Did Joseph Smith ever quote from the Book of Mormon?

[ParkerD]

I didn’t say you had to agree with the Catholic teaching or even understand the Scriptures that support the Catholic belief. My point was that I thought you understood WHAT we believe - in the same way that I understand that Mormons believe their sacrament is symbolic and that any form (i.e. crackers & water) can be used. Clearly I don’t agree with that, but I understand that it is WHAT you believe.

I also understand you don’t agree that the apostles taught it, but that is your prerogative. You have been misled and simply refuse to view the Scriptures outside Joseph Smith’s distortions. Again, that is your prerogative.

I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Christ certainly does know the thoughts and prayers of everyone. But that does not diminish His presence in the Eucharist or the graces one receives when they receive Him in the Eucharist. My point was that the BoM denies these graces (and the graces imparted through Reconciliation, both of which ARE found in the Bible) to those who follow it (BoM)- so the statement that the BoM brings one “nearer to God” than the Bible is false.

Have a great day!

Jay53,
I can read the words, but I truly do not understand the mental logic that would come up with what I perceive that the words are saying, nor do I comprehend how one can think such a belief can be believed to draw a person “nearer to God” than the nearness associated with sincere prayer, fasting, exercising faith, and following Him by trying to be like Him which is really the ultimate goal He taught. (That would mean how they treat others would be foremost in their mind at all times, whether on the internet or in other settings in life, so they would be acting like He would act in the best heart-felt effort that they could to do that).

As far as “grace imparted through Reconciliation”, the LDS certainly believe in reconciliation by grace, but it is not as complicated as what I think I have understood the Catholic belief is. It is gained through repentance, and may sometimes include going through a process of confession to an LDS bishop if the sin were serious such as breaking the law of chastity. The bishop assists in discerning if the person has gone through the steps of repentance and is worthy to partake of communion in unity and full fellowship with the other members of the church.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Jay53,
I can read the words, but I truly do not understand the mental logic that would come up with what I perceive that the words are saying, nor do I comprehend how one can think such a belief can be believed to draw a person “nearer to God” than the nearness associated with sincere prayer, fasting, exercising faith, and following Him by trying to be like Him which is really the ultimate goal He taught. (That would mean how they treat others would be foremost in their mind at all times, whether on the internet or in other settings in life, so they would be acting like He would act in the best heart-felt effort that they could to do that).

You keep attempting to create a scenario with the Eucharist as something “replacing” sincere prayer, fasting, exercising faith, and following Him by trying to be like Him. Sorry, such a set up does not exist in the Catholic Church. We believe that we can and do develop a relationship with God and draw near to Him through sincere prayer, fasting, exercising faith, and following Him by trying to be like Him. We also believe that the Eucharist, which is also called Communion in our Church, is the entrance of the participant into a real communion with God as well as with others. The Eucharist does not “replace prayer” for Catholics, as you claimed earlier, especially since it is found within an extended prayer context, which is what the Mass is. In the Mass, we pray to God as a community, we read the scriptures, we sing hymns, we ask for forgiveness, and we partake in the Eucharist.

As far as “grace imparted through Reconciliation”, the LDS certainly believe in reconciliation by grace, but it is not as complicated as what I think I have understood the Catholic belief is. It is gained through repentance, and may sometimes include going through a process of confession to an LDS bishop if the sin were serious such as breaking the law of chastity. The bishop assists in discerning if the person has gone through the steps of repentance and is worthy to partake of communion in unity and full fellowship with the other members of the church.

There is nothing complicated about Catholic reconciliation. We believe that one can pray to God “directly” for forgiveness of minor sins. We do this every Sunday at Mass. We believe that major sins must be confessed to a priest. One must be truly repentant in all scenarios. The priest offers advice after the person confesses the specific sins. After confession, the priest will assign a “penance” to help the person turn their mind back to God and advice to make amends to those affected by the sin. It’s that simple.

 

[Jay53]

You keep attempting to create a scenario with the Eucharist as something “replacing” sincere prayer, fasting, exercising faith, and following Him by trying to be like Him. Sorry, such a set up does not exist in the Catholic Church. We believe that we can and do develop a relationship with God and draw near to Him through sincere prayer, fasting, exercising faith, and following Him by trying to be like Him. We also believe that the Eucharist, which is also called Communion in our Church, is the entrance of the participant into a real communion with God as well as with others. The Eucharist does not “replace prayer” for Catholics, as you claimed earlier, especially since it is found within an extended prayer context, which is what the Mass is. In the Mass, we pray to God as a community, we read the scriptures, we sing hymns, we ask for forgiveness, and we partake in the Eucharist.

