Did Joseph Smith ever quote from the Book of Mormon?

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Yes, I am saying that; with the added proviso that after reading the Book of Mormon, and obtaining a testimony of the Holy Ghost that it is true, that “personal conviction” and “intense interest in reading the Bible” will increase many fold.

zerinus
OK, thank you. I cannot imagine how i might have more interest in the Bible or be more convinced of its truth. I suppose i could ask you about your interest and conviction and compare it to mine, but i won’t pry. Besides, i’m not so sure this line of questioning would have a good result:

Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, for each one should carry his own load.
(Galatians 6:4-5)
 
Zerinus,

I read your link, thank you.

First… comments:
  1. As I understand it, the Jewish canon was not set well before Catholicism (Christianity) came about - it was in fact understood, but not “canonized” until the days following Christ.
  2. Catholics don’t dole out membership cards to those who we deem lucky enough to read our bible… but to infer we had nothing to do with it is certainly not fair. Clearly and verifiably, the Church set the canon in the 4th century. It is true that much of the scripture had for years been commonly accepted as such, but in the face of heresy, apostasy (yes, some did apostatize), scandal, and the false teachings (and “gospels”) they spawned, the Church had to formalize (set a canon) those books that were inspired by God. They did this by exercising their authority in the Magisterium. I think you’ll recognize the concept of a group (an ecumenical council in this case) that works under the direction of God for a specific purpose and the good of the faithful.
Now more troubling… I didn’t know you believed in the Great Apostasy because you were a Mormon and not that you were a Mormon because you believed in the Great Apostasy… this is utterly amazing to me… do all Mormons believe this way? If this is true, aren’t you sort of putting the cart before the horse, and more to the point, putting Joseph Smith above Christ? I’m sure you would not say that, but essentially your “faith” in the vision Joseph Smith purportedly saw is trumping Christ’s own actions in beginning His church.

Understanding this, I can see why others on this board are pointing to Joseph Smith’s character… it becomes very much a topic for discussion.

Zerinus, do you think it possible that something other than God was instructing Joseph Smith in that copse of trees?

RAR
 
Quote by Socrates4Jesus
Yes, i believe these are reasons they repented and believed in Jesus Christ, but not the only reasons, as verse 2 gives additional reasons why they believed.
Perhaps if i tell you what 3 Nephi 5:2 means to me, you will be able to see what i mean. If you get my meaning and see that i have erred, i hope you will point out where i misunderstand the meaning of verse 2:

INDENT "And they knew that it must be expedient that Christ had come …"means(1b) They knew Jesus would come to themand (2a) "… because of the many signs which had been given, according to the words of the prophets …"means (2b) The reason why they knew Jesus would come to them is that they had witnessed, with their own eyes, the predictions the prophets made about the future actually come true …and (3a) "… and because of the things which had come to pass already they knew that it must needs be that all things should come to pass according to that which had been spoken."means(3b) Since those predictions of the future came true, they knew the other prediction, that is, the prediction that Jesus would soon come to them, would also come true.I’m not denying that the struggles with their enemies and the powerful preaching of God’s spokesperson played a role in their conversion. I’m not denying the power of the Spirit of God to convict them of the guilt of their sin of unbelief played a role. I’m just saying that, in addition to these, the evidence of the predictions of the future coming true also played a role in their repentance and putting their faith in Jesus Christ. I think this is what Mormon is teaching in verse 2, do you?

[/INDENT]
I think I know what you are getting at here. Okay, I will go along with that.

zerinus
OK, thank you, Zer, for patiently going down the rabbit trail of my previous series of questions! I’d like to get back to the main path of what the Book of Mormon has to say to me.

I think you and i are correct in agreeing that the Spirit of God uses fulfilled prophecies as one of many ways to convince a person that the Scriptures are true. This was certainly my own experience. I was amazed when i discovered that the Bible actually wrote history hundreds of years before it happened. There are several hundred predictions in the Old Testament that have already come true exactly as predicted. These prophecies are specific and verifiable and that which no human being could predict. There are prophecies about:
  • Jerusalem and nearly every ancient city within 1,000 miles of the Jerusalem
  • the Jewish people and Jewish nation
  • our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
What i’m finding, as i read the Book of Mormon, is that the Spirit of God is said to use fulfilled prophecy to convince people of the truth just as fulfilled prophecy is used as a reason for believing the truth in the pages of the Bible. An example is this passage from 3 Nephi 5:Therefore I have made my record of these things according to the record of Nephi, which was engraven on the plates which were called the plates of Nephi.
And behold, I do make the record on plates which I have made with mine own hands.
And behold, I am called Mormon, being called after the land of Mormon, the land in which Alma did establish the church among the people, yea, the first church which was established among them after their transgression.
Behold, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I have been called of him to declare his word among his people, that they might have everlasting life.
** Yea, and surely shall he again bring a remnant of the seed of Joseph to the knowledge of the Lord their God. **

