Did Joseph Smith ever quote from the Book of Mormon?

[BartBurk]

There is only one problem with that. Jesus also did not give us an “objective explanation” as to how the Holy Ghost will “guide us into all truth:” “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13); neither did John the Revelator give us an “objective explanation” as to how the Holy Spirit would “teacheth you of all things:” “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,” (1 John 2:27).

zerinus

That’s what happened. The Spirit let the Catholic Church to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus specifically declared these words to his apostles who would later have the authority to decide what the truth is. This is the authority that was handed down to the Bishops appointed by these apostles. Your contention as a Mormon is the Holy Spirit failed to accomplish that which Jesus claimed would be accomplished. You simply lack faith in Jesus’ words. The idea that the Holy Spirit abandoned the church at some point is at odds with both of the scriptures you have quoted.

 

[zerinus]

That’s what happened. The Spirit let the Catholic Church to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus specifically declared these words to his apostles who would later have the authority to decide what the truth is. This is the authority that was handed down to the Bishops appointed by these apostles.

That is a problem you Catholics. You think that God gave the Holy Ghost only to the Pope and the Magisterium, and the rest of the folks have to slavishly follow them. You are wrong about that. The Holy Ghost was given to every church member to know the truth thereby. Those were the people whom John was addressing. He was not addressing Apostles. He was addressing ordinary members. They were the ones who were to have “all truth revealed to them” by the Holy Ghost, and be guided by it into “all truth”.

Your contention as a Mormon is the Holy Spirit failed to accomplish that which Jesus claimed would be accomplished. You simply lack faith in Jesus’ words. The idea that the Holy Spirit abandoned the church at some point is at odds with both of the scriptures you have quoted.

The Holy Ghost did not fail. The people apostatized and lost the Holy Ghost, as Paul said:

1 Corinthians 3:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Holy Ghost did not fail. The people apostatized and lost the Holy Ghost, as Paul said:
1 Corinthians 3:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.zerinus

There is no proof for the mormon teaching of a great or universal “apostasy”.

 

[talter]

There is only one problem with that. Jesus also did not give us an “objective explanation” as to how the Holy Ghost will “guide us into all truth:” “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13); neither did John the Revelator give us an “objective explanation” as to how the Holy Spirit would “teacheth you of all things:” “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,” (1 John 2:27).

zerinus

1 Thes 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Or in your own teachings.

D&C 129:4, “When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.”

Faith is not without reason. So in this case subjective and objective go hand in hand. You have the subjective belief that the Holy Spirit attested to the truthfulness of the BoM but nothing objective to support it. I have the subjective belief attested to by the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is the church Christ founded and the objective belief from 2000 years of church history.

 

[RAR]

Faith is not without reason. So in this case subjective and objective go hand in hand. You have the subjective belief that the Holy Spirit attested to the truthfulness of the BoM but nothing objective to support it. I have the subjective belief attested to by the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is the church Christ founded and the objective belief from 2000 years of church history.

Nicely put.

Zerinus, I don’t want to diminish your experience, so I’ll speak more personally… I know that I can’t lay all my faith on the subjective because when dealing with the spirit realm, many (or sadly I could also say Legion) are competing for my attention. That is why God also gave us reason. Each tempers the other.

I know you said that you believe in the great apostasy because you are a mormon and not the other way around, but if you would step outside of that perspective you might be able to see how Jesus gave us everything we would need to live as the body of Christ… until he comes again.

You’ve often asked us to read and pray on whether the Book of Mormon is true… have you prayed and asked God to reveal to you whether the Catholic church is true?

RAR

 

[zerinus]

Faith is not without reason. So in this case subjective and objective go hand in hand. You have the subjective belief that the Holy Spirit attested to the truthfulness of the BoM but nothing objective to support it. I have the subjective belief attested to by the Holy Spirit that the Catholic Church is the church Christ founded and the objective belief from 2000 years of church history.

