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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes, i can see the truth in this. I’m reminded of Jesus’ words to Niccodemus:
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
(John 3)
What He appears to be saying to me is that if a person loves his sin more than Him, then the condemnation for this deception is deserved. Jesus seems to be making a similar point to the one you are making, don’t you think?
I agree, too, that relying on the wisdom and truth of the word of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit is the best way to avoid the trap of Satan. However, i am not (at least not yet) convinced that this is a guarantee. Perhaps you will yet convince me.
Tell me, if it is not too far off the topic, have you, since becoming a Latter Day Saint, been deceived, even for a moment? If you were, do you think it was sin or a lack of trust or something else that fooled you, though not for long? You don’t have to answer if you think it too personal a question to ask, or see no value in giving such a frank response.
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holdencaulfield
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Here are some links that might clear things up for you:
20 Truths about Mormonism
This one was written by a former-Mormon
Distinctive Beliefs of the Mormons
The Gods of the Mormon Church
Before reading this I had no idea the Mormon Church was a polytheistic religion.
Problems with the Book of Mormon
Mormon Stumpers
A brief article about Joseph Smith
Another article on Mormonism.
I think that you should read these and then you will know whats true. I think you should read them too zer.
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zerinus
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My recommendation to you is to just ignore them. Most of these people are apostates from Mormonism, and their behavior does not come as a surprise to us. They are best ignored. That is what I do. You can learn a lesson from me!Have you not eyes to see?
How many times must this non-Latter Day Saint quote from the Book of Mormon before you stop asking?
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Socrates4Jesus
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What do you mean by “nothing is precise” Rob?
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holdencaulfield
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I think that when Joseph Smith was inventing the BoM he forgot that naval technology was not that good at the time. Most sailors stayed close to the shore and didn’t stray far from the sight of land. The first historical record of someone landing in North America is Leif Erikson who didn’t reach North America until 1001 AD. Sailors of this time would certainly not cross the Atlantic Ocean because it was to difficult for them at the time.
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Socrates4Jesus
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My wife is a teacher and she calls me a kinesthetic learner. Essentially that means i learn best by doing. When it comes to learning new ideas, i learn best by discussing them with someone. This is perhaps why i like Socrates so much, for he loved learning the same way. If you want to teach me something new, tell me in your own words so that we might have a good dialog.
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holdencaulfield
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The BoM is often vague and contradicts itself in various places because it was fabricated many different times and different ways.What do you mean by “nothing is precise” Rob?
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holdencaulfield
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Well here are just some of my sources, if you want to back me up on what I say but in general I would not trust Joseph Smith to pay me back if I lent him $5 for lunch. He would often claim to know where buried treasure was and charge people for it, but would run off or weasel his way out of it when no one could find the treasure.
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Socrates4Jesus
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Yes, that is one question i was going to ask my friend Zer about. From what i understand of the ancient history of Palestine, the Phoenicians, not the Jewish people, were the sailors of the Mediterranean Sea.
Maybe Zer has thought of this before, asked the Holy Spirit for the truth, and has a good answer for both of us?
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Socrates4Jesus
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When i first became a believer, a major in the US Army told me something i found astonishing. When i told him i believed there were contradictions in the Bible, he said, “Son, i’ve been reading the Bible for many years, and i’ve never found one!”
So, i started reading the Bible, to prove him wrong. What troubled me is that i could not find any. It dawned on me that all the people who sounded so sure there were contradictions never pointed out one to me. After years of reading the Bible, the contradictions i thought i’d found turned out to be apparent, but not real.
Please tell me, Holden, what contradictions can you show me in the Book of Mormon i have at my side this moment? Please quote chapter and verse so i may see for myself.
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RebeccaJ
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The BoM has a large bit of plagiarism from the Bible, at it was written at a time when Smith had a more Trinity view than he did in later. His views of God morphed over time and in the end, they wound up polytheistic. Often, Christians reading the BoM will recognize the parallels to Christianity, but the BoM does not contain all of what mormons believe.
