Did Joseph ever intend to divorce Mary his wife?

[nguyencongbinh]

My post seemed hard to read because I simplified a big issue too large and too much Latin and Greek were presented. Let me brake it down in many steps:

Issue 1: When did the angel visit St. Joseph asking for his consent to form the Holy Home : to be The Lord’s foster father, and to be the Blessed Mother’s husband? Was it BEFORE or AFTER the celebrated the engagement ceremony?

 I tried to say that St. Matthew affirmed St. Joseph was visited before he was engaged (espoused) and had obeyed to get engaged – but then he became fearful and wished to  withdraw (not to divorce). My reasoning is based on the new set of punctuation marks to the same words of  the Clementine Vulgate from the original text of St. Matthew newly given us by Pope St. John Paul in the Nova Vulgata, The Official Text of The Church.

  From your replies as I know, your determination is based on Douay Rheims ( an English translation) of the Clementine Vulgata (a Latin translation) and I did never say you are wrong. It seemed you are angrily shouting at me because I did not follow *what was stated and what was not stated in the Douay Rheims. *

 It's tough to reply. You are speaking English while I am using Latin so it’s tough for us to understand each other and I don’t know how to communicate in a better way. Probably my post also confused many other people so I try to give some explanations:

Let’s try this way: Together we read 2 verses A and B from the Douay Rheims – then the Clementina Vulgata – then the Kata Matthaion (the Greek text of the Gospel of St. Matthew). I will present Nova Vulgata in the conclusion.

Verse A Mk 14:30
Douay Rheims Mk 14:30 **And Jesus saith to him: Amen I say to thee, to day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice. **
NAB: Then Jesus said to him, "Amen, I say to you, this very night before the cock crows twice you will deny me three times."

Can we all agree that Jesus said (in time#1)
Peter will deny him 3 times (in time#2)
before the cock crows (the first time –time#3- was impled) and also before it crows the 2nd time (time#4.)

This is from Clementine:
*et ait illi Iesus amen dico tibi quia tu hodie in nocte hac **priusquam **bis gallus vocem dederit ter me es negaturus *
This is from Kata Matthaion
Mark 14:30 kai legei autô ho Iêsous: amên legô soi hoti su sêmeron tautê tê nukti prin ê dis alektora phônêsai tris me aparnêsê.

Verse B Acts 7:2
Douay Rheims Acts 7:1-2 : THEN the high priest said: Are these things so? 2 Who said: Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, **when **he was in Mesopotamia, **before **he dwelt in Charan.
NAB: Then the high priest asked, “Is this so?” And he replied, "My brothers and fathers, listen. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham **while **he was in Mesopotamia, before he had settled in Haran,

God appeared to Abraham in time#1
when he lived in Mesopotamia (time#2)
and also before he moved and settled in Haran (time#3)

Clementine 2 qui ait viri fratres et patres audite Deus gloriae apparuit patri nostro Abraham cum esset in Mesopotamiam **priusquam **moraretur in Charram
Kata Matthaion Act 7:2 ho de ephê: Andres adelphoi kai pateres, akousate. Ho theos tês doxês ôphthê tô patri hêmôn Abraam onti en tê Mesopotamia **prin ê **katoikêsai auton en Charran

I am not aware whether you read Latin but at least I can ask you to pay attention to the idiom **cum priusquam **(cum, or quum meant before when; priusquam meant and also before – its synonym was antequam)

The Greek idiom was **prin ê ( **‘prin’ before time#2 ‘ê’ and also before time 3- the subsequent time) The inseparable idiom PRIN E and the unusual way to write it down was explained in the previous posts.
In my next post, please find that in Mt 1:18 St Matthew employed the same idiom PRIN E ( I call it eta 182) and it was translated by Clementine and Nova as CUM ANTEQUAM. They meant BEFORE - AND ALSO BEFORE.

 

[thistle]

My post seemed hard to read because I simplified a big issue too large and too much Latin and Greek were presented. Let me brake it down in many steps:

Issue 1: When did the angel visit St. Joseph asking for his consent to form the Holy Home : to be The Lord’s foster father, and to be the Blessed Mother’s husband? Was it BEFORE or AFTER the celebrated the engagement ceremony?

The Angel visited Joseph AFTER the Anunciation which was AFTER the betrothal.

 

[nguyencongbinh]

Having read the 2 aboves examples, we now read Mt1:18

Douay Rheims: 18 Now the generation of Christ was in this wise.
When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, **before **they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Ghost.

NAB: Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, 7 but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit.

18 Christi autem generatio sic erat cum esset desponsata mater eius Maria Ioseph antequam convenirent
inventa est in utero habens de Spiritu Sancto
Mat 1:18 Tou de Iêsou Christou hê genesis houtôs ên. mnêsteutheisês tês mêtros autou Marias tô Iôsêph, **prin
ê **sunelthein autous
heurethê en gastri echousa ek pneumatos hagiou.