Faith is without a reason: “. . . because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29). Or as the Book of Mormon puts it:

Alma 23:

17 Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

---

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

Which agrees with what Paul says in Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence [assurance] of things not seen”

1 Thes 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Agreed! Try the Book of Mormon. It is very “Good!”

zerinus

 

[BartBurk]

That is a problem you Catholics. You think that God gave the Holy Ghost only to the Pope and the Magisterium, and the rest of the folks have to slavishly follow them. You are wrong about that. The Holy Ghost was given to every church member to know the truth thereby. Those were the people whom John was addressing. He was not addressing Apostles. He was addressing ordinary members. They were the ones who were to have “all truth revealed to them” by the Holy Ghost, and be guided by it into “all truth”.

The Holy Ghost did not fail. The people apostatized and lost the Holy Ghost, as Paul said:

1 Corinthians 3:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

zerinus

So Paul, an apostle, is providing the true teaching to his flock and correcting them as necessary. That’s what the Bishops do. Without the guidance of the Church as guided by the Holy Spirit there is no sure way to know the truth.

What would you think if every Mormon started declaring his/her truth differed from your apostles? What if they claimed to be guided by the Holy Spirit? It’s the Church as a whole, not just the individual members, which needs the guidance of the Spirit. The claim of an apostasy simply disregards the promise of Jesus regarding the Holy Spirit.

 

[zerinus]

Nicely put.

Zerinus, I don’t want to diminish your experience, so I’ll speak more personally… I know that I can’t lay all my faith on the subjective because when dealing with the spirit realm, many (or sadly I could also say Legion) are competing for my attention. That is why God also gave us reason. Each tempers the other.

It is not “subjective”. The testimony of the Holy Ghost is as “objective” as it could be. But it is intended exclusively for the recipient. It cannot be communicated, transmitted, or transferred to someone else—except by bearing testimony. That is why everyone must receive that witness for himself. My testimony will not do anybody else any good. They must obtain their own. It is like the oil in the lamps of the ten virgins. Those who had could not give of what they had to those who had not. Each had to obtain their own.

I know you said that you believe in the great apostasy because you are a mormon and not the other way around, but if you would step outside of that perspective you might be able to see how Jesus gave us everything we would need to live as the body of Christ… until he comes again.

He did give us everything; but after the Apostasy it was lost. We know that the Apostasy occurred because we know that the Church was no longer led by revelation, as it was led in the beginning by the Apostles. The priesthood authority was lost.

You’ve often asked us to read and pray on whether the Book of Mormon is true… have you prayed and asked God to reveal to you whether the Catholic church is true?

No need to. Once you know something, you know it, and you don’t need to inquire about it. That is a stupid thing to do, to inquire about something that you already know.

zerinus

 

[RAR]

No need to. Once you know something, you know it, and you don’t need to inquire about it. That is a stupid thing to do, to inquire about something that you already know.

zerinus

I understand what you mean… I’ve had the same thought when asked to pray about the Book of Mormon or when asked to reconsider my Catholic faith.

That’s fair.

RAR

 

[BartBurk]

I understand what you mean… I’ve had the same thought when asked to pray about the Book of Mormon or when asked to reconsider my Catholic faith.

That’s fair.

RAR

I’m glad I was willing to reevaluate my “testimony” of the Book of Mormon. Our feelings can lead us astray. Whatever feeling Zerinius had affirming the Book of Mormon is false. We know that because the Book of Mormon has been proven to be false by modern science.

 

[zerinus]

So Paul, an apostle, is providing the true teaching to his flock and correcting them as necessary. That’s what the Bishops do. Without the guidance of the Church as guided by the Holy Spirit there is no sure way to know the truth.

Paul was an Apostle. He received revelation. He guided the Church by revelation. After the death of the Twelve, the keys were lost, and the authority no longer existed in the church. The bishops were not successors of the Apostles. They didn’t come close. And they were not able to lead the church by revelation, as Paul and Peter and john and the rest of the Apostles were able to do. Paul himself testified aof the Apostasy. In one place he says:

2 Timothy 1:

15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Asia means all the area that Paul had been preaching, and converted to Christianity. All those letters that he wrote were addressed to those Christians in Asia. Now he is saying that they have all apostatized! In another place he says:

Acts 20:

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves * shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.*

What would you think if every Mormon started declaring his/her truth differed from your apostles? What if they claimed to be guided by the Holy Spirit? It’s the Church as a whole, not just the individual members, which needs the guidance of the Spirit. The claim of an apostasy simply disregards the promise of Jesus regarding the Holy Spirit.