There is nothing complicated about Catholic reconciliation. We believe that one can pray to God “directly” for forgiveness of minor sins. We do this every Sunday at Mass. We believe that major sins must be confessed to a priest. One must be truly repentant in all scenarios. The priest offers advice after the person confesses the specific sins. After confession, the priest will assign a “penance” to help the person turn their mind back to God and advice to make amends to those affected by the sin. It’s that simple.

Very well said!

Parker and I have been through all of this before - I have explained to him that those two Sacraments are, for me, the “clinchers” of my faith. They are 2 of the things about my faith that are the MOST important to me and of which I have absolutely no doubt. Everything else about Mormonism could be correct, but the fact that Mormonism denies Christ present in the Eucharist and denies the authority of priests to forgive sins (in persona Christi) (which BTW is clearly given by Jesus to His apostles (John 20:21-23)) confirms that Mormonism is NOT from God and, in turn, exposes the lies and distortions of the rest of it.

Parker, you have not experienced the grace of God through these Sacraments, (because you have not received them) so you cannot say that they do not bring one nearer to God. I have. I have no doubt that you are sincere in your prayers and that you draw nearer to God through your prayer - but so does everyone else who sincerely prays to God. You are still missing the deeper experience of His Love, Grace and Mercy which He offers to us through those Sacraments. You may not believe in them, but for those of us who have received these Sacraments, we experience this deeper relationship, we believe and we know what a great blessing they are to us on Earth as we struggle through daily life.

 

[Catholic20064]

Jay53,
I can read the words, but I truly do not understand the mental logic that would come up with what I perceive that the words are saying, nor do I comprehend how one can think such a belief can be believed to draw a person “nearer to God” than the nearness associated with sincere prayer, fasting, exercising faith, and following Him by trying to be like Him which is really the ultimate goal He taught. (That would mean how they treat others would be foremost in their mind at all times, whether on the internet or in other settings in life, so they would be acting like He would act in the best heart-felt effort that they could to do that).

As far as “grace imparted through Reconciliation”, the LDS certainly believe in reconciliation by grace, but it is not as complicated as what I think I have understood the Catholic belief is. It is gained through repentance, and may sometimes include going through a process of confession to an LDS bishop if the sin were serious such as breaking the law of chastity. The bishop assists in discerning if the person has gone through the steps of repentance and is worthy to partake of communion in unity and full fellowship with the other members of the church.

Mormons believe the temple ceremony helps draw them closer to God. The temple ceremony is word for word same every time they go. It is presented as the pinnacle of Mormon worship even though it is most often realized through a repetitive film presentation. It is taught they can learn something new every time they go to the temple. Perhaps that is the way Mormons can best understand the meaning of the mass for Catholics. Even though the mass is repetitive, a person can get closer to God and learn a lot just by participating sincerely in the mass. The mass is the way the Catholic community prays together. If a Catholic listens to the words of the mass they are going to gain a greater insight into God and His plans since the words of the mass mainly come from scripture.

I might also mention that other important prayers in Mormonism such as the sacramental prayers and the baptismal prayer must be said word for word. If one word is out of place in any of these prayers, the one praying has to start over and say them correctly. I think if a Mormon were to pray the Lord’s Prayer word for word or the Divine Mercy Chaplet word for word they would come to understand how those prayers bring a person closer to God just as the temple ceremonies and the other set prayers in Mormonism are helpful to them.

 

[msvsheppard]

Good Day to You!

I don’t have a direct answer to your question, however, I do not believe that the LDS church claims that the Book of Mormon is superior to the Bible, just that it is another testament to the Bible. Having read the Book of Mormon, myself, I find nothing in it that is contrary to the teachings found in the Bible. As a matter of fact, there are footnotes in every Book of Mormon directing the reader to references found in the Bible that quantify the scriptures as they are in the Book of Mormon.

God Bless You!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Good Day to You!

I don’t have a direct answer to your question, however, I do not believe that the LDS church claims that the Book of Mormon is superior to the Bible, just that it is another testament to the Bible. Having read the Book of Mormon, myself, I find nothing in it that is contrary to the teachings found in the Bible. As a matter of fact, there are footnotes in every Book of Mormon directing the reader to references found in the Bible that quantify the scriptures as they are in the Book of Mormon.

God Bless You!

msvsheppard, Mormons believe the BoM is another testament of Christ, not of the Bible.

Those footnote references from the BoM to the KJV provide a unique, yet false, understanding of the Bible. I know because I was raised Mormon, and when you understand the Bible as it truly is, it is like reading something you never read before. Many converts from Mormonism will tell you the same thing.

An example of a false teaching in the BoM:

2 Nephi

18 But behold, that great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth, must tumble to the earth, and great must be the fall thereof. 19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

Up until about 30 years ago, Mormon leaders taught this passage was referring to the Catholic Church. Teaching that Christ’s Church is an abomination and that the gates of hell have prevailed against it, is contrary to Christ’s teachings in the Bible.