I also recommend reading the mormon Pearl of Great Price. It contains the mormon doctrines that the missionaries aren’t telling you about.
The Book of Abraham in that particular book has been shown to be completely fraudulent. Smith “translated” a bit of real Egyptian papyrus, before the Rosetta stone had been found and Egyptian writing was able to be truly translated. What Smith “translated” and what the papyrus actually say, are not even close, at all. Miles apart.
Does a true prophet seek to deceive in this manner? And would a true prophet be led by God into such a farce?
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holdencaulfield
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That’s quite true. I’m sure he will think of something, but using common sense and our knowledge of history and archeology we can see that it is quite unlikely.
The journey is approximately 5,474 miles from Gibraltar to Central America.
If they landed in the Azores then they would first have a journey of about 1,192 miles and then a journey of 3, 201 miles to Cuba and so on.
Sound unlikely. It’s even more unlikely considering the way ships were built in that time.
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holdencaulfield
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One God:
2 Nephi 2:14; Jacob 4:9 Pearl of Great Price - Moses, Chapter 2
Many Gods:
Book of Abraham - Chapters 4 and 5
polygamy is wrong:
B. of M. - Jacob 1:15, 2:24, 3:5; Mosiah 11:2
polygamy is right:
D. & C. - Section 132:1, 37-39, 61
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Socrates4Jesus
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Thank you Holden. I rather like archeology and am amazed at how often the archaeological evidence supports the Bible. One striking example is the city of Nineveh. For years critics of the Bible scoffed that the story of Jonah and the city of Nineveh were fictitious, until archaeologists unearthed the ruins of the city.
I imagine what would help would be the remains of some Phoenician-style ships found along the coast of America (you know, with a bow shaped like a sea serpent, one large sail, and many long oars). I’m not aware of any that have been found, but i have much to learn, even about archaeological discoveries.
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Socrates4Jesus
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zerinus
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Yes, thank you. I agree.
It is a guarantee because God has said so. That is why one of the names of the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. There are two forces in operation in the world: one is the Spirit of God, which is Light and Truth, and whose essence is Truth; and the other is the spirit of Satan, whose essence is that of darkness and a lie. The only way to avoid being deceived by the evil spirit is to flee to the Spirit of God, which is Light and Truth. Hence the Lord’s counsel to His disciples:
John 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: . . .
And John’s teachings:
1 John 2:
27 But the anointing [of the Holy Ghost] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
That depends on what you mean by “being deceived”. If by that you mean whether I have made any mistakes in my life or not, the answer is yes, sure I have. No man is perfect, and we are all liable to make mistakes. I have even committed sins that I have had to repent of. But lucky for us, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, when we sin we can repent of them, and God has said that if we repent, He will forgive us of our sins. But if by “being deceived” you meant that any doubts has arisen in my mind about the truth of the Church I adhere to, or of the holy calling of its leaders, the answer to that is absolutely not. I have never had any reason to want to question that at all.
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wanner47
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Jesus “shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem, which is in the land of our forefathers” (Alma 7:10). Doesn’t Matthew 2:1 tell us that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? This seems like a pretty big contradiction to me.
In Ether 2:3, claims that honeybees were introduced into to New World around 2000 B.C. (“And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind”), but modern science has demonstrated that honeybees were brought to the New World in the 15th century by Spanish explorers.
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holdencaulfield
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Those are contradictions as well. If you want us to take you seriously zer at least answer our questions. Don’t just answer about how “happy” you feel when you read the BoM
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Socrates4Jesus
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You know more about it than i do. I don’t know enough to say one way or the other.
I think what i’d like to do is follow Zer’s advice and read the Book of Mormon and see what answers he has for me. I appreciate your concern, and would be grateful for your prayers. If i decide to reject the Book of Mormon, i’d like to do so after i’ve done my level best to see whether it teaches the truth. If it teaches the truth and shows itself to be trustworthy, how could i reject it?
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