Did John the Baptist Receive Sanctifying Grace?

[Blue_Horizon]

Some traditions say JB was born without Original Sin (he was cleansed in the womb during the Visitation).
If so then, strangely, he may be one of the few persons cleansed of original sin who did not receive sanctifying grace at the same time - let alone before he died (he died before Christ after all).

Any thoughts?
(Lets not get hung up on the Original Sin contention. That is more of an aside just to make the discussion more salient). I realise its a somewhat speculative, theological question but it may help resolve an unrelated discussion elsewhere .

For a lead up that may be helpful the following thread may assist.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=168792
especially posts 40 and 51-60.

 

[runningdude]

All salvation is offered through Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary, even Mary’s conception without original sin. Christ’s divinity does not exist in time, so He can do that!

 

[twf]

St. John was the last and greatest of the Prophets. He prepared the way for the Lord and bridged the Old and New Testaments. Tradition tells us that He sits on Our Lord’s left as Our Lady sits on His right. His birthday is celebrated as a solemn feast of the Church and has been since ancient times. Do we not believe as we worship? The feast of a saint celebrates their entrace into heaven - their sanctification - and is thus typically their day of death. In St. John’s case, as in the case of Our Lady, we celebrate his earthly birth. This speaks volumes. He was a saint even as an infant in the womb. Scripture tells us that even in the womb St. John was full of the Holy Spirit. Can one in original sin, one who does not possess sanctifying grace, be full of the Holy Spirit? The cross of Christ was anticipated in Our Lady’s immaculation conception. I would say that it was also anticipated in St. John’s pre-natal sanctification.

 

[Ghosty]

Removal of Original Sin without Sanctification is a contradiction in terms. Original Sin is the absence of Sanctifying Grace, and to loss Original Sin means simply to receive Sanctifying Grace.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Tradition tells us that He sits on Our Lord’s left .

TWF I haven’t heard that one before. Isn’t it John son of Zebedee (the Evangelist)? He with his brother James asked for those seats (not that they were Jesus’s to grant). In the last supper paintings it is usually John Evangelist who is at Jesus’s left. Perhaps I am mistaken .

Scripture tells us that even in the womb St. John was full of the Holy Spirit. .

Have a look into the link I reffered readers to above. Just as “salvation” in the Bible often merely refers to temporal salvation (i.e. from wars, poverty etc - esp in the OT) so too “Holy Spirit” gets over-rated a lot in the same way (referring to transient “actual graces” and inspirations not the highly theological Trinitarian indwelling “sanctifying grace” we mostly speak of since apostolic times). For example Balaam (Numbers 24:2 )

Also, the least in the Kingdom (sanctifying grace?) is greater than he. There are various interpreations of this verse aslo of course. So while you may be right - your example, alone, may not be the silver-bullet .

My understanding is that the OT “saints” before Christ remained in Abrahams Bosom (Hades) until freed to heaven by the Resurrected Christ. If JB already possessed sanctifying grace then he surely would not have needed to so await after his beheading? The Fourth Gospel appears to state that those who possess the indwelling Paraclete (i.e. what we now call sanctifying grace) are efffectively already in heaven even on earth so for them there is no waiting in Abraham’s bosom upon death.

This seems a difficult issue which is why I tend to think it is inappropriate to speak of sanctifying grace re those who died before Christ. I may be quite wrong but I have done considerable research and have not yet found anything to convince me otherwise .

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Removal of Original Sin without Sanctification is a contradiction in terms. Original Sin is the absence of Sanctifying Grace, and to loss Original Sin means simply to receive Sanctifying Grace.

Peace and God bless!

Ghosty are you able to provide unequivocal sources for this view.
I haven’t seen anything quite so clear on this yet and “contradiction in terms” may be a bridge too far.
It obviously holds true if we speak of Baptism by water and the Spirit.
I wonder of Baptism by water only (e.g. John’s baptism)?

(BTW I believe you are mistaken to think that Original sin is simply the absence of Sanctifying Grace. It looks to be a lot more complicated than that).

 

[Ghosty]

Ghosty are you able to provide unequivocal sources for this view.
I haven’t seen anything quite so clear on this yet and “contradiction in terms” may be a bridge too far.
It obviously holds true if we speak of Baptism by water and the Spirit.
I wonder of Baptism by water only (e.g. John’s baptism)?

(BTW I believe you are mistaken to think that Original sin is simply the absence of Sanctifying Grace. It looks to be a lot more complicated than that).

Check out the Catechism:

405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

And from the old Catholic Encyclopedia:

Original sin is the privation of sanctifying grace in consequence of the sin of Adam. This solution, which is that of St. Thomas, goes back to St. Anselm and even to the traditions of the early Church, as we see by the declaration of the Second Council of Orange (A.D. 529): one man has transmitted to the whole human race not only the death of the body, which is the punishment of sin, but even sin itself, which is the death of the soul [Denz., n. 175 (145)]. As death is the privation of the principle of life, the death of the soul is the privation of sanctifying grace which according to all theologians is the principle of supernatural life. Therefore, if original sin is “the death of the soul”, it is the privation of sanctifying grace.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Blue_Horizon]

"Original Sin is the absence of Sanctifying Grace…
…to lose Original Sin means simply to receive Sanctifying Grace."