In addition, the BoM is not the only extra Mormon scripture. Their “Pearl of Great Price” and “Doctrine and Covenants” contain their doctrinal beliefs. These books are also cross referenced in BoM footnotes. Further study will show you how Mormonism is “not of the vine”.

peace,
Rebecca

 

[Returning_Home]

Good Day to You!

I don’t have a direct answer to your question, however, I do not believe that the LDS church claims that the Book of Mormon is superior to the Bible, just that it is another testament to the Bible. Having read the Book of Mormon, myself, I find nothing in it that is contrary to the teachings found in the Bible. As a matter of fact, there are footnotes in every Book of Mormon directing the reader to references found in the Bible that quantify the scriptures as they are in the Book of Mormon.

God Bless You!

Of course we don’t find anything contradictory; when Joseph Smith wrote it, he plagiarized directly from the Bible which is apparent because Lehi and Nephi used, as parts of the regular speech parts of the Bible. They didn’t just use parts of the Bible, but of the New testament, and not just the New Testament, but of the KJV specifically. How, then, could men who lived some before 900 years before the Bible was assembled be quoting from a regional specific version of it not published for another 700 year after that?

Does that make sense?

Not only do you not find anything in the BOM contradictory to the Bible, you also don’t find any parts of modern Mormonism in it either. In fact, the BOM has exactly nothing to do with the church today whatsoever.

The god of the BOM is an eternal spirit; the god of Mormonism has a body of flesh and bone, the BOM tells us that grace is sufficient for salvation; modern Mormonism has an endless series of works callings, the original version of the BOM was wholly Trinitarian in view; modern Mormonism holds that they are three seprate and distinct entities. The list goes on and on and on.

And of course the church claims that the BOM is superior to the Bible, as proven by 1 Nephi 13:26-42, which makes it clear that the Bible is missing many plain and precious things, saying it seven times so as not to be misunderstood its position on the matter.

You claim to be a Catholic but I think you’re a Mormon in disguise; in fact, you already gave yourself away.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Any author can write a book of fiction and footnote it to the Bible…it means nothing. Jose was a fraud. He was a treasure seeker who tried several scams till he found one that worked- religion

 

[Returning_Home]

Any author can write a book of fiction and footnote it to the Bible…it means nothing. Jose was a fraud. He was a treasure seeker who tried several scams till he found one that worked- religion

Don’t forget that he did so even after settling on prophethood as his profession: the Kirtland bank scam.

 

[Returning_Home]

Since msvsheppard revealed himself to be a Mormon, I sent him the list of phrases and verses stolen from the New Testament that we find in the BOM. If anyone else would like the list, just ask.

After receiving and likely dismissing the list of stolen passages, he said to me on a PM: “Thank you. My observation was simply that the LDS church does not claim the Book of Mormon to be better than the Bible.”

This isn’t true, of course, and we all know it. In Mormonism, the BOM is far better than the Bible. I replied: "Have you now corrected that erroneous assumption?

"If not, consider this: the prophet speaks for God (D&C 21:4-5, Gospel Principles, p 49), he cannot lead the church astray (Gospel Principles, p 50), and that members are follow his inspired teachings (Gospel Principles, pp 49-50)

"Therefore, let’s see what your god thinks of the Bible, shall we?

“Unlike the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators, and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text, the BOM came from writer to reader in just one inspired step of translation.” (Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, Jan 1992, p 5)

“So if your god doesn’t believe in the accuracy of the Bible, why should you?”

I’ve posted more-or-less this exact response on threads before and if I were wrong, someone would’ve pointed it out at the time.

He then responded with: "You are very rude. AND the Book of Mormon is not D&C. (I never claimed it was.) And I am very familiar with the LDS teachings AND a very spiritual Catholic of 40 years. The LDS people that I know and have spent a year studying with make it very clear that the Book of Mormon is considered to be a third testament to the Bible.

“Now, please do NOT contact me again. You have sworn and made all sorts of short sighted and biased statements that show just how much you do NOT know about anything you claim to know so much about. You are not impressing me to consider your point of view, only that you are impressed with yourself and your supposed knowledge of written words when we both know that neither the Catholic nor the LDS church are based so much on word as on action, faith, and spirit. Written words without any of those are completely worthless.”

Would anyone like to point out in what way I was rude? How is sharing the facts about something ‘rude?’ And if he didn’t know these things, he either isn’t as familiar with LDS teachings as he’d have me believe or that he’s a believer who’s already given the church a pass for its errors so he can maintain his priesthood. His post history shows only this response and his account was created on the 10th, three days after this thread was started, making me think that his is a shell account for a Mormon apologist who’s not willing to speak up using his own account.