Ginosko Latin Cognoscere: to simply know but Eurisko invenire to fully know, to fully find out with certainty. St Matthew wrote ‘was found’ in the passive voice but did not clearly state the subject so it could be understood in both way: (a) Mary was made aware with certainty (was found ) having Jesus in Her Womb by the power of the Holy Spirit – The Giver Of Life
(b) The Coming, The Birth was made aware to Joseph that having Jesus in Her Womb by the power of the Holy Spirit – The Giver Of Life

IRWIS- I Read What I See: The Greek verb Ginosko, the Latin verb Cognoscere meant to simply know but Eurisko/ invenire to fully know, to fully find out with certainty. By using the passive voice Matthew clearly stated that Joseph did not discover anything by himself but Christ’s coming – or Mary having Him in her womb- from YHWH The Giver Of Life was thoroughly and fully made known heurethe/ inventa (verb: eurisko/invenire) to Joseph prin/cum before the aras day ( the day he proposed the marriage- ê /antequam and also before the onah day( the day he received her as his wife into the Holy Home).

The subject of the verb INVENTA EST was not clearly stated by Matthew but implied: We can either understand (1) The Conception as Douay Rheims and NAB chose, or (2) The Birth, the Coming as stated at the beginning of the verse. The result is the same: The Conception or the Coming/Birth of The Lord Jesus came from The Holy Spirit/ The Giver Of Life
It’s however very clear that The Douay Rheims and the NAB did not change **Clementine and Kata Matthaion ‘s passive voice **into the active one so whether we may understand Joseph discovered (active voice) the child by himself? NO
The Douay Rheims and the NAB made it very clear that she-was-found-with-child-by-the-power-of- the-Holy-Spirit-when-his-mother-Mary-was-betrothed-to-Joseph. ( I read all words together- Even that the term WHEN was not 100% accurate since it should be BEFORE in plain English and the word WAS should be read as HAVING BEEN ENGAGED but was it clear that Douay Rheims indicated Joseph was fully made aware Who Jesus was, Who Mary was before he celebrated the aras or kiddushin (the engagement ceremony)? To me it’s a big YES from the Douay Rheims-and the NAB. Was it unfair to think, to say or to affirm Joseph discovered Jesus as a fatherless child ? Our imagination drove us too far.

The Douay Rheims and the NAB made it very clear that she-was-found-with-child-by-the-power-of- the-Holy-Spirit-when-his-mother-Mary-was-betrothed-to-Joseph-and-also-before-they-lived-together. Was it clear that Douay Rheims indicated Joseph was fully made aware Jesus came from YHWH and MARY is His Mother before he celebrated the onah or chuppah (the 2nd ceremony to take her into the Holy Home)? To me it’s a big YES from the Douay Rheims and the NAB- Is it unfair to think, to say or to affirm Joseph after discovering Jesus as a fatherless child was angry to Mary and decided to divorce her ? Again, our imagination should not be tolerated. We betrayed Kata Matthaion, Clementine, Douay Rheims and NAB by so thinking.
I have not cited the Nova. The grammar of CLEMENTINE VULGATE – from it the Douay Rheims and he NAB came from told me that Mary was bearing Jesus BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in time#1 and The Coming/ or The Origin Of Jesus/ or The Conception was fully made aware to St. Joseph before the time he was engaged (espoused) and also before the time he took her to live together in the Holy Family.
Next issues: Why was Joseph in great fear? Did he despise Mary? Did he suspect she was committing adultery? Did he think of dragging her to be stoned to death? Did he finally decide to divorce her? It’s a big NO to me.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I have no idea what this thread is trying to accomplish, but doesn’t Matthew 1:19 say …

… Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly …

… are you saying that the bible is wrong or that it doesn’t say what it means? Because the above verse is pretty clear, as is the rest of the passage.

 

[thistle]

Next issues: Why was Joseph in great fear? Did he despise Mary? Did he suspect she was committing adultery? Did he think of dragging her to be stoned to death? Did he finally decide to divorce her? It’s a big NO to me.

I already answered this in post #6.

 

[nguyencongbinh]

I am still in good faith trying to raise some new issues no one ever discussed.

Don’t ever assume I said THE BIBLE IS WRONG. The Bible is The Word Of The Lord and it contained the Truth. The way we read it could be wrong.It’s hard to read, so we must follow The Church’s stance and Her TEXT and its interpretations.

Don’t assume that ALL LATIN and ALL ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS are equally created and each word as translated constituted the true Bible and it should be THE BIBLE. Even the Clementine Vulgate that we cherished as of 1592 (from it came out many translations, The Douay Rheims included) has been REPLACED BY THE CHURCH in 1979. The Popes did never do anything that was unnecessary but were in a position to review, re-read and re-translate The Bible for us because It’s their duty to proclaim THE BIBLE…

Until now, the NAB is the Official Approved Text in the US but still The Church is striving for the better. Please see
bible-researcher.com/nab.html

In this post I just wanted to tell everyone that St Joseph, the great holy man was found qualified and chosen by YHWH The Holy Spirit to be The Lord’s Foster Father and The Blessed Mother’s husband assisting The Lord’s Salvation Plan.