**And as surely as the Lord liveth, will he gather in from the four quarters of the earth all the remnant of the seed of Jacob, who are scattered abroad upon all the face of the earth. **
And as he hath covenanted with all the house of Jacob, even so shall the covenant wherewith he hath covenanted with the house of Jacob be fulfilled in his own due time, unto the restoring all the house of Jacob unto the knowledge of the covenant that he hath covenanted with them.
And then shall they know their Redeemer, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and then shall they be gathered in from the four quarters of the earth unto their own lands, from whence they have been dispersed; yea, as the Lord liveth so shall it be. Amen.
(3 Nephi 5:10-13, 23-26)

Now, if these words were written circa AD 25, they would be seen as a prophecy not yet fulfilled at the time Joseph Smith introduced the Book of Mormon to America. The prophecy that the Jewish people would “be gathered from the four quarters of the earth unto their own lands” was not completely fulfilled until AD 1948, when the Jewish people won the first Israeli-Arab war and formed the nation of Israel.

Do you think i’m understanding correctly?
 
OK, thank you, Zer, for patiently going down the rabbit trail of my previous series of questions! I’d like to get back to the main path of what the Book of Mormon has to say to me.

I think you and i are correct in agreeing that the Spirit of God uses fulfilled prophecies as one of many ways to convince a person that the Scriptures are true. This was certainly my own experience. I was amazed when i discovered that the Bible actually wrote history hundreds of years before it happened. There are several hundred predictions in the Old Testament that have already come true exactly as predicted. These prophecies are specific and verifiable and that which no human being could predict. There are prophecies about:
  • Jerusalem and nearly every ancient city within 1,000 miles of the Jerusalem
  • the Jewish people and Jewish nation
  • our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
What i’m finding, as i read the Book of Mormon, is that the Spirit of God is said to use fulfilled prophecy to convince people of the truth just as fulfilled prophecy is used as a reason for believing the truth in the pages of the Bible. An example is this passage from 3 Nephi 5:Therefore I have made my record of these things according to the record of Nephi, which was engraven on the plates which were called the plates of Nephi.
And behold, I do make the record on plates which I have made with mine own hands.
And behold, I am called Mormon, being called after the land of Mormon, the land in which Alma did establish the church among the people, yea, the first church which was established among them after their transgression.
Behold, I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I have been called of him to declare his word among his people, that they might have everlasting life.
** Yea, and surely shall he again bring a remnant of the seed of Joseph to the knowledge of the Lord their God. **

**And as surely as the Lord liveth, will he gather in from the four quarters of the earth all the remnant of the seed of Jacob, who are scattered abroad upon all the face of the earth. **
And as he hath covenanted with all the house of Jacob, even so shall the covenant wherewith he hath covenanted with the house of Jacob be fulfilled in his own due time, unto the restoring all the house of Jacob unto the knowledge of the covenant that he hath covenanted with them.
And then shall they know their Redeemer, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and then shall they be gathered in from the four quarters of the earth unto their own lands, from whence they have been dispersed; yea, as the Lord liveth so shall it be. Amen.
(3 Nephi 5:10-13, 23-26)

Now, if these words were written circa AD 25, they would be seen as a prophecy not yet fulfilled at the time Joseph Smith introduced the Book of Mormon to America. The prophecy that the Jewish people would “be gathered from the four quarters of the earth unto their own lands” was not completely fulfilled until AD 1948, when the Jewish people won the first Israeli-Arab war and formed the nation of Israel.

Do you think i’m understanding correctly?
Yes, I think I can go along with that. I can even tell you a more interesting story in relation to that particular subject. In 1841 Joseph Smith, by commandment of the Lord sent one of the Apostles of the Church, Orson Hyde by name, to Jerusalem to dedicate the land for the return of the Jews. On October 24 1841 he climbed up the Mount of Olives, and offered a dedicatory prayer for the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland. You can read the text of his dedicatory prayer here. There is now an Orson Hyde memorial park in that place where he offered his dedicatory prayer, in which this commemorative stone can be seen.

zerinus
 
Zerinus,

I read your link, thank you.