When have I, at any time, sworn on the forum? And when have any of my comments been any less than reasonable, rational, and logical? And when have I shown any bias against Mormons as people?

 

[SirThomasMore]

you were not rude. When someone is exposed, they get agitated and tend to get defensive and accusatory. That is what happened here

 

[twopekinguys]

Although it comes in various forms, we see it quite often from many of our lds posters.

Attack the individual, and not the information they are presenting.

It really is a sad tactic.

Afterthought: I don’t think it is a wise idea to post the contents of private messages. (I just don’t want you to get in trouble)

after-afterthought. Isn’t it amazing how many people when confronted with an issue, get indignant, then say well, I was “Catholic” for XX years? I have to wonder if they use the same tactic on say a Baptist or Methodist board.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Even if you think that Returning Home is lying (which he isn’t), still, who are you going to trust more? A Mormon who is out for your soul, or a Catholic who is trying help you from leaping to the destruction of it.

Has the book been prayed about yet?

 

[Returning_Home]

Even if you think that Returning Home is lying (which he isn’t), still, who are you going to trust more? A Mormon who is out for your soul, or a Catholic who is trying help you from leaping to the destruction of it.

Has the book been prayed about yet?

Thank you, Rebecca. No, I don’t lie about this; in fact, I’m very serious about this topic because this is exactly where God put me to do his work. This probably isn’t what I would’ve chosen myself, but it wasn’t exactly up to me. I can look back and see the little things that God did to prepare me for what I’m doing now. When one phase is finished, another begins; there have been clean breaks in the different parts of what He has me doing right now.

That all said, what book are we praying over? The BOM? The Communist Manifesto? Mein Kampf? The repair manual for my truck? Frankly, I expect a burning in the bosom for all of the above.

 

[Returning_Home]

you were not rude. When someone is exposed, they get agitated and tend to get defensive and accusatory. That is what happened here

I call 'em the way I see 'em. Could this be whyme’s new account, perhaps?

 

[msvsheppard]

Why do you think that Mormons are out to get your soul? This is a serious question.

 

[Returning_Home]

Why do you think that Mormons are out to get your soul? This is a serious question.

You won’t get mine; I’m cult-proof.

Mormonism is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and most can’t see it; it’s sort of like invasion of the pod people, always wanting more to devour, everyone it can sink its theological teeth into.

A false prophet makes false prophecies and those who follow them have to account for it at the judgement seat of Jesus Christ Almighty. You might be able to fool mere mortal men but I’m pretty sure you can’t fool God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Galations 1

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

---

Mormonism teaches there is a different New and Everlasting Covenant. They called it “plural marriage”, now they call it “celestial marriage”.

The faithful know there is only One Everlasting Covenant, that of Jesus Christ.

Don’t mistake their “works from the law” as “good fruits”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That all said, what book are we praying over?

Doesn’t matter which one.

“We” should have no reason to pray over anything on that list. Why would we, when we have Jesus Christ, His Church, His Sacraments. What is a false religion going to offer that has not already been given to us? Why look elsewhere?

It is a protestant urge, to say the least. One that is a temptation for more than a few. There is only one remedy, return to Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

(Edited to remove quote of deleted post)

“The Council reminds us that sin is also a wound inflicted upon the Church. In fact, every sin harms the holiness of the ecclesial community. Since all the faithful are in solidarity in the Christian community, there can never be a sin which does not have an effect on the whole community. If it is true that the good done by one person is a benefit and help to all the others, unfortunately it is equally true that the evil committed by one obstructs the perfection to which all are tending. If every person who seeks perfection lifts up the whole world as Blessed Elisabeth Leseur said, it is also true that every act which betrays the divine love weighs down the human condition and impoverishes the Church. Reconciliation with God is also reconciliation with the Church, and in a certain sense with all of creation, whose harmony is violated by sin. The Church is the mediatrix of this reconciliation. Her Founder assigned this role to her and gave her the mission and power of “forgiving sins.” Every instance of reconciliation with God thus takes place in an explicit or implicit, conscious or unconscious relationship with the Church. St. Thomas writes about “the unity of the Mystical Body, without which there can be no salvation; for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church, according to St. Peter (1 Pet 3:20-21)” (Summa Theol., III, q. 73, a. 3; cf. Suppl., III, q. 17, a. 1). Without a doubt the power to pardon belongs to God, and the forgiveness of sins is the work of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, forgiveness comes from the application to the sinner of the redemption gained through the cross of Christ (cf. Eph 1:7; Col 1:14, 20). He entrusted the Church with the mission and ministry of bringing salvation to the whole world in his name (cf. Summa Theol., III, q. 84, a. 1). Forgiveness is asked of God and granted by God, but not independently of the Church founded by Jesus Christ for the salvation of all.” ("Penance In The Ecclesial Community", Pope John Paul II, April 1992)