The Plan of The Lord was perfect. St Joseph was requested to express his consent. He did. Midway, he fell into a great fear, he disqualified himself and wished to withdraw (dimittere did not only mean divorce)

YHWH then sent the angel, for the 2nd time to come to him in somnis (sommnis meant troubles in thinking - it did never only mean ‘a dream’. Raised up from his darkness ( hupnou did not only mean from a sleep) he immediately performed.
I did not say anything new - I did not say anything new- all facts were declared by St. Matthew in the first century andnow reaffirmed by Nova Vulgata, The Official Text Of The Church

I hope you have read chapter 2 of Matthew. How many times the angel must have visited Joseph to convince him to return to the homeland? I hope you have read the story of the prophet Jonah. I hope we all are aware of the agony of The Lord in the Gethsemane garden. It proved humans have fear and such fears troubled our thinking. To Jonah and Joseph, the fears drove them out because they were thinking of doing what was caused by human weakness but against God’s Plan. That might be logic but the facts already given us by Matthew.

There are many many other interesting issues I wish many to join with an open mind. I had read the ‘bible’ and understood the way many Catholics did. With the help of John Paul - especially his new set of punctuation marks in THE BIBLE - and with some humble knowledge in Greek and Latin - and after studying on the Jewish culture, my assumptions are now withdrawn.

It seemed to me if your mind is set because what was said and what was not said in the Douay Rheims to be the truth and only the truth, and that to read the Greek Text and the Latin text it was based on is irrelevant I then give up. Please continue to do what you have believed based on YOUR BIBLE.
I only tried to answer your question in good faith. That’s it.

However if anyone who wishes to join the discussion, I am very happy to do so. Same as you, I work 8 hrs a day, sometimes up to 10 hrs a day but still we should have time to discuss.

 

[thistle]

I am still in good faith trying to raise some new issues no one ever discussed.

Don’t ever assume I said THE BIBLE IS WRONG. The Bible is The Word Of The Lord and it contained the Truth. The way we read it could be wrong.It’s hard to read, so we must follow The Church’s stance and Her TEXT and its interpretations.

Don’t assume that ALL LATIN and ALL ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS are equally created and each word as translated constituted the true Bible and it should be THE BIBLE. Even the Clementine Vulgate that we cherished as of 1592 (from it came out many translations, The Douay Rheims included) has been REPLACED BY THE CHURCH in 1979. The Popes did never do anything that was unnecessary but were in a position to review, re-read and re-translate The Bible for us because It’s their duty to proclaim THE BIBLE…

Until now, the NAB is the Official Approved Text in the US but still The Church is striving for the better. Please see
bible-researcher.com/nab.html

In this post I just wanted to tell everyone that St Joseph, the great holy man was found qualified and chosen by YHWH The Holy Spirit to be The Lord’s Foster Father and The Blessed Mother’s husband assisting The Lord’s Salvation Plan.

The Plan of The Lord was perfect. St Joseph was requested to express his consent. He did. Midway, he fell into a great fear, he disqualified himself and wished to withdraw (dimittere did not only mean divorce)

YHWH then sent the angel, for the 2nd time to come to him in somnis (sommnis meant troubles in thinking - it did never only mean ‘a dream’. Raised up from his darkness ( hupnou did not only mean from a sleep) he immediately performed.
I did not say anything new - I did not say anything new- all facts were declared by St. Matthew in the first century andnow reaffirmed by Nova Vulgata, The Official Text Of The Church

I hope you have read chapter 2 of Matthew. How many times the angel must have visited Joseph to convince him to return to the homeland? I hope you have read the story of the prophet Jonah. I hope we all are aware of the agony of The Lord in the Gethsemane garden. It proved humans have fear and such fears troubled our thinking. To Jonah and Joseph, the fears drove them out because they were thinking of doing what was caused by human weakness but against God’s Plan. That might be logic but the facts already given us by Matthew.

There are many many other interesting issues I wish many to join with an open mind. I had read the ‘bible’ and understood the way many Catholics did. With the help of John Paul - especially his new set of punctuation marks in THE BIBLE - and with some humble knowledge in Greek and Latin - and after studying on the Jewish culture, my assumptions are now withdrawn.

It seemed to me if your mind is set because what was said and what was not said in the Douay Rheims to be the truth and only the truth, and that to read the Greek Text and the Latin text it was based on is irrelevant I then give up. Please continue to do what you have believed based on YOUR BIBLE.
I only tried to answer your question in good faith. That’s it.

However if anyone who wishes to join the discussion, I am very happy to do so. Same as you, I work 8 hrs a day, sometimes up to 10 hrs a day but still we should have time to discuss.

Its very simple. First Joseph and Mary were betrothed. Next was the Annunciation. Then AFTER that the angel spoke to Joseph. You tell me please who in the Church (apart from you) believes the first part of these three stages was the angel coming to Joseph?
So far I haven’t seen any posters who have said they believe your view.
You are a great admirer, as I am, of John Paul II. Did he specifically state that he believed the angel appeared to Joseph before the betrothal and before the Annunciation?