You just haven’t a clue what you are talking about. Jesus gave them the Holy Ghost in order to unify them, or make them one. He did not promise them the Holy Ghost in order to diversify, or bring disunity among them. When all have the Holy Ghost, the all know the truth, and believe as one, and there will be no division among them. Where there is discord and division, there the Holy Ghost is not.

zerinus

 

[RAR]

He did give us everything; but after the Apostasy it was lost. We know that the Apostasy occurred because we know that the Church was no longer led by revelation, as it was led in the beginning by the Apostles. The priesthood authority was lost.

zerinus

Jesus was the revelation… period. The final-definitive-complete revelation of who God is and what He wants us to know.

“Word of God” = Jesus = God’s last word, if you will

The Church was and is led by revelation, the deposit of faith which Christ put into the hands of the Apostles. They themselves were not the sources of new revelations, merely the messengers and conduits of what Christ gave to them. So the death of the Apostles, the emergence of heresies, the unholiness of particular priests on down through the centuries-- none of that makes the Church lose what Christ gave it. He knew how weak we were; he wouldn’t allow our shortcomings to make us lose something so precious as the revelation of God in Jesus Christ. Just as throughout the O. T., the Jews kept breaking the covenant but God never did, so too we can trust that God would never allow his Church to completely apostatize.

RAR

 

[zerinus]

I understand what you mean… I’ve had the same thought when asked to pray about the Book of Mormon or when asked to reconsider my Catholic faith.

That’s fair.

RAR

Sure it is fair. We can’t both be right though. One of us has to be wrong. In the day of judgment, every man’s work will be tried to see of what sort it is:

1 Corinthians 3:

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

Then it will become clear who followed the truth and who did not.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Jesus was the revelation… period. The final-definitive-complete revelation of who God is and what He wants us to know.

“Word of God” = Jesus = God’s last word, if you will

The Church was and is led by revelation, the deposit of faith which Christ put into the hands of the Apostles. They themselves were not the sources of new revelations, merely the messengers and conduits of what Christ gave to them. So the death of the Apostles, the emergence of heresies, the unholiness of particular priests on down through the centuries-- none of that makes the Church lose what Christ gave it. He knew how weak we were; he wouldn’t allow our shortcomings to make us lose something so precious as the revelation of God in Jesus Christ. Just as throughout the O. T., the Jews kept breaking the covenant but God never did, so too we can trust that God would never allow his Church to completely apostatize.

RAR

Not true. The Apostles led the church by direct, immediate revelation, not just by relying on what God had already revealed. Paul Himself testified that after the Apostasy this power would be lost:

2 Timothy 3:

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud,

---

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof” means that they look like the real thing; but lack the necessary divine power that goes with it—i.e. the ability to lead and direct the Church by revelation. Well, that is the condition of the churches today. All churches are in that condition—Catholic or Protestant alike. They have “a form of godliness” (i.e. they look like, or claim to be the real thing), but they “deny the power thereof,” i.e. the ability to receive and direct the church by revelation—like you are doing right now. That is a fulfillment of that prophecy. That explains why the church is in an apostate condition, and has been for many centuries.

zerinus

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Not true. The Apostles led the church by direct, immediate revelation, not just by relying on what God had already revealed. Paul Himself testified that after the Apostasy this power would be lost:

2 Timothy 3:

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud,

---

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

zerinus

Here is another example of Mormons’ quoting Christian Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT to support their heretical and unChristian pantheology.

Notice how zerinus changes the WHOLE tenor and meaning of 2 Timothy.

Next comes a zerinus (or whyme or PaulG) claim that the verse “Jesus wept” is proof that His Church “apostasized.”

What an exercise in deconstructionism!

Robert

 

[mjf001]

He did give us everything; but after the Apostasy it was lost. We know that the Apostasy occurred because we know that the Church was no longer led by revelation, as it was led in the beginning by the Apostles. The priesthood authority was lost.

But how do you know this? You can’t give a date for the apostacy. You’ve been unable to point to the unique LDS doctrines which were taught previous to the 1800’s. So, other than the testimony of the Holy Ghost, what objective truth points to th fact that priesthood authority is lost? What evidence do you have outside of the LDS scriptures, that more public revelation was needed beyond Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God? Please, if you have this evidence, show it to us. Provide one quote from the Bible or the early church fathers that Jesus promise in Matthew pointed to an American in the 19th century. I look forward to your response.

Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You are trying to cast aspersions on the nature of my belief. Let me assure you that I am not bothered by that. My answer remains the same. I have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. I have nothing further to add to that. You are free to accept or reject that as you please. I don’t care whether you do or not.

zerinus

Please try to understand, Zer, that it’s not aspiration; it’s aspiring. I’m not criticizing your method of belief in a derogatory way; i’m seeking to understand why i should adopt the same method myself.

I believe you and i have much in common, for i have many of the same convictions. We both have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Jesus was God, but i also trust the external evidence that He proved He was God by raising Himself from the dead. We both have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Bible is true, but i also have the external evidence of scholarship that demonstrates the books of the Bible are reliable historical documents. We both have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the disciples of Jesus spoke the truth when they wrote that He was God and He rose from the dead, but i also have the external evidence of the fact that these men were willing to lose their families, their wealth, their possessions, their comfort and their lives for what they believed, and reason tells me no one in his right mind would die for what he knows is a lie.

I’m looking for external evidence that the Book of Mormon is true so that i will know that the internal evidence of the conviction i might experience is actually the testimony of the Holy Ghost and not some deception. I’m not slinging mud; i’m trying to make the reason why i should believe clearer than mud.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

For most intelligent people, mormonism has the taste of brussels sprouts, the taste that you regard as nasty. No matter how you season mormonism, it still tastes nasty. And those who eat of it, get very sick. Avoid mormonism as you would avoid brussels sprouts.

I don’t share your distaste for the Mormon faith, House, though i appreciate your cutting candor. If i ever require someone’s honest criticism, you’d be the first i’d ask!

Personally, i’ve never met a Mormon i did not like. My aunt June, Elder Howe, and the other clean-cut polite guys and gals who have visited me in the past, have all been kind to me.

Regarding their practice, i especially like that they put aside one day of the week for the family to spend together. I also admire their commitment to becoming as holy as they are able. Perhaps this authenticity i’ve witnessed in their behavior and practice is one reason why i’m seeking to see if the Church of Latter Day Saints teaches the authentic truth in its doctrine.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…

 

[zerinus]

Please try to understand, Zer, that it’s not aspiration; it’s aspiring. I’m not criticizing your method of belief in a derogatory way; i’m seeking to understand why i should adopt the same method myself.

That is not my method. I did not invent that method. It is the Lord’s method:

Matthew 7:

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Luke 11:

9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

I did not make that promise; the Lord did. If you have difficulty trustng the Lord, or exercising faith in Him, that is not my problem, is it?

I believe you and i have much in common, for i have many of the same convictions. We both have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that Jesus was God, but i also trust the external evidence that He proved He was God by raising Himself from the dead.

Actually, you don’t. You only have the testimony of what is said in the Bible. How do you know that is true? How do you know it is not a fabrication? The Jews believed, and still believe that it was fabricated by His disciples. How do you know they are not right? The answer is that you don’t. You are only trusting what is said in the Bible. The same story is told in the Book of Mormon. How do you know it is not true? You don’t, any more than you know that the Bible story is true. It is a matter of faith. You either accept it or you don’t.

We both have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Bible is true, but i also have the external evidence of scholarship that demonstrates the books of the Bible are reliable historical documents.

Actually, you don’t. There is no historical or archaeological evidence that the Israelites ever lived in Egypt. There is no evidence that the miracles of Moses ever happened. There is no evidence that the armies of the Egyptians were drowned in the Red sea. There is not evidence that they wondered in Sinai for 40 years. There is no evidence that they were fed with manna from heaven. There is no evidence that God spoke to Moses (and to all Israel) at Sinai, or that Mosses struck the rock and water came out to give them drink. There is no evidence that they conquered the Promised Land in the way in which they are said to have done. There are many historical details of the OT for which no external corroborative evidence exists. You accept them on faith, and assume that they are true. You don’t know that they are. The same thing applies to the Book of Mormon. We believe that the great historical landmarks of Central and South America belong to the Book of Mormon people; but a clear link between them and the Book of Mormon have not yet been established, because their language and culture have not yet been properly understood.

zerinus

Continued . . .\