First… comments:
  1. As I understand it, the Jewish canon was not set well before Catholicism (Christianity) came about - it was in fact understood, but not “canonized” until the days following Christ.
  2. Catholics don’t dole out membership cards to those who we deem lucky enough to read our bible… but to infer we had nothing to do with it is certainly not fair. Clearly and verifiably, the Church set the canon in the 4th century. It is true that much of the scripture had for years been commonly accepted as such, but in the face of heresy, apostasy (yes, some did apostatize), scandal, and the false teachings (and “gospels”) they spawned, the Church had to formalize (set a canon) those books that were inspired by God. They did this by exercising their authority in the Magisterium. I think you’ll recognize the concept of a group (an ecumenical council in this case) that works under the direction of God for a specific purpose and the good of the faithful.
Now more troubling… I didn’t know you believed in the Great Apostasy because you were a Mormon and not that you were a Mormon because you believed in the Great Apostasy… this is utterly amazing to me… do all Mormons believe this way? If this is true, aren’t you sort of putting the cart before the horse, and more to the point, putting Joseph Smith above Christ? I’m sure you would not say that, but essentially your “faith” in the vision Joseph Smith purportedly saw is trumping Christ’s own actions in beginning His church.

Understanding this, I can see why others on this board are pointing to Joseph Smith’s character… it becomes very much a topic for discussion.

Zerinus, do you think it possible that something other than God was instructing Joseph Smith in that copse of trees?

RAR
No.

zerinus
 
No.
Zerinus Mormon Apologetics 102: the Catchall Answer.

"When confronted with embarrassing correlations between what we mormons believe and how it contradicts Christian beliefs, especially placing our One True Prophet Jos Smith above Jesus Christ; just say ‘No.’ "

Robert
 
Zerinus,

Do all Mormons believe the way you do about the Great Apostasy? That they believe because they are Mormon? Or is that more your way of looking at it?

How then, do you explain the conferring of the priesthood by the laying on of hands? Wouldn’t this ensure that Christ’s Church wouldn’t fall into apostasy?

RAR

p.s. enjoy the Superbowl all.
 
Zerinus,

Do all Mormons believe the way you do about the Great Apostasy? That they believe because they are Mormon? Or is that more your way of looking at it?
Mormons are free to think as they like about things; and most Mormons do not think theologically as I do. But I think that every Mormon would tell you that they are Mormons because the Holy Spirit witnesses to them that it is true, not because of some belief in the Apostasy. I have never known anyone joining the LDS Church because of the Apostasy. The Apostasy is taught as part of the missionary discussions, because that is part of the theological explanation of it; but I have never known anyone saying that they joined because of the Apostasy. They will tell you that they did so after the Spirit of the Lord had witnessed to them that it is true.

If the Apostasy was their primary concern, they would go and join one of the Protestant churches. Why should they choose the LDS Church? The LDS Church is unique among the churches because it is based on revelation, and is a Restoration, not Reformation. Anybody joining the LDS Church will do so because of that unique selling point, not because of the Apostasy.
How then, do you explain the conferring of the priesthood by the laying on of hands? Wouldn’t this ensure that Christ’s Church wouldn’t fall into apostasy?
I have already discussed this subject many times before on this board, and it is not really possible to all of my posts on it, considering that I have more than 2,300 posts here. But the following is a representative sample. The title of each thread is printed in bold, with a link to the thread. The rest are posts within each thread. Some of the threads are quite long, so I have extracted the most important posts, to save you the trouble of having to trawl through the whole thread. Here they are:

Your Notre Dame Mormon on the Apostasy
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1594716&postcount=25
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1600278&postcount=72
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1600570&postcount=78
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1601252&postcount=103
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1601322&postcount=105
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1601734&postcount=119
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1603436&postcount=148
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1604661&postcount=167
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1605253&postcount=181
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1606553&postcount=189
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1613176&postcount=225
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1614080&postcount=227

Questions for your Notre Dame Mormon
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1532444&postcount=96
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1532457&postcount=98
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1535112&postcount=113
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1536283&postcount=117
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1536325&postcount=118
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1546117&postcount=154
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1547310&postcount=157
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1547317&postcount=158
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1549244&postcount=161

Mormons when did the Apostasy occur?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1947339&postcount=219
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1948082&postcount=226
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1949575&postcount=229
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1955352&postcount=277
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1956780&postcount=290
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1958372&postcount=298