Check out the Catechism:


And from the old Catholic Encyclopedia:

Thanks Ghosty.
While your overall practical conclusion may well be right (that the erasing of original sin always involves infusion of sanctifying grace) it is still a big step to say it is logically necessary by reason of term definition and thus “Original Sin is the absence of Sanctifying Grace.”

That further step would seem to require an exact 1:1 mapping between the two and that the restoration of grace should reverse all the effects of the other. This in fact does not seem to happen at baptism. This suggests that one encompasses more than the other, or they both only partially share common ground (like partially intersecting circles).

While I have high regard for the OCE I have noticed over the years that it can be less than reliable when getting into detail. It is not really an “authoritative” document of the official Church.

Re CCC405:
Now I know where you are coming from. Sanctifying grace is not actually mentioned here but I think you are right that “original holiness” refers to SG. However “original justice” is adding something more. It is my understanding that the restoration of SG does not restore original justice completely - hence CC405 states “…the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man.”

What is Original Justice? Others more erudite may wish to assist but I believe it involves at least the preternatural gifts.

Therefore your overall conclusion may be correct (that erasure of original sin always involves infusion of SG) - but this does not really seem necessitated by definition of terms.
But maybe I am completely on the wrong tack here and someone can come up with a clearer source to prove this either way .

 

[runningdude]

It is only by sanctifying grace, which comes from Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary, that original sin is removed to make entry into heaven possible.

All the righteous Jewish people before Christ’s time were held in “Abraham’s Bosom”, presumably a level of purgatory, to await the death of Jesus (incidentally the most righteous Jewish man to ever live) to arrive and lead them through the gates of heaven.

Thus, for Saint John to be cleansed of original sin before his birth by necessity required an infusion of sanctifying grace!

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Looks like we are getting a bit tangled in Original Sin which isn’t really what I was most asking about.

Lets make it more general.
Did the OT Saints really receive sanctifying grace or only generous actual graces from God?

My understanding was that the so Sanctifying Paraclete issued from Jesus (and the Father) after the Resurrection and salvic actions of Christ not before.

 

[runningdude]

Looks like we are getting a bit tangled in Original Sin which isn’t really what I was most asking about.

Lets make it more general.
Did the OT Saints really receive sanctifying grace or only generous actual graces from God?

My understanding was that the so Sanctifying Paraclete issued from Jesus (and the Father) after the Resurrection and salvic actions of Christ not before.

I partially addressed this before, but all the righteous before Christ’s sacrifice were held in “Abraham’s Bosom”. Without sanctifying grace, entrance into heaven is impossible. Following Christ’s sacrifice, all the Old Testament prophets are now in heaven, and thus properly termed saints!

Some exceptions may have occurred; Elijah for instance may have been received into heaven earlier. However, he would have done so only through the sanctifying grace of Calvary working outside of time.

 

[Sirach2]

FWIW, the CCC teaches this about sanctifying grace:

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called *charisms *after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

I understand, therefore, that the special gifts/charisms possessed by those ancient prophets et al, bestowed upon them by the Holy Spirit, seems to be accompanied by sanctifying grace. God may bestow this through the Spirit outside of the sacraments, which are the primary sources of sanctifying grace in our dispensation.

Actual graces are not sanctifying graces, and are given by God as helps even when one does not yet have the Holy Spirit. They are distinguished as lesser than sanctifying grace.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I partially addressed this before, but all the righteous before Christ’s sacrifice were held in “Abraham’s Bosom”. Without sanctifying grace, entrance into heaven is impossible. Following Christ’s sacrifice, all the Old Testament prophets are now in heaven, and thus properly termed saints!

Some exceptions may have occurred; Elijah for instance may have been received into heaven earlier. However, he would have done so only through the sanctifying grace of Calvary working outside of time.

Thanks RD.
Are you saying that before Christ, except in the possible case of Elijah, the OT just did not receive sanctifying grace until what is termed “the harrowing of hell?”

Are you able to quote a source for this view?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

FWIW, the CCC teaches this about sanctifying grace:

2024
I understand, therefore, that the special gifts/charisms possessed by those ancient prophets et al, bestowed upon them by the Holy Spirit, seems to be accompanied by sanctifying grace.

Sirach2 these special OT movements by the Spirit you mention appear adequately explained by actual grace alone so it is hard to understand why sanctifying grace needs to be predicated (principle of Occham’s razor). I have not yet come upon a reliable source that strongly goes in this direction.

 

[Sirach2]

Actual grace does not sanctify. It merely occasions a person to cooperate with God according to their conscience.

I’ll get back to you from a previous post I submitted on John the Baptist.

 

[Sirach2]

I believe the mystery of the Visitation was God’s way of fulfilling the prophecy His Archangel Gabriel made in separate revelations to Mary and Zachary. When Mary and Elizabeth came together in that awesome moment, the Holy Spirit blessed each of them with confirmation of the prophesies each had been given.

