-Partial quote: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
Did JoB not recognize his cousin? Did he not remember, later while in prison, that the Spirit of God descended on him after the baptism? Why was John questioning Jesus’ authority/destiny when he himself (JoB) saw the Spirit descend?
***John did this not for HIMSELF [keep in mind he was in prision and knew he likely would soon face death]… He did this for the BENEFIT of his followers and there RIGHT Understanding of “the One whose sandals I {John] am unworthy to unfasten.”

John prudently was preparing his deciples for 1. His death and 2. THE FACT that ESUS is LORD, not me John.

And of course John recogonized Jesus, Jonh porclaimed TWICE:“BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD!” He even told Jesus that it is he John that should be Baptized by Jesus not the other way around…

Friend you would do well to “read the rest of the story.” 👍

God Bless,
Pat

God Bless,
Pat

YES! John knew that he was baptising; EVEN MORE importantly John understood that a FULLER, more Grace-filled Baptism of WATER and THE HOLY SPIRIT would follow and be necessary as a condition of salvation {John 3:5].***
 
They were related, it is very likely they knew each other. I can just imagine the Blessed Mother telling St. Elizabeth about the time Jesus was lost in the temple and what He told His parents. It’s no stretch of the imagination for me to think Elizabeth repeated the story to her husband and son at some time or another or even a young John the Baptist overhearing the conversation.

ETA: Also maybe they hadn’t seen each other in a long time and maybe that why John didn’t recognize him. It happens in families all the time.
 
well “yes” he did say to his cuzson that jesus should be baptising him – with the H.S. and with fire
 
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