Mormons and the 12 (or 15?) Apostles

The Apostle John, The Three Nephites and the "Great Apostasy"
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1901609&postcount=34
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1904338&postcount=37
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1904342&postcount=38
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1906435&postcount=44
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1910523&postcount=50
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1910532&postcount=51
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1910962&postcount=52
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1912854&postcount=58
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1913098&postcount=62
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1913359&postcount=67
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1916021&postcount=71
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1918629&postcount=80

zerinus
 
Yes, I think I can go along with that. I can even tell you a more interesting story in relation to that particular subject. In 1841 Joseph Smith, by commandment of the Lord sent one of the Apostles of the Church, Orson Hyde by name, to Jerusalem to dedicate the land for the return of the Jews. On October 24 1841 he climbed up the Mount of Olives, and offered a dedicatory prayer for the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland. You can read the text of his dedicatory prayer here. There is now an Orson Hyde memorial park in that place where he offered his dedicatory prayer, in which this commemorative stone can be seen.

zerinus
Yes, Zer, that is remarkable! You might be surprised to learn that there were many Methodist and other ministers of the 19th century who saw the Zionist movement among Jewish people who were returning to what is today Israel as a sign of a prophecy about to be fulfilled. These ministers cited this passage of the Old Testament, among others, as a prophecy yet to be fulfilled:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

(Isaiah 11:11-12)
It seems then that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon prompted both Mormons and Protestants to expect the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

👍

However, i recall an objection someone made earlier in this discussion that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Bible. Now, i do not think 3 Nephi 5 may rightly be called plagiarism, but the prediction of Mormon is remarkably similar to that of Isaiah.

So, i must ask, how should you and i respond to this objection? It seems the best way to silence the skeptics would be to point out a prediction in the Book of Mormon that is not in the Old Testament. Do you know of any prophecies in the Book of Mormon that are not in the Bible?
 
Zerinus,
If the Apostasy was their primary concern, they would go and join one of the Protestant churches. Why should they choose the LDS Church? The LDS Church is unique among the churches because it is based on revelation, and is a Restoration, not Reformation. Anybody joining the LDS Church will do so because of that unique selling point, not because of the Apostasy.
I don’t mean to attribute a greater significance to the GA than it has due and don’t mean to say it is the only thing Mormons base their faith on, but it is inextricably linked to the concept of the Restoration.

Revelation also speaks of false prophets and one who would deceive nations… it does give me some pause when thinking about Mormonism (though I’m an optimist at heart). Consider for a minute my position… Christ establishes a church and endows it with everything it needs to propagate itself (Holy Orders, Apostolic Succession, and the College of Bishops working as the Magisterium to ensure the propagation of the faith), He promises that He will be with us always, and warns us of those who would come as deceivers and false prophets… then a church arises that seemingly turns everything on end that He had established, speaking of a Great Apostasy in His early church, challenging the concept of His Oneness, and telling men that they may become gods. I hope you realize the concern and fear of many.

You have been faithful in answering my questions, thank you. To ask another, more personal question in many ways, how would you respond (both to the question and personally) if evidence was presented that proved the BoM and/or Joseph Smith’s claims to be false? I don’t have this evidence, but I’ve read of pretty convincing stuff (I’m sure no one has pointed it out yet… 😉 ). If, let’s say, Joseph Smith’s own memoirs were found and it was revealed that he had constructed the whole thing?

You could ask me the same question, namely how would I respond if scientists found the tomb and body of Jesus, but it really is a different question because we live in a different time… I could easily dismiss it as not really being the body of Jesus.

But, in recent times, this is not the case and it could be reasonably proven.

RAR
 
To ask another, more personal question in many ways, how would you respond (both to the question and personally) if evidence was presented that proved the BoM and/or Joseph Smith’s claims to be false? I don’t have this evidence, but I’ve read of pretty convincing stuff (I’m sure no one has pointed it out yet… 😉 ). If, let’s say, Joseph Smith’s own memoirs were found and it was revealed that he had constructed the whole thing?
I would be grateful. Better for a fraudalent idea to fall then to live another day. I think that many mormons would be sad at first, then lost. First because the lds church stands for a lot of good. Second, because it gives people the hope of eternal life and heavenly connection.

And then lost because the lds church will be finished.
 