After Mary was greeted at her Annunciation, we read that she left in haste to assist Elizabeth. She would have been only a few days pregnant, and not having any evidence whatsoever that what Gabriel announced had already taken place. He only told her, “You shall conceive…” (future tense, no date given)

Same with Elizabeth whose husband was told that their child will be filled with the Holy Spirit in her womb. (future tense, no evidence)

We know that any time an Angel is sent to man bringing God’s prophecy, it is fulfilled. Elizabeth realized this when the babe in her womb leapt for joy, confirming the prophecy to Zachary months earlier. I believe there was a special anointed “knowing” that she burst forth with, “How have I deserved that the mother of My Lord has come to me?”

And if Mary had no knowledge of having already conceived, she truly realized the fulfillment in that moment when Elizabeth confirmed it to her, for God was already bestowing the Holy Spirit upon His Forerunner. Years later, St. John would proclaim from his understanding of this miraculous moment that “He who is to come after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

My point in all of this is that John received the Holy Spirit in Elizabeth’s womb at the presence of Jesus in Mary. An awesome, incredible moment for both women! Now if we believe the CCC that the Holy Spirit’s bestowal brings sanctifying grace, then it is far more than just an actual grace. He was cleansed of original sin. For us who are baptized sacramentally to remove original sin, we receive the Spirit AND sanctifying grace. God is not bound by the sacraments alone. This was a very special anointing and gift of grace that John received.

Please note this important difference. Mary was conceived without original sin, but John was not. He wasn’t cleansed until 6 months in the womb.

Jeremiah was also cleansed in the womb. St. Thomas Aquinas said this in his Summa:

Moreover, it is to be observed that it was granted, by way of privilege, to others, to be sanctified in the womb; for instance, to Jeremias to whom it was said (Jeremiah 1:5): “Before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee”; and again, to John the Baptist of whom it is written (Luke 1:15): “He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb.” It is therefore with reason that we believe the Blessed Virgin to have been sanctified before her birth from the womb.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Actual grace does not sanctify. It merely occasions a person to cooperate with God according to their conscience.

I’ll get back to you from a previous post I submitted on John the Baptist.

Thanks Sirach. yes what you say is perfectly true but this is not really the question.
The question is whether we can say the just of the OT were given sanctifying grace?
If they were it seems to raise a number of difficulties (such as why they were coralled in the Limbo of the Just (ie Abraham’s Bosom)). Is not to have the Trinitarian God indwelling within us to effectively already be in heaven on earth (but on earth the sanctified only see God as through a glass darkly until death) as John’s Gospel appears to say.

Also, how can the OT Just receive the indwelling presence of the Trinitarian Godhead before the Paraclete was issued by Jesus after the Resurrection?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Jeremiah was also cleansed in the womb. St. Thomas Aquinas said this in his Summa:

Moreover, it is to be observed that it was granted, by way of privilege, to others, to be sanctified in the womb; for instance, to Jeremias to whom it was said (Jeremiah 1:5): “Before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee”; and again, to John the Baptist of whom it is written (Luke 1:15): “He shall be filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb.” It is therefore with reason that we believe the Blessed Virgin to have been sanctified before her birth from the womb.

This is good support for the opinion not only that John the Baptist was cleansed from original sin in the womb but that he also received sanctifying grace . Do you know of any Magisterial (or Church Doctor) documents which would clinch this?

BTW can you reference Aquinas’s quote for me?

 

[Sirach2]

Thanks Sirach. yes what you say is perfectly true but this is not really the question.
The question is whether we can say the just of the OT were given sanctifying grace?
If they were it seems to raise a number of difficulties (such as why they were coralled in the Limbo of the Just (ie Abraham’s Bosom)).

Because Jesus’s Sacrifice had not yet opened heaven’s gates. Remember the scripture that speaks about the veil in the temple being torn when Jesus died? The way was opened for mankind at that moment, including those in the OT who were awaiting salvation.

Here is the source from St. Thomas Aquinas that you asked me for. Scroll to Article 1:
“I answer that…”

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Because Jesus’s Sacrifice had not yet opened heaven’s gates. Remember the scripture that speaks about the veil in the temple being torn when Jesus died? The way was opened for mankind at that moment, including those in the OT who were awaiting salvation.

Here is the source from St. Thomas Aquinas that you asked me for. Scroll to Article 1:
“I answer that…”

I think you may have rolled off the point here Sirach. I do not deny what you say.
The real question is whether the OT just were prevented from entering heaven due to Divine with-holding of sanctifying grace until the expiation of Christ or for some other reason.

Until now I have believed that participation in the life of the Trinity through the Divine Indwelling by SGrace guaranteed the Beatific Vision (i.e. heaven) upon death. If this view were correct then the OT Just could not have received sanctifying Grace before the death of Christ because we all know Heaven’s gates were closed until the Resurrection.

I accept this view is becoming less tenable - though it is hard to get a direct authoritative source that well explains why my old view is not normative.

I find it curious that Aquinas taught that Jewish Circumcision remits Original Sin (and probably still does if one is sincere).