Mormons are free to think as they like about things; and most Mormons do not think theologically as I do. But I think that every Mormon would tell you that they are Mormons because the Holy Spirit witnesses to them that it is true, not because of some belief in the Apostasy. I have never known anyone joining the LDS Church because of the Apostasy. The Apostasy is taught as part of the missionary discussions, because that is part of the theological explanation of it; but I have never known anyone saying that they joined because of the Apostasy. They will tell you that they did so after the Spirit of the Lord had witnessed to them that it is true. …
Zer:

I’m still trying to understand the experience one has to convince him that the Book of Mormon is trustworthy. I know you cannot speak for the experiences of others, but perhaps you might discuss your experience more fully with me?

What you have told me so far (and please correct me if i’m not remembering right) is that, while reading the Book of Mormon, you had a strong feeling of conviction that it was true. This conviction, you were certain, came from the Holy Spirit, and was not based on any evidence outside this personal witness you received from the Spirit of God. Is this accurate, or am i misunderstanding something?
 
Yes, Zer, that is remarkable! You might be surprised to learn that there were many Methodist and other ministers of the 19th century who saw the Zionist movement among Jewish people who were returning to what is today Israel as a sign of a prophecy about to be fulfilled. These ministers cited this passage of the Old Testament, among others, as a prophecy yet to be fulfilled:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

(Isaiah 11:11-12)
It seems then that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon prompted both Mormons and Protestants to expect the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

👍

However, i recall an objection someone made earlier in this discussion that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Bible. Now, i do not think 3 Nephi 5 may rightly be called plagiarism, but the prediction of Mormon is remarkably similar to that of Isaiah.

So, i must ask, how should you and i respond to this objection? It seems the best way to silence the skeptics would be to point out a prediction in the Book of Mormon that is not in the Old Testament. Do you know of any prophecies in the Book of Mormon that are not in the Bible?
In answer to the first part of your question, of the charge of plagiarism against the Book of Mormon because it makes the same predictions of the gathering and restoration of the Israel in the latter days that the Bible does, the answer to that is, if that is considered plagiarism, then all the Old Testament prophets were plagiarizing from each other, and New Testament prophets were plagiarizing form the Old Testament prophets, because they all prophesied of the same thing. There are two major themes that run through all OT and NT prophecy; they are: 1) the scattering, and 2) the subsequent gathering of Israel in the last days. All OT prophets have prophesied to this theme, some to a lesser and some to a greater degree. It was the most important subject of prophecy in the OT, and also in the NT. The Book of Mormon is no different. It is the product of Hebrew culture and OT literature; therefore it should not come as a surprise that its prophets should also prophesy of the same themes.

Sending Orson Hyde to Jerusalem to dedicate the land for the return of the Jews, however, falls into a different category from what can be called “plagiarism”. Making verbal predictions about the gathering of Israel, which doesn’t const anybody anything, is one thing; sending someone to make a hazardous journey by land and sea to Jerusalem to dedicate it at that time is something different. That is called “putting your money where your mouth is”.

In answer to the second part of your question, regarding any prophecies in the Book of Mormon which are not found in the Bible, don’t you think it would be better if you read the Book of Mormon yourself, and answered that question for yourself? Why should I answer your every question which you can answer for yourself by reading the book? When you have finished reading all of the Book of Mormon, come back to me with that question, and I will discuss it with you further.

zerinus
 
Zerinus,
I don’t mean to attribute a greater significance to the GA than it has due and don’t mean to say it is the only thing Mormons base their faith on, but it is inextricably linked to the concept of the Restoration.
From the “Preach My Gospel” manual of the mormon church:

“Investigators must understand that a universal apostasy occurred following the death of Jesus Christ and His Apostles. If there had been no apostasy, there would have been no need of a Restoration.”

Based on the mormon church, the mormon church is unnecessary, as there has never been proof of this so-called “universal apostasy”.
 
I can even tell you a more interesting story in relation to that particular subject. In 1841 Joseph Smith, by commandment of the Lord sent one of the Apostles of the Church, Orson Hyde by name, to Jerusalem to dedicate the land for the return of the Jews. On October 24 1841 he climbed up the Mount of Olives, and offered a dedicatory prayer for the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland.
zerinus
I can tell you an even more interesting story about WHY Joseph sent Orson Hyde far away from home:
Fifteen-year-old Marinda Johnson and her family were baptized into the church during the winter of 1830, near Kirtland, Ohio. “The [following] fall”, Marinda wrote, “Joseph came with his family to live at my father’s house. He was at that time translating the Bible…” For the next year, Joseph lived in the Johnson home.
In 1833, Marinda met and was courted by Orson Hyde. A year later they would marry. Within months of the marriage, Orson was called to be an Apostle of the church, a calling which meant he would spend two of the next three and one-half years in the Eastern States and England in missionary service. Back home Marinda raised their two children. By June 1839 Marinda and Orson had relocated to Nauvoo. A third child soon arrived.
On April 6, 1840, Orson wrote, “I was appointed, in company with Elder John E. Page, to go on a mission to Jerusalem”. A week later, Orson left for what would be a three year mission. On October 24, 1841, Orson stood on the Mount of Olives and consecrated Palestine for the gathering of Judah in the last days.
In the Spring of 1842 (while Orson was still overseas) Marinda, while still married to Orson, married Joseph. In Joseph’s diary is a list of his marriages. It includes the entry: “Apr 42 Marinda Johnson to Joseph Smith.”. Eight months later, in December, Orson returned from his mission. It is not clear when, or if, Orson learned about his wife’s marriage to Joseph. However, by March, Orson had learned about plural marriage himself and married two additional wives.
After Joseph’s death in 1844, Marinda and Orson continued to live in Nauvoo. In April of 1846, shortly before leaving for Utah, Orson dedicated the Nauvoo temple. Over the next 20 years, Marinda would bear 7 more children. Orson would continue to serve missions and marry seven additional wives. In 1870 Marinda and Orson divorced.
Reminds me of David sending Uriah the Hittite to his death so he could marry Uriah’s wife Bathsheba.

Paul
 
I can tell you an even more interesting story about WHY Joseph sent Orson Hyde far away from home:

Reminds me of David sending Uriah the Hittite to his death so he could marry Uriah’s wife Bathsheba.

Paul
That is a very wicked and slanderous accusation.

zerinus
 
That is a very wicked and slanderous accusation.

zerinus
Yes it is wicked of Joe, and also true. While Smith’s cousin Oliver was away, Smith received a “revelation” that he should marry Oliver’s wife.

When Oliver returned, his wife went back to living with him. This is commonly known as “wife swapping”.

It is not slander to state fact.
 
Zerinus,

I don’t mean to attribute a greater significance to the GA than it has due and don’t mean to say it is the only thing Mormons base their faith on, but it is inextricably linked to the concept of the Restoration.

Revelation also speaks of false prophets and one who would deceive nations… it does give me some pause when thinking about Mormonism (though I’m an optimist at heart). Consider for a minute my position… Christ establishes a church and endows it with everything it needs to propagate itself (Holy Orders, Apostolic Succession, and the College of Bishops working as the Magisterium to ensure the propagation of the faith), He promises that He will be with us always, and warns us of those who would come as deceivers and false prophets… then a church arises that seemingly turns everything on end that He had established, speaking of a Great Apostasy in His early church, challenging the concept of His Oneness, and telling men that they may become gods. I hope you realize the concern and fear of many.

You have been faithful in answering my questions, thank you. To ask another, more personal question in many ways, how would you respond (both to the question and personally) if evidence was presented that proved the BoM and/or Joseph Smith’s claims to be false? I don’t have this evidence, but I’ve read of pretty convincing stuff (I’m sure no one has pointed it out yet… 😉 ). If, let’s say, Joseph Smith’s own memoirs were found and it was revealed that he had constructed the whole thing?

You could ask me the same question, namely how would I respond if scientists found the tomb and body of Jesus, but it really is a different question because we live in a different time… I could easily dismiss it as not really being the body of Jesus.

But, in recent times, this is not the case and it could be reasonably proven.

RAR
That is a hypothetical question based on a false premise that does merit an answer. “What if” is irrelevant here. I happen to know that the Book of Mormon is true, and Joseph Smith was a prophet. I am not “guessing”. Therefore your “what if” question is inappropriate, and no answer to it need be given.

zerinus
 
In answer to the first part of your question, of the charge of plagiarism against the Book of Mormon because it makes the same predictions of the gathering and restoration of the Israel in the latter days that the Bible does, the answer to that is, if that is considered plagiarism, then all the Old Testament prophets were plagiarizing from each other, and New Testament prophets were plagiarizing form the Old Testament prophets, because they all prophesied of the same thing. There are two major themes that run through all OT and NT prophecy; they are: 1) the scattering, and 2) the subsequent gathering of Israel in the last days. All OT prophets have prophesied to this theme, some to a lesser and some to a greater degree. It was the most important subject of prophecy in the OT, and also in the NT. The Book of Mormon is no different. It is the product of Hebrew culture and OT literature; therefore it should not come as a surprise that its prophets should also prophesy of the same themes. …
Yes, that makes sense